Gifpaste

Are these 9% hit numbers for both DW and 2H? I had always been under the impression DW required more hit.

 

Hoonboof

Yes. When you're over the special cap crit is better than hit point per point, it's just that a lot of top end gear has loads of hit on it, when you're at that stage you're probably better off with no points in precision and imp execute/PH instead.

:goon2:

 

Brissa

Ill try 26/35 with warglavies this comming week. The hard part is in actually measuring the difference from something as random as a wws log (I tend to bounce up and down several hundred dps depending on group composition and other sources).

 

Sydboz

Hello All, I've just joined the site and also am new to the DW Fury realm. I was Prot spec for the last year since TBC, but recently decided it was time for a change. Anyway, to get to the point.... I am 17/44 DW spec with 5/5 UW and 3/3 Precision. I do not have WM at the moment. I've entered all my dps gear into the spreadsheet for 2.4 from that thread. I must say that despite all the claims of crit and str being > hit, my experience has really shown me different so far. Even with precision and about 110 +hit I was experiencing HUGE strings of misses and being crushed on the dps meters. I use the BT/WW always on CD, and HS with > 50 rage attack rotation. Our guild does not use enhance shaman, so WF is not a possibility for me right now. With the above +hit, 3/3 Precision, 2.1k AP (raid buffed with no BS), and 30.7% crit, I was getting destroyed by the other dps in Karazhan. I do not have hard numbers, but I swapped out some of my items dropping me to around 1.9k AP (raid buffed with no BS) and 29.7% crit, but increased my +hit to 169 and noticed I began to keep up with the other dps from this point. I believe there is a happy medium somewhere that is not accounted for in the equations of the spreadsheet. Has anyone else experienced this? If so, can you give me any tips at what point +hit, you decided to begin re-stacking for crit/str?

I am the first to admit that I am a total NOOB dpser as I've basically always been prot spec. I come here because I believe you guys are mostly knowledgeable and can provide expert advice that I cannot get anywhere else. Thank you in advance for any advice you can provide.

Anyway, I cannot link my armory here as I'm at work. O.o But you can look me up and give me recommendations.

 

Gruntle

First, don't sign your posts (you might get reported and suspended for doing so, read the posting rules before posting).

Some advice
- If you run with sub-150 hit rating in kara/pre-kara gear, use a fast OH, miss streaks will really kill your dps otherwise. You'll see that if you use a fast OH you'll be able to manage your rage better. Or if you want to keep the slow OH, as you already did, get more hit.
- It's hard to keep up with other dps in Kara, we are quite dependent on getting good buffs. WF makes a huge difference, try to get it. You don't need an enhance shaman to get WF, totems from a resto shaman will work very good as well. The few times that I've topped the meters in Kara have been with a feral tank (+5 crit) and WF.
- Get Weapon mastery, it's way better than Imp. Execute.
- The differences you experienced might be due to the miss streaks, but it's quite hard to compare two different raids since a lot of other things can change (group composition, buffs and pure luck)

 

landsoul

Also keep in mind the 2.4 sheet is in development for 2.4 where supposedly your flurry will be more effective. Also from my current limitations of how to work it, the sheet does not take into account the chance of a miss streak -> rage starvation -> need to use rage but dont have, yet. I think I can get it to work eventually time permitting.

Might want to try instead of banking 50 rage, try 75. There may be a few chances where you will hit 100 before you can get a HS off, but it eliminates the chance ofnot having the rage for bt+ww+ramp in succession and also not landing all attacks within those 3 seconds.

 

Sydboz

I appreciate the replies. I am going to pick up Weapon Mastery since at the moment I sit at 0 Expertise. I'm sure that will help with consistent rage generation. I'm going to ask for a Resto Shammy for my group tonight in SSC as well.

