Machinator

Im not exactly sure what you are getting at. The totem and weapon enchant are completely different in one is a special attack and one is not.


My point with synced weapons wasnt really with the bug with flurry, but if synced speeds increase flurry uptime, is it really that significant? The questions seem to always be should I pass on this higher dps weapon to keep matched speeds.
I think a better approach is to look at the rage profiles from matched/unmatched and see how they compare. This isnt going to be modeled in sheets, but unmatched would have smoother generation right?

"Information is ammunition."

 

• Mjollnir

I was just kinda throwing it out there. If the totem and imbue behave differently, ignore my previous post.

As far as rage generation, wouldn't the goal to ultimately be consistent rage, rather than smooth? Not being devil's advocate but; I would be more interesting in knowing I will have the rage I need when I need it.

 

Anaximander

This may result from your Execute DPS going up significantly by using faster weapons. I know the optimal setup for me involves using Slow/Slow for BT/WW cycle dps, then switching to Fast/Fast for execute phase. You can determine this easily by comparing weapon setups using the Dr_allcom3/Grim 13 spreadsheets.

 

Kaoz

Executing with fast weapons is better than maintaining the rotation? Even at highest end gear?

If so, what are the top 5ish best execute weapons?

 

Eledorian

I think the part of "highest end gear" applies to using BT over execute when you have > 30 rage, I might be wrong on that though.

I reckon the current best combo would be 2x Swiftsteel Bludgeon, but I reckon anything moderatly fast (1.50 or faster) with decent stats/dps would suffice as execute combo.

 

Machinator

They are different things, consistent has (mostly) to do with hit %, smooth has to do with speed. Say you can have 100 rage every 5 secs or 20 rage every second. Both are consistent and both are the same avg rage/s, but 20 every second will give you a better cycle if there is any chance to miss. Now this isnt true if you have more rage than you use anyway, but at that point an extra couple % flurry uptime isnt going to do much.

"Information is ammunition."

 

semideaf

I myself use 21/40/0 but I am scratching my head a little bit after looking at this build. I know you mention that there are a lot of variations to this setup but maybe someone could explain why you would want 5/5 in 2H Weapon Specialization and not 3/5 in it and 2/2 in Impale. 20% more crit seems to be a better choice than 2% more dmg. Also I've always heard/read that 5/5 Deflection is a must in cases of accidental aggro or off tanking. I see only 2/5 in this build and then 3/5 in Iron Will. I'd think Iron Will would only be useful for fights like Kaz'rogal with his War Stomp. Has this changed?

I would like to propose this build:
World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

I would change Precision from 3/3 to either 2/3 Precision and 1/2 Imp Execute or Piercing Howl or 1/3 and 2/2 in Imp Execute or 0/3 Precision and 2/2 Imp Execute and 1/1 Piercing Howl.

 

Neldy

A quick query in regards to the type of weapons that would be best suited.

Bliz have been kind enough to give us slow OH's, obtainable via Arenas, clearly aimed at warriors and shammys. However, if you wish to dual wield anything other than fists you have to purchase the more expensive 2.6 speed twice.

I've noticed that the slow sword has different min-max damage (214-322 for the sword compared to 187-349 that all the other s3 2.6 speed weapons have axe,mace,fist).

As far as I can understand, in 2.4 the expertise bonus for being human will apply to each weapon held, thus holding two swords will yield 10 expertise.

Is there any variation in dps in choosing the two swords with the different min-max over say the axes or fists?

 

Shha

While impale isnt the best of talents, its not that bad either. Simple math shows for 2h warriors:

- Usual white damage = around 45%, with deep wounds and such MAYBE 50%.
- remaining 50% damage is affected by impale on crits, increasing damage by 10%. Now common mistake is "If i crit 33% of the time, it means impale affects 33%*50%=16.6% of my damage, aka increasing my damage by 16.6%x10% = 1.66%. 2h spec is better for 2 points". Well thats wrong.

33% (Pretty LOW crit rate for a 2h warrior) crit means, that crit is already responsible for 50% of your damage (33%x2 = crit damage, 66%x1 = non crit damage). Using this for your calculations impale increases the damage by 50%x50%x10%=2.5% and is better then 2h spec. In general impale goes ahead of 2h spec if your crit is above 25%.


It actually remains interesting if maybe impale is the talent to drop for pvp builds (crit rate below 25% on resilience guys , and crits doing reduced damage). However I dont know how impale coexists with resilience reduction, and im to lazy to give it more effort then just mentioning it.

 

◊ Ugato

Wouldn't this sort of activity run counter to the practice of speed-sync'd weapons? pushing more toward the 2.6/2.7 setup for DW? The basic theory - with unsync'd weapons, you won't (necessarily) be forced to wait 2.6(7) seconds to regain flurry after this bug. Also, you still have the basic principle of slower OH to force more flurry charges to the MH. It's late, and I'm not that great at showing the math. Anyone care to compare this? I also realize it'd be kinda hard to represent these random occurances as solid numbers, as they're mostly a 'probability' factor. It's at least food for thought.

 

cypresshill

Yeah, when a boss is below 20%, i try to keep ms and whirlwind on cooldown, and execute down any extra rage. Pretty sure this is higher dps than both normal rotation and duel wield execute spam. If you wanna do some math for it be my guess, but im pretty sure

 

Langie

A DW-Warrior doesn´t have any attack which scales with weapondmg so only the dps matters if the speed of the weapons are the same. You have nothing from burst dmg and the different min/maxdmg will equal out by time.

But you do !not! get 10 expertise when 2.4 goes live. Every hand will be calculated seperatly so you will have 5 exp for MH and 5 exp for OH if you wear two Swords. Thesame if you wear one Sword and one Mace.

Plus only the sword is expensive at the arena, there is a cheap 2.6 OHaxe and a cheap 2.6 OHFist.

 

Bad Poetry

Going on form this, I'm a human but i don't relish the thought of spending 2650 x 2 to obtain two slow sword's, whilst i still require my Chest and to upgrade my Stormherald (though i will get the s3 2h then bank for season 4 armour)

Would i be better going S/F swords or S/S Sword/Fist , i know that the 5 expertise equates to roughly 4.1DPs but i am unsure of the dps of the added damage from using a slow offhand.

So basically would i pull better numbers going s/f swords or s/s sword/fist

Edit: Some grammar

 

Langie

According to Grim´s Spreadsheet I would do better cycledps when using Sword MH and a slow OH, Axe for example (as a human on my gearlvl). This is due to BS & HS gain the benefit from the MHexpertise and only WW is affected bye the loss of the expertise on OH, but the slow speed of the weapon will equal this out. You will see some more OH-misses but i think with propper ragemanagment you won´t see any difference at all.
With slow+slow you will see more WW dmg and a slighty higher flurryuptime. I suggest that you should get a sword in MH and a slow weapon in OH no matter what kind of weapon it is (sword preferred)

 

Bad Poetry

I was thinking along the same lines.
OH will more then likely be the s3 fist since i dislike how the s3 axe looks.
Rage management isnt really an issue. i hold it well now using twin 2.7's.
Next season after i obtain my 2h and 4 piece armour set i will probally get the slow S4 sword for Mh and drop the S3 one into my OH, but thats a ways away,

Thank you for the expediant reply

 

Salted

I've actually done this...and its seriously not bad. The spec is something like 26/35/0. Back in our SSC farming rotation there was room to try out new things and one of them was DW Sword spec. In a night of SSC, sword spec actually came out SLIGHTLY ahead of 17/44, and this was with inferior weapons (talon w/ potency + unenchanted S2 offhand vs T3 BS axe w/ mongoose and OH S2 mace w/ potency).

HOWEVER, its spikey. Higher highs and lower lows, and no threat reduction from imp. zerker stance. Giving up 10% AP and that 250AP rage dump to some seems unthinkable, but for deathwish and extra attacks, its not a bad trade-off.... and will definately turn some heads when they inspect you.

Edit: I think DW sword spec should be listed as a viable spec.


BTW, great thread. Been looking for something a bit leaner than 3,200 posts....

 

Kaoz

It'd be nice to get a similar gear comparison at higher levels of gear. It seems like DW sword spec would scale better than DW Fury, someone trying it out seriously and posting some results would be very interesting.

 

Shha

Problem with DW SS build scaling, is that it stressed factors that arent compatible with warriors in general.

- More stress on hit. Sword specs proc off hits, so you cant miss too much, Hit normally is of low value for warriors, and pumping it up just for sword spec seems meh.

- Favors fastest offhands possible. Oh sword specs proc MH swings, so you are looking for a setup with biggest possible difference between MH and OH - something like Warglaives to be honest. Other setups at t6 content level would be i guess vengeful sword+mother OH. Again its counterproductive with other warrior abilities.

- More stress on white damage. Your BT/WW will hit for less with lower ap, so heroic/white damage will be a bigger % in your damage. So more stress on haste/crit.


