Recab

A few questions regarding my current weapons. I'm currently using Dragonstrike/Talon. I know that there are better options for an OH per the spread-sheet. But the spread sheet does not seem to be taking in the flurry "bug" on account of adding dps, or the fact that the human racial is currently bugged.
Currently our guild has everything on farm with the exception of Illidan and I can whip up a 1850 2v2 team for s3 weapons if needed. Do you guys think it would be worth the time/effort/dkp to upgrade my weapons or should I just wait until 2.4 to pick up the fist weapons?

 

Voxx

Thanks for keeping the thread alive with posts, I'll get to work on a gear section when I can put some more time into it. This week's been stuffed full of exams so I've not had the chance yet.

 

issei

The 2.4 badge fist weapons are actually worse than the s3 2.6 1-handers, especially if your character is of a race that can take advantage of expertise bonuses.

 

Shha

Dragonstrike is the best weapon save for warglaives for MH. There is nothing coming close to the haste it offers really;/
For OH i think s3 is still the best presunwell choice.

 

Recab

Thank you for the info but my question is still unanswered.

Would using a s3 offhand outweigh the same-weapon extra charge of flurry i gain from using talon?

 

• Mjollnir

If I'm not mistaken, this is not the case. Even with identical speed weapons, you will end up having MH/OH swings split. Even with a 2.7/2.7 setup (for example), you will not retain a simultaneous strike over the course of a boss fight.
The main advantages to slow/slow MH/OH setup are: bigger WW values, Deep Wounds is worth more and potentially ticks for longer, and extra Flurry *when* MH/OH speeds are matched.
None of the 3 listed truly boost your dps by more than a couple pennies.

 

Shha

Tbh this "same speed weapon" extra flurry doesnt seem to work in reality for me. I tested it in blasted lands, when i just recently switched to dragonstrike from 2xs3. My flurry uptime went UP, although just a little. Mind it, I was testing it with a friend to attack from behind, and avoid parries.

 

Recab

I've been using the same two weapons for over 6 months now and I've yet to ever see my weapon attacks "split", can you please post where you received the information that your MH/OH will split when using same speed weapons?

Thanks.

 

Shha

They split if YOU parry, thus the blasted lands mobs testing, most people use needs to be very careful to avoid this effect.

 

Recab

This leads back to my original question, would using a S3 or 2.4-badge weapon be worth losing the extra flurry charge?

The spreadsheet does not list this effect, which puts me in a bit of a rough spot.

 

• Mjollnir

Correct, about the parries that is. That's all I am familiar with. I'm not sure if lag can break simultaneous strikes or WF procs due to lag either.

Talon pros: 1 25% hastened 'gain'. Flurry uptime usually being around 80-85%. 80% being more conservative. 96dps not counting stats.
s3 pros: Other option being 103dps not counting stats.

'Strike is a mace, Talon a sword = full racial benefits. S3 I'd assume would be either of the two for the same reasons.

25% x .8 = 20% 'consistent' haste gain from OH for a simultaneous strike. 6 swings during a usual 5.
Talon: 260.5 avg strike: 5 + 1 freebie = 1563
s3: 268 avg strike: 5 strikes = 1340

What this model doesn't take into account is partial Flurried swings, which would weigh favorably for the s3. Also, there is better stat allocation on the Talon. This being napkin math of weapon dps only.

 

Shha

Well there are multiple things affecting flurry, most not even perfectly investigated. However to nail some of them.

Even if we assume that taalon gives you one extra swing's CHANCE to proc flurry its not not changing that much.

Using the typical 1-(1-c)^4 for 40% crit rate raid buffed (i sport a lot more but lets start on lower side) Flurry uptime = 87%. In fact its lower becuse of the bug (Last flurry charge bug). But lets assume its not there (going to be fixed in 2.4).

Adding 1 swing because of synced weapons, would make it 1-(1-c)^5. Flurry uptime = 92%. We gained 5% flurry uptime, which turns our attack speed from 1+25%*87% to 1+25%*92% or 1.2175 to 1.23. Thats ONE percent more attacks. In this scenario matching weapon speeds added AT MOST one percent white swings. Being that they provde 70% of your damage, we can say its 0.7% more damage. Given how i do around 2k dps on typical tank and spank encounter, I would gain 14 dps. (in fact less, because my crit rate is higher, and flurry has diminishing returns when it comes to that).

What are the "cons". Well worse weapon would be one of it. Stats alone talon has 15 more agility 6 ap and 12 hit vs 21 crit and 49 ArP. In general 15 agility with kings = 11 crit and 49 ArP = 30ap. So its 12 hit vs 10 crit and 24 ap. Hit is valued at 0.6 of crit so more or less you lose 3 crit and 24 ap by going towards talon, to round it up assume its 30 ap. 30ap is more or less 0.6% of your dps (assuming 5k "effective ap" which comes from adding ap + weapon damage). So talon advantage went down to 5.6 dps. Now the pure white swings from OH ... talon has 7 dps less. 7 dps x average haste of 1.35 with dragonstrike/dst/heroism/haste. thats 9.5dps. Multiply it by OH penalty and its around 5.9dps. And thats not counting crits.

Also to note. Current bug with last charge of flurry not being refreshed from white hits, greatly reduces "matched" weapons effectiveness. Just imagine - 2.6x2 weapon, and you start with flurry.

0.0 2 swings - 1 charge left
2.6 2 swings - flurry drops off. It doesnt matter if you critted or not, it just drops because of bug.

if you had 2.6.+2.7

0.0 2 swings - 1 charge left
2.6 flurry drops off no matter what
2.7 flurry has chance of proccing (40% in the example).

 

• Mjollnir

I ignored this. You would have a much greater Flurry uptime due to sync'ed weapons alongside making more use of Flurry.
Also, ya, dunno why I said Talon was better itemized. I had just woke up perhaps?

 

Oliria

I have to ask now..

I am a human warrior, I use S2/talon atm, hoping for blade of infamy - but im very curious about the human racial bug, will it remain? or do blizzard have plans about fixing it in the near future..

according to spreadsheet none of the maces I can get (sun king, syphon, ehm..) but should I get a S2 mace? instead of my S2 sword.. I would ofc like S3 - but Im not much of a PvP'er, and I find it boring so not really up for getting my rating up (might wait for S4 and see if the requirement is within limits)

what do you guys think? just keep the swords and go for blade of infamy, or get some kind of mace?

 

Machinator

Much greater uptime is a bit of an overstatement. You are probably around 80-90% unsynced anyway. Synced weapons only give give you that extra charge if you dont crit in the time of 3 swings anyway.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Langie

The Human Racialbug will be fixed in 2.4, because the expertise for both weapons will be calculated seperatly. In the charscreen on PTR orcs with dual axes have 5/5 expertise and Humans using Mace/Sword also have 5/5 expertise. So take the best weapons you can get, mace or sword it doesn´t matter when 2.4 goes live.

 

Shha

Well Mjollnir you are aware of the bug that makes flurry unable to proc from white hit if there is one charge left. This bug really works against the "synced" setup. Basically if you lets say start with flull flurry charges and dont crit on one double swing, then flurry WILL drop after next 2 white swings unless you crit an instant. So in this situation , a full flurry does work for 4 charges with synced weapons, but it can be only refreshed by specials/first 2 swings. All in all it balances out. After 2.4 i believe synced weapons will show better results. As i said, atm , just over few hours of testing, a 2.7+2.6 setup produced HIGHER flurry uptime then 2.6x2.

 

• Mjollnir

Yes Shha, you're correct. I had posted just after waking, and I do recall Blizz admitting to a bug where the last Flurry charge will expire regardless if a crit is produced on that swing or not. Vive 2.4 and when it finally gets released.

Machinator, in theory, wouldn't a synced setup yield:
Swing_MH1/Swing_OH1. Either or crits, it matters not which. Flurry begins.
Swing_MH2/Swing_OH2. Neither crit. 1 charge left.
Swing_MH3/Swing_OH3. Either or crits, it matters not which. Flurry stops and starts.
I need 1 crit per 4 swings to sustain Flurry.
Whereas:
Swing_MH1. Crit. Flurry beings.
Swing_OH1. Nothing. 2 charges left.
Swing_MH2. Nothing. 1 charge left.
Swing_OH2. Crit. Flurry stops and starts.
I need 1 crit per 3 swings to sustain Flurry.
Obviously we would need to avoid the whole '33.3% crit gives you perma-Flurry' myth.

Hrmm, could it be warriors will now be affected by hunter itemization? The dps of the weapons isn't significant compared to the [synced] speed? Odd. You bring an interesting point to light Recab.

 

Shha

Right now with the bug its like
Swing_MH1/Swing_OH1. Either or crits, it matters not which. Flurry begins.
Swing_MH2/Swing_OH2. Neither crit. 1 charge left.
Swing_MH3/Swing_OH3. Either or crits, it matters not which. Flurry STARTS and STOPS (thats the bug, flurry on that crit will be refreshed but THEN server will proc the "no charges left" and remove the whole 3 stack) . No matter if you critted or not, flurry fades for the next swing.

 

• Mjollnir

WF procs can be dodged, and I'd assume be parried etc.
gifu_teron_gorefiend.avi - FileFront.com
This is the imbue, but I'd find it hard to believe the totem would have a completely rewritten mechanic behind it.

 

Ogre

i looked through the old thread and through this one. This is the first time i have seen this mentioned. I was just wondering if this was true or not.

 

Polishedhead

While we're on the subject of gear i thought i'd ask 2 questions regarding Jewelcrafting:

Firstly the new neck, from what i can see there's only one new neck in 2.4 for melee dps that doesn't require a profession, and that seems to be stacked with Agility. The neck from Jewelcrafting looks like it's going to be the best neck in 2.4 for us, whatever spec (arms/fury), am i right here or am i missing something? The reason i ask is because atm i'm an alchemist and will be rerolling to JC if HKC does end up being our best.
[Hard Khorium Choker] - JC required Neck
[Clutch of Demise] - New melee Neck

[Choker of Serrated Blades]/[Choker of Endless Nightmares] - Old favourites.

Secondly, the new JC BoP trinket. (doesn't actually say requires JC, but it's BoP).

[Figurine - Shadowsong Panther]
An interesting item we have here, notice it has a 1.5 minute cooldown which will work perfectly along with Deathwish unlike the current 2 minute cooldown trinkets. It has less stats and less ap on use (and over time) but i'm thinking the fact it stacks with Deathwish will make it better than Zul'jin's trinket (which never drops for me, i use Bloodlust), with that said, 2 min CD trinkets can be used with pots, and my racial; deathwish can't always. Note im arms, so pots are less useful for me than if i was fury.

I haven't looked properly at the new 2.4 trinkets and i guess they'll be better(?) but what do you think of Figurine Vs Berserker's?

 

Katrael

I'd agree that the JC neck is best in slot for warriors, and you also get the JC specific gems for a bit of extra crit and AP. The trinket though I just don't see as being valuable for most people, except those still stuck using Bloodlust Broach. The interaction with deathwish is certainly nice though, I hadn't caught the shorter CD on it when I looked at it last.

As far as surpassing Berserker's Call, I think it would come down to fight length. A fight that allows for two uses of DW will increase the relative value of the panther, but if the fight lasts long enough for a third usage of Deathwish, BC should pull ahead again, as it will have synced back up with the DW cooldown. Obviously it represents an upgrade over BB, as even without the deathwish interaction it averages to more AP.

 

• Mjollnir

If Natural said it, I'm sure he's seen it in action. You can always test it yourself.

 

Bad Poetry

Im actually in a bit of a dead end at the moment. I have the option for three direct weapon setups.
DS/ToA , S3/S3 (swords, im human) and 2.4 Fists

I have ran the numbers through the dps spread sheets and surprisingly my highest dps result comes form using a fastoffhand over a slow main hand, but this didnt seem right.

Any chance i could get an opinion on the three(four?) options i have?

32% crit, 1920AP, 175Hit, 390 pen weaponless ubuffed stats at present