 

SSLanfear

My question is has anyone just gone 21/40 without going for sword spec. Just getting Deathwish back for bursting, especially in alot of the fights where there is dps stoppage seems to work out alot better then having rampage. Plus deathwish stacked with haste pots and drums really packs a punch. Not to mention all the rage saved from not having to refresh rampage and the extra micro-managing of rampage.


In the end it really depends on raid setup as well as raid dps. I mean exampe for teron gorefiend if you can kill him at around 3mins 30secs thats having like 27.5% deathwish uptime, this would probably outdo what rampage would give.

I don't think sword spec is worth dropping imp zerker. I've been using this spec for about 2 resets and at least for Bt i enjoy it alot more and not noticing any major change dps wise.

 

Eledorian

I'd move that one point from precision into Imp WW. Your hitrating is high enough to ditch it.

 

frostea

Have there been any attempts to get some numbers together for Prot DPS? While I understand it's not very significant, I know at least some people are interested in keeping an effective DPS set for devastate for when they aren't main tanking.

 

Mackalicious

I have been trolling these forums for sometime now. I have seen many flip flop type answers on the utility of Blood frenzy in a raid. Initially my spec contained what I felt was the "ideal" raid buffer. I currently run an SSC/TK quality raid in which I am the sole dps warrior. My spec contained Blood frenzy, imp demo shout, and 5/5 commanding presence with a Solarion trinket. I felt I was doing my raid a great justice, even though I was falling short on the meters. I average about 8th to 11th on WWS.

After a short while I decided to respec fury and test my findings. Comparing a WWS of two-handed MS with blood frenzy vs. fury. I am curious on how my math can be applied. I added up the total dmg done of each physical damage source for that given night. Then I did the same for the fury WWS. I took the total amount of damage done on the MS WWS, and multiplied it by .04, assuming a flat 4% damage increase and 100% debuff uptime. End results showed that being specced fury I end up doing a total of 656 985 more damage then the MS spec. That would have included my total damage done as MS in addition to the total physical damage done multiplied by .04. So to clarify, fury's total out damaged MS’s damage even after adding the 4 % to MS’ total damage done.

I am unsure about my math. The more I look at encounters, the more I question blood frenzy. For example, my average crit. % is about 45% fully raid buffed. That would hurt my blood frenzy up time. Also, mobs who are immune to bleed affect.

Can anyone help me out deciding which spec would help my raid overall? .

I currently usually run with this given set up.

One enhancement shaman, three hunters, two prot warriors, one feral, one rogue, one dps warrior, one prot paladin, and finally one ret paladin. Any help would be great. At the moment I am leaning more toward fury. I am usually first or second DPS wise and overall raid damage seems to improve while specced fury. I just want to make sure I am on the right track and not talking out my ass.

 

landsoul

I can probably put that together in a few hours after I ring out some more kinks in the fury one im working on.

But it would be safe to say that ideal gear for fury is near equal to ideal gear for devastate/ww spam.

An OT in my guild did like 900 DPS in random season2/3/SSC/MH gear on archimonde and I thought it was leet. He actually beat out a whole lot of casters due to the warrior-friendly nature of the fight. It was pretty funny.

 

Brissa

At least one of the warrior spreadsheets already supports prot dps.
And while prot dps isnt quite close to fury dps it is not to shabby.
I did over 1100dps pre warglavies as prot on gorefiend (4.5min kill so the dps values arent horribly inflated) and I imagine that would be upped quite a bit now.

 

Touf

I am generally around 1300 on our 3-4 minute Terons, with a feral, resto, sometimes BM hunter, and only doing Demo. I have the spare dps plate (i.e. no tier gear), and T5 jewelry. If you have to do both debuffs I wouldn't expect much.

 

Lord Pendragon

To simplify it, is expertise rating so much more valuable than ap (when under 5.6% -dodge), that 20 expertise rating is worth more than 64 ap?

 

xellos

Blood Frenzy is generally better than Fury, but it depends on two things.

1. How well the warrior plays at each spