DPS Warrior Compendium - Page 4

Anaximander · 03/11/08, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Voxx

In addition, why use Potency?

I'm interested in why Mongoose is almost universally held to be better than Potency for the OH weapon. Granted, on my spreadsheet Mongoose OH gives a very slight benefit to DPS. However, considering most fights do not resemble the optimal conditions of a spreadsheet and generally involve a lot of running about, I suspect the constant AP of potency may grant an equal or better damage contribution in real conditions.

I have not been able to find any data-parsing threads on Mongoose vs Potency OH, I'm curious if anyone has looked into this extensively.

Yuma · 03/11/08, 12:12 PM

Per the first post, its clearly desirable to stack +Hit to 9%, and then stack Expertise until Dodge immunity is achieved.

I've seen some Pawn scales tossed around for discussion on these forums, but without the Haste and Armor Penetration values, and would love to see something similar to the Enhancement Shaman post listing relative weights per stat with a bit more substance for newer players to gear with.

This said, has anyone developed a workable Pawn scale for a DPS warrior that incorporates Expertise, Haste, and Armor Penetration in its calculations?

If so, how and why did you rank the relative stats as such?

Graul · 03/11/08, 12:37 PM

Aren't "Pawn" and "SEP" essentially the same thing? The spreadsheet has SEP info.

tymoney321 · 03/11/08, 12:55 PM

Also of note, with more than one Leatherworker in the melee group Drums of War can be used in conjunction with Drums of Battle to greater effect.

This is incorrect. It would be more benefited to the group, to chain Drums of Battle and keep it up, rather than do battle+war at the same time. Unless of course you run with 5 LWers, then you can keep battle up 100% and toss a war in every 2 mins.

MikHaven · 03/11/08, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by shed
The one thing to remember about haste is that it does affect heroic spam, and I'm not sure if any spreadsheet is taking that into account. Heroic strike is pretty much the only melee ability that takes advantage of haste.

And the reply by the OP

Originally Posted by Voxx

This is true, but at any level of gear where you can't afford to Heroic Strike on every single Main-hand swing, Haste theoretically won't affect your Heroic Strike spam because you're not limited by weapon speed yet.

While it may be true about haste, I didn't want to confuse this fact, however the "Heroic strike is pretty much the only melee ability that takes advantage of haste" is completely untrue.

Cleave is THE best ability to use with haste and with two mobs. pop a haste trinket, and cleave your way to really fast cleaves with a arms build. This is of course very dependant on what and where, but I didn't want to see HS be the "prety much the only" move to use with haste.

PLUS with the change in 2.4, not yet mentioned in this very fine post; cleave, albeit everyone would rather see WW not hit CC. Cleave is one of the better abilities and is great for AOE trash pulls in kara and such.

What I tend to do is pop Sweeping, Pop either ATP or a HASTE trinket, then ww and cleave to around 1500 dps. Which is really shows the validity of good stacking abilities. Given these AOE trash in kara, are light hitters, throw up a demo right away and have 10 mobs on ya, gives you unlimited rage pretty much, to get really high damage, probably hit very hgh with much better gear than me.

Hidden · 03/11/08, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by Moogul

Haste vs. Crit, Mathematically (as I understand it)

Firstly, let's ignore all specials talents, eg. impale, flurry, deep wounds etc.

1% haste means you get 1 extra 'swing' per 100 swings. A swing can miss, be dodged, or crit as normal. It's damage is therefore (avg. swing damage) * (1 + crit - miss - dodge)
1% crit means you get 1 extra 'crit' per 100 swings. A crit turns a 100% damage hit into a 200% damage one. It's damage is therefore (avg. swing damage)

DW miss chance is 27%, I think? With 9% hit, this means 18% miss, and a normal 5.6% dodge, reduced to 3.6% (for now, let's assume 0 expertise as it's not *currently* a common stat on warrior dps gear). We'll use Hiddens example of 45% crit for now, though this is *vastly* higher than what I run with (we don't put our feral druid in the melee group, he goes with the hunters and we get the ret paladin, plus some of those stats seem a bit optimistic).

So, the damage of the extra hit from haste is therefore: (swing) * (1 + 0.45 - 0.216) = 1.234

This is for white damage only though, and haste does not affect yellow damage (bar a small amount of interaction with heroic strike), whereas crit does. Looking at my damage parses, yellow damage (excl. heroic strike) is normally around 50%, maybe slightly less, meaning that crit's effect is pretty much doubled.

This means we're comparing a crit:haste dps bonus ratio of 2:1.234

This is per 1% though, and haste *is* cheaper in terms of itembudget - 15.7 per 1% compared to 22.1 (correct me if I'm wrong) for crit.

Dividing to get per rating point, we get 0.0786 for haste and 0.0905 for crit, so Crit still comes out ahead per item budget point.

This is before we include flurry, impale, RED etc. which *all* increase the value of crit compared to haste, and this is already at very high levels of crit. At lower levels of crit, haste will decrease in effectiveness against crit.

In short, haste will pretty much *never* be better than crit, rating point for rating point. Of course, this doesn't stop particular items (eg. DST, Dragonstrike) with haste from being very good, and it's still a useful dps stat (more than some might consider). I'm looking forward to getting my JC neck in 2.4

50% damage from BT/WW and Execute only? No way, that's totally biased. I'm doing Illidan currently and I'll post my damage breakdown afterwards.
And Haste does benefit HS as it greatly increases rage generation.

Edit: After a wipe after Flame 1 died, here's my breakdown from Illidan 100%-65% and Flame from 100% to 0%:
Melee: 39%
HS: 25%
Bloodthirst: 21%
Whirlwind: 12%
Execute: 2%
Deep Wound: 1%

If you wonder why "only" 2% damage from Execute, I can only say that at my gear level BT and WW do more damage per rage than most Executes would, so I'm using it only when both are on cooldown in Execue phase.
You can clearly see that only 36% damage, a bit more than 1/3, was from BT/WW/Execute even though my gear is heavy on Crit/AP/Armor ignore and low on Hit.

Also, in current Endgame 4t6 gear you do have 6 Expertise and around 10% hit + talents, not 6%.

Kaoz · 03/11/08, 1:57 PM

Originally Posted by Anaximander

I'm interested in why Mongoose is almost universally held to be better than Potency for the OH weapon. Granted, on my spreadsheet Mongoose OH gives a very slight benefit to DPS. However, considering most fights do not resemble the optimal conditions of a spreadsheet and generally involve a lot of running about, I suspect the constant AP of potency may grant an equal or better damage contribution in real conditions.

I have not been able to find any data-parsing threads on Mongoose vs Potency OH, I'm curious if anyone has looked into this extensively.

A quality analysis of this question would be very interesting. I'm thinking your OH hit% is very important when choosing.

Moogul · 03/11/08, 2:15 PM

Originally Posted by Hidden

50% damage from BT/WW and Execute only? No way, that's totally biased. I'm doing Illidan currently and I'll post my damage breakdown afterwards.
And Haste does benefit HS as it greatly increases rage generation.

Edit: After a wipe after Flame 1 died, here's my breakdown from Illidan 100%-65% and Flame from 100% to 0%:
Melee: 39%
HS: 25%
Bloodthirst: 21%
Whirlwind: 12%
Execute: 2%
Deep Wound: 1%

If you wonder why "only" 2% damage from Execute, I can only say that at my gear level BT and WW do more damage per rage than most Executes would, so I'm using it only when both are on cooldown in Execue phase.
You can clearly see that only 36% damage, a bit more than 1/3, was from BT/WW/Execute even though my gear is heavy on Crit/AP/Armor ignore and low on Hit.

Also, in current Endgame 4t6 gear you do have 6 Expertise and around 10% hit + talents, not 6%.

Except 4t6 isn't optimal, and if I had 10% hit from gear, I certainly wouldn't be running 3/3 precision. I'm 8/9 BT, so I haven't killed Illidan yet, but typically on a full fight, with a full 20% execute phase, then yes, for me, non-melee/HS damage sources approach 50% (as in, 45-50%, varying by fight conditions). I suspect that part of this is that my HS rate is probably lower than yours due to worse gear, so my HS contribution is less, as my gear improves HS damage will probably increase at a higher rate than any other special due to the fact that I'll actually be doing it more.

Hidden · 03/11/08, 2:20 PM

Originally Posted by Moogul

Except 4t6 isn't optimal, and if I had 10% hit from gear, I certainly wouldn't be running 3/3 precision. I'm 8/9 BT, so I haven't killed Illidan yet, but typically on a full fight, with a full 20% execute phase, then yes, for me, non-melee/HS damage sources approach 50% (as in, 45-50%, varying by fight conditions). I suspect that part of this is that my HS rate is probably lower than yours due to worse gear, so my HS contribution is less, as my gear improves HS damage will probably increase at a higher rate than any other special due to the fact that I'll actually be doing it more.

