Hozz

For 17/44 the T6 Shoulders are currently the best T6 piece, relative to what else is available. So it makes sense to go shoulders+belt+bracers+boots if you are looking for a longterm 4 piece T6.

I will likely do that, but boy did we ever get short-changed on set bonuses. Ours are completely terrible compared to most (all?) of the other DPS class set bonuses.

 

Shha

Wrong. That math is basically wrong and let me explain it:

First of all Id say i often pass 50% crit in raids, but lets use 45% as example. Lets use 0% haste as example too, and lets assume 88 rating to make the differences more noticable. Lets assume 15% hit rate with talents and stuff which seems popular for DW. So 13% miss rate

88 rating =4% crit vs 5.5% haste.

over 200 swings time (again for ease of calculations) with the extra crit (49% total) You will do:

98 crits
19 hits
50 Glancings
26 Misses
7 dodges


With haste there will be 211 swings with 45% crit rate
95 crits
28,22 hits
52.75 Glancings
7,6 dodges
27,43% Misses

We "lose" 3 crits, we "gain" 2.75 glancing and 9.22 hits. Counting crits as 2.1 of hit (assuming half of the damage from heroic and thus affected by impale) and glancing as 0.75 of a hit, we end up with approximately 5 "free" hits more with haste.

Since the crit setup base "hit equivalent" was 98x2.1+19+50x.75 = 262.3 "hits". Adding 5 to it means increasing the damage by 1.9%.

So ignoring Flurry, and yellow damage, 88 haste gives you 1.9% more damage then 88 crit.
Now lets add yellow damage roughly. Haste affects around 70% of my typical damage so :

70%x1.9% = 1.33% haste benefit
30% x (149/145) = 0.83% = crit benefit

Overall haste will give us 0.5% damage increase.

That doesnt count flurry effect into account. Im not gonna model Flurry in any "proper" way here. THere are spreadsheets/simulators for that. Just a quick glance though shows that with around 50% crit the uptime should be over 94%, and that 4% crit doesnt change all that much - like 91% to 93%. 2% uptime of a 25% attack haste, is around 0.5% damage increase on swings only. Overall haste is a bit ahead.



You can find a lot of gaps in my math. I still see it as closer to truth though - yours was fine except for one thing - you assumed that crit adds 100% damage. Well thats only true for people with 0% crit. At 45% level 1% crit adds 1.46/145 = 0.69% damage only not 1%.

Anyway - we have pretty impressively working spreadsheets on these forums. They all show haste for me as far superior stats. A bit better then crit now in BT, WAY better in sunwell. My sep values are around :

1crit =2.2 ap 1 haste =2.4 ap now with my gear (i consider my gear best possible, without warglaives).
1crit =2.2 ap 1 haste =-2.8 ap with best sunwell gear.

Unless you can show why the spreadsheets are wrong, id say the burden is on you to prove otherwise.

 

Tilted

Just glancing at it I see one major omission: you're only looking at attacks affected by the swing timer. The math above completely ignores specials, which receive zero benefit from haste, and an inflated benefit from crit thanks to Impale. Considering the percentage of total damage any DPS warrior build gets from specials, this simply cannot be ignored.

 

Khurzog

well I think he has been looking at yellow hits... maybe the 70% are a little high (but 60-65% white + heroic isn't that far away) but all in all I think did a quite good approximation ...

 

Tilted

Gah, I fail at reading. I see now, though I'm not sure where the 149/145 comes from.

 

Moogul

I *think* that he's doing 100 + 49 where 100 = hits, and 49 = extra damage from crits (a crit is like having an extra hit's worth of damage), so 149 for 49% crit, and 45 for 45% crit. Of course, as mentioned this ignores impale (and deep wounds and RED), and also ignores dodge (100 swings would actually be something like 100 - miss + crit * 1.266).

Anyway, I'll try to respond in detail when I get back from work. Thanks for showing your working Shha, I do appreciate, though (as I suspect you'll expect) I have a few points I disagree with you on.

 

Overcome

Has anyone mathcrafted out the theoretical haste vale of crit?

IE:

1% crit over 100 swings yields 1 crit. 97 swings are unhasted, 3 swings are hasted.

Using a 3.0 weapon (just for ease sake)

**0% crit time**
100 swings unhasted = 300 seconds

**1% crit time**
(97*3.0)+(3*2.1) = (291)+(6.3) = 297.3

Quickens the by 2.7 seconds, or only taking 99.1% of the unhastened time. So you could argue 1crit also equals 0.90% haste at these extremes. Granted the curve would downgrade rapidly with more crit.

I think haste is a nice rogue stat, but I'd prefer Blizzard would keep it off Fury plate and keep loading us up with ArP, AP and crit.

 

Shha

Yea, well I wasnt trying really to make a working model of dps here - as I mentioned, there are spreadsheets right at these forums. They all show haste as best stat (sometimes even "too good" for my liking), so i made a very rough approximation to show where it comes from.

To repeat it in bullet points, while haste vs crit is disputable "on its own", there are factors increasing haste effectiveness:

- More procs, at least from some stuff (a lot of it is on hidden cooldown, and the only benefit is slightly more reliable trigger) - Namely WF (thats a BIG ommitement in my post, in favor of my concept - a hit gained by haste can proc wf at normal 20% rate, a crit wont).

- You start at 0 haste when going to sunwell, while around 45% crit. Thats a HUGE factor here. If both stats are at 0, then crit will pull ahead (well even without flurry, although flurry is a huge factor too). However both haste and crit have "diminishing returns" (as all warrior stats, save for ArP which is capped on other hand), and crit is already really high. As usual some "balance" is recommended.

In sunwell gear i can reach around 30% average haste (that is not from straight haste rating alone - mongoose proc, DST, haste pots etc) over the course of the fight. 45% crit (it doesnt really go up), and decent ArP/Ap. Its closer to the mentioned "balance".

Overall im really happy with itemization made for dw warriors in sunwell. Haste items arent overloaded on it, it seems ill end up with a really well balanced stats.

 

Shha

Ok so what YOU said, is that 1% crit = 0.9% haste. So haste is valued 1.1 times more approx then crit per percent. Per rating it goes up to around 1.6 times more for haste, and improves as crit rating goes up. You are contradicting yourself, showing math (heaving simplified) that shows haste superiority, then saying you dont want haste.

 

Moogul

This goes for me too - I think they've reached a pretty nice balance. I'm looking forward to picking up some haste whilst still going strong on crit, ArP and str.

 

Overcome

I was taking into account the knowledge that crit does 2x damage. I was trying to show that when you get 1% crit you also get 0.90% haste as an added bonus.

Until you reach 100% flurry uptime the hastening rules off crit would always apply, they would just apply to a lesser degree.

Basically since you take 99.1% of the time to execute all your hits with 1 crit (which is basically 1 free hit) its like you hit 1.90 more times. If you had 1% haste it would be like you hit 1.00 more times.

This is all napkin math I'm sure a graff would work better if some formula could be made up.

 

Shha

Well yes and no, with typical raid stats, 4% crit adds you around 1% flurry uptime. So 0.22 seems more accurate. Either way, i guess i failed reading a bit and sorry for that.

 

• LodeRunner

Maybe this is just poorly worded on your part but what do you mean by "hitting the Arp cap"? You think Warriors are going to start hitting 2k armor pen passively considering the itemization is shifting towards slotted items with +haste? I really really like Armor Pen, but with Executioner I don't think I go past 1500 at most (I'm trying to remember the stats of my gear while at work). Frankly I always wanted to get to a point in Armor Pen where Executioner was no longer needed, but I doubt that will be possible. I'm going to lose 350 armor pen if I upgrade the Gurtogg pants to the Felmyst pants that clearly have a more heaping pile of stats, and 3 sockets!
I just don't see it happening.

Can't you see what I'm doing here? I'm holding my own urine in a cup because I have responsibilities. Won't you help?

 

Bloodvenom

I have a Syphon, Rising Tide, and Rod of the Sun King, which would be the best MH/OH combination for maximum PVE dps output?

This is of course with the 17/44 Setup

 

Hidden

Rod of the Sun King/Rising Tide probably.

 

Bloodvenom

Any real reason behind that combination? I have tried the spreadsheets on the EJ posts and the numbers are always inconclusive to make any real decision.

 

Bevz

Yeah, apolgoies it was bad wording. I meant the soft cap of roughly 1350 before exectioner. Im not sure if you have noticed but the Felmyst pants do come with some armour penetration albeit not as much, you would lose 126 in total but as you said gain a heap of other stats.

In regards to dropping executioner and stacking arp gear it doesnt seem practical. The only other enchant worth using would be mongoose but unlike armour penetration, the crit gained from mongoose can be gotten through other means. You really are just better gemming for crit and keeping the executioner.

 

• Mjollnir

Thinking out loud:
It would be great to add a 'Gear' sub-section to the OP. The one in the Protection Warrior thread is perfect.
Slot: 3-4 options with the ratings (best in slot and alternatives)
The only one I know offhand is: Tabard: Purple Trophy Tabard of the Illidari (best in slot)

 

Moogul

No way, there's multiple tabards better than that.

If we did a gear list, it'd have to have separate setups for DW and 2H, whilst many bits are shared, some rate differently for the two types.

From what I recall off the top of my head, the best-in-slot gear (pre-2.4) for a DW Fury warrior is something like (feel free to disagree):

[Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
[Choker of Endless Nightmares]
[Onslaught Shoulderblades]
[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]
[Midnight Chestguard]
[Deadly Cuffs]
[Grips of Silent Justice]
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]
[Legguards of Endless Rage]
[Dreadboots of the Legion]
[Ancient Amani Longbow]

Plus Warglaives of course. I'll leave trinkets out of it for now, and rings too - I can't remember exactly how they rank. Of course, Solarian's Sapphire should always be the top trinket if you're in a decent group.

 

• Mjollnir

I knew you'd bite.
With regards to actual gear, I think for many slots it's too close to call. Cat's Edge for MS/BF, Glaives for DW are obvious due to their ilvl, but many others are so diversely itemized that depending on an individual's setup, a specific item might yield more of an upgrade than another. By the same token, a specific item would be weighted more or less by an individual for the setup that suits their spec/playstyle.
Again, the prot warrior listing is perfect- several options with point values listed.

 

Natural

Rising tide & Rod.

Get the Syphon out of the raid--it eats up charges of Improved Shadowbolt.

 

Moogul

Well personally, the only one I'm not sure about in the list I posted is the leg slot - the divine retribution are also very good, as are the mail ones from Azgalor if I recall correctly.

 

Bevz

Lets have an updated SUnWeLLz version please!

 

Hidden