P.S. People really need to reevaluate the "matching speed" weapons. At best it seems to produce 2-3% bigger flurry uptime due to flurry actually hastening partial swings (which means if you have 2.6x2 weapon then 3 flurry charges will haste 4 next swings. However with 2.7+2.6 weapon, 3 flurry charges will hasted all the OH swings and 5.2 sec of MH swings aka 5.2/5.4 = 96% of the MH swings.). If you look into that model further , you will see that flurry actually speeds up at LEAST 2 full swing of the faster weapon and 1.5 of the slower if the speeds arent too far apart. All in all AVERAGE haste is applied to approximately ~3.5-3.75 of the swings, instead of 4. And thats only if the flurry actually drops. With chain proccing there is obviously little difference. Add it up to the raid buffed crit of 45%+ with feral/ret etc (flurry uptime over 95%) and you will see that you are lucky if matching weapons gives you 10 dps.

 

Neldy

Thanks for the clarification, I guess the question I need to ask is: Is it worth saving extra arena points for an additional 5 exp.

 

Kaoz

DW SS is probably only interesting because of the ridiculous speeds of Warglaive MH vs OH. But with those weapons in mind, it's probably the best DPS you can get out of a fury warrior.

 

Lord Pendragon

While I understand the general priorities set in the opening post, I'm having a bit of trouble with the degree. For instance, while I know that expertise is generally more valuable than ap if your'e below 5.6% dodge reduction, how *much* more valuable is it?

More specifically, if you're below 5.6, does that make [Shapeshifter's Signet] more valuable than [Ancestral Ring of Conquest]?

 

Intorainbow

Fast/Slow OH

Hello guys, just want to tell my point of view on this problem.
Since BC released I ran with fast OH and have no problems with it. 2month ago I started reading elitist and found out a discussion that slow OH is better than fast due to increase in WW damage. At that time I was equipped with Talon of Azshara MH and Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH and was doing 1900 DPS on Teron. After reading that theme I took slow OH and tried it. So I run with Syphon of Nahrezim in MH and Talon in OH.
I was trying slow OH for 1.5 month trying to achieve as much as possible from it, but all I did was 1850 DPS on Teron (with some better gear). After that I switch to fast OH again and on the first Teron run I did 1940 DPS with Talon in MH and Boundless Agony dagger in OH.

Wow Web Stats

So what is about slow OH?
Reading through all the topics I noticed that practically the only reason for slow OH is that it does more WW damage. And how much % of your DPS goes from WW? As WWS shows for me it is about 7%. And does small increase in WW damage worse changing fast OH for slow one?

As I have read here slow OH weapon requires more skill, more rage control and if the skill is high than slow OH beats fast.
May be it is so, I tried for 1.5 month with slow OH to control rage generation but still could not achieve results that I achieved with fast OH.

As from my experience there are 2 problems with slow OH:

1) HS control.
When I am with fast OH I simply spam HS. And it does a lot of damage. As WWS shows 28% of my damage goes from HS. With fast OH you have a lot of rage and can afford to spam it practically non stop. With slow OH you cant do it. Firstly because of just poor rage generation and secondly because not to be in situation when BH is not on CD and you have no rage to use it. And that waiting time (when you are looking for situation to use HS) is rather much! Sometimes you just have rage only for BH and WW and you need to wait 10 or more seconds to use HS.
2) Rage pits.
I know that you can only use HS when you are about 50 or 60 rage (and that is because you can use HS rarely) but if you did bad with rage (sometimes it happens) sometimes there are situations when you have no rage. And here slow OH is rather bad because you can sit with <30 rage (to do BH) for 5 or more seconds! And than instantly receive 50 rage. Fast OH will give you rage much faster and much more faster!

So this 2 points (especially 1) for me are the points to choose fast OH.
May be I practiced too little? May be Syphon of Nahrezim in MH and Talon in OH is very poor combination of slow/slow weapons? Or may be I am wrong in something else?
As it is for me now best MH/OH combination from 4 weapons listed above is Talon in MH and Boundless Agony dagger in OH.

I wonder will new 2.4 badge fists will be the best weapon? (excluding arena 3 season weapon and warglaves off cause). And what fist to take in OH fast or slow? Perhaps with rather fast 2.5/2.5 speed and a lot of haste SW loot they will be grate weapons with nice rage generation…

 

Gruntle

That is exactly my experience with comparing slow and fast offhands, I'm perfectly willing to sacrifice a small part of my WW damage (remember most of the damage from WW comes from the normalized AP anyway) to get superior rage control. Come 2.4 I will very likely get the slow-fast setup with the badge fist weapons.