4 T6 is around the same DPS as going for best DPS in every slot and in 2.4 it will be better for sure while still having much more defensive stats(armor, stamina, dodge). I don't know how you can have only 50% damage from melee and heroic strike.

Corkscrew · 03/11/08, 2:34 PM

Originally Posted by Moogul

One last thing, if you do feel you really were hitting weaker, it might be worth checking that the bosses were fully debuffed? Maybe the warlocks were slack and weren't CoRing, or you didnt have a Survival Hunter, etc. Things like this can make a big difference that you might not notice straight away.

I made a longass post on our guild forums (using information thankfully obtained from here) a while back that basically amounted to "Put CoR on shit or I'll punch you in the head," so that always gets thrown on. Survival hunter, I wish we had one - for the longest time, our hunter attendence was way too inconsistent anyway, so we never bothered to rely on them.

Far as I know, we had the same debuffs we have when I'm MS - for example, I'm not entirely sure FF gets put up on Arch as it should, because our feral is out healing/decursing for the fight.

Anyhow, without WWS or Recount, my evidence is basically anecdotal - it felt like white attacks and specials both were hitting more weakly a lot of the time, which, as you pointed out, seems strange - granted, I only have 3/5 2h Spec, but full Imp Zerker Stance should more than make up for that, so maybe it was a lack of an important debuff.

We're doing the first half+ of BT tonight, so that should be a better test, and I'll make sure the WWS guy's recording.

• LodeRunner · 03/11/08, 2:43 PM

Originally Posted by Corkscrew

Far as I know, we had the same debuffs we have when I'm MS - for example, I'm not entirely sure FF gets put up on Arch as it should, because our feral is out healing/decursing for the fight.

You should probably get the mod pDebuffList. I think it may also be known as DeMon. It's a very light mod that tracks the most common debuffs on mobs/raid bosses and if they're applied or not. It's a great visual cue to see when things like Demo Shout/CoR/FF need to be reapplied and who's slacking at it. Pretty sure you can grab it from WoWAceUpdater.

Moogul · 03/11/08, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by Corkscrew

Far as I know, we had the same debuffs we have when I'm MS - for example, I'm not entirely sure FF gets put up on Arch as it should, because our feral is out healing/decursing for the fight.

There shouldn't be anything stopping a (non-feral) druid from putting up FF in caster form. If the druids are in Tree all the time, then that's understandable, but if you have a feral healing and decursing (as feral), he should be keeping up FF.

Hidden: Yes, in 2.4 4t6 will be very good, as the new pieces are exceptional, but I wasn't talking about 2.4, and from my understanding neither were you - sorry if I misread that.

Still, the point remains that even slight variations on the numbers are not enough to promote haste above crit (and most likely str and ArP). As our gear scales through Sunwell, and our crit and hit are pushed up further, this will increase the relative value of haste, and it's a useful stat that is on many well itemized items in Sunwell, but it's still won't be better than crit, rating point for rating point.

• Mjollnir · 03/11/08, 3:26 PM

Originally Posted by Voxx

[*]Adamantite Weightstone: 12 weapon damage, 14 Crit Rating. (Mace only, 1 hour)

Fists are also affected.

Things to incorporate:
- ArP is the only stat possible to stack that affects execute output (in addition to 2/2 Imp Exec and 2/4 t6). I feel this is worth mentioning.
- Values for AP in which BT is more beneficial at 30rage / 100rage. The numbers elude me at work, I can PM them to you later today if no one else has already.
- WF Totem consumes a Flurry charge if the first attack is a crit. Thus, the value of crit is lessened in a raid environment, and stacking AP is the answer. (Especially so for Fury).
- 0/47/14 is a very fun alternative to 17/44/0 and the dps loss is a mere 3-4% (speculative). It offers burst survivability in addition to its worth is heightened on bleed immune mobs.

Moogul · 03/11/08, 3:40 PM

Originally Posted by Mjollnir

Fists are also affected.

Things to incorporate:
- ArP is the only stat possible to stack that affects execute output (in addition to 2/2 Imp Exec and 2/4 t6). I feel this is worth mentioning..

You forget that crit will also increase your average Execute damage. I generally don't have recklessness up for 100% of my executing.

• Apate · 03/11/08, 4:01 PM

Originally Posted by Moogul

You forget that crit will also increase your average Execute damage. I generally don't have recklessness up for 100% of my executing.

For that matter, anything that increases the amount of rage gained during the GCD will affect your average execute damage, it jut won't increase the damage done by a minimum-rage execute.

Machinator · 03/11/08, 4:20 PM

Im not saying it doesnt count, I was more concerned with the people who read it and misinterpret it, which I have seen a fair amount of. But I guess no one can do much about that so I'll shut up about it. Arms vs Fury should probably be in the other thread anyway.

One thing that no one has mentioned on haste is the increase of procs you get from more swings. I dont think its enough to make it worth more than crit and many have hidden cooldowns now but if you are using something like [Madness of the Betrayer] which has no cooldown it could add up.

Moogul · 03/11/08, 4:44 PM

Originally Posted by Machinator

One thing that no one has mentioned on haste is the increase of procs you get from more swings. I dont think its enough to make it worth more than crit and many have hidden cooldowns now but if you are using something like [Madness of the Betrayer] which has no cooldown it could add up.

I can't remember in which thread it's in, but I believe it's been shown that PPM effects recalculate based on haste, so that haste does *not* actually give more procs for PPM-based stuff (which is a pity, and I really wonder why they did this - it's not like haste stacking is actually worth it since the amount-per-rating nerf, it would be a nice little tidbit in haste's favour).

• Mjollnir · 03/11/08, 5:10 PM

0/2 Imp Execute 0/4 t6:
Execute @ 15rage: 925
Execute @ 30rage: 1240 ; AP equiv for BT: 2755.5
Execute @ 100rage: 2710 ; AP equiv for BT: 6022.5

2/2 Imp Execute 4/4 t6:
Execute @ 7rage: 925
Execute @ 30rage: 1408 ; AP equiv for BT: 2816
Execute @ 100rage: 2878 ; AP equiv for BT: 5756

Obviously at 30rage an averagely geared Fury warrior in a raid setting will make better use of BT for that GCD, whereas I've not seen any reports of warriors breaking 6k AP even counting procs, so 100rage GCD usage is best suited for Execute. This is mentioned because with WF+haste pot+haste proc+trinks+racials+DW+Recklessness etc.. many a raiding warrior will be sitting on 100rage by the time GCD is available again.

For fun:
Assuming fully de-armored mob(possible with current gear+Executioner), 2/2 Imp Exec, 2/4 t6, RED, Impale, DW, the highest normal Execute crit is 7722.25

• Mjollnir · 03/11/08, 5:44 PM

Originally Posted by Bronwyn

Very nice post, thank you!!

Just one thing I'm really looking for (and still haven't found) would be a diagram of the effectiveness of AP increase vs. hit, crit, haste and armor pen increase.

Right now, I'm sitting at 900 armor pen and I just don't know if getting 30 Haste is better than 60 Armor Pen for example.

As to your survival section:
You might want to add that in specific situations it can be lifesaving to change from Battle Shout to Commanding Shout, example: the moment when Naj'entus puts up his shield, when you get poisoned in the Council fight, when you get ported by mother, during Illidan Phase II, etc.

You might also add a section with the best available gear for each slot - or even different versions for a haste build, crit build, armor pen build.

Thanks,
Bronwynn

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t21713-r...l_development/
I am not too familiar with coding, so I'm holding my breath this turns out for warriors.

• Astrylian · 03/11/08, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by Mjollnir

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t21713-r...l_development/
I am not too familiar with coding, so I'm holding my breath this turns out for warriors.

A guy named Kaider (gamemaster65@hotmail.com) asked about starting a DPS Warrior model for Rawr a while back, and I added him to the project so he could start work on it, but he's never checked anything in or said anything since then... If anyone is interested in developing a DPSWarr model, let me know, ask Kaider if he has any progress, etc.

• Mjollnir · 03/11/08, 6:00 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

A guy named Kaider (gamemaster65@hotmail.com) asked about starting a DPS Warrior model for Rawr a while back, and I added him to the project so he could start work on it, but he's never checked anything in or said anything since then... If anyone is interested in developing a DPSWarr model, let me know, ask Kaider if he has any progress, etc.

How quick can one learn the coding? I am familiar with MatLab which is based on C+ kernel.

• Astrylian · 03/11/08, 6:05 PM

Rawr and its models are written in C#, on the .NET Framework 2.0 using WinForms. You can find tutorials for C# online in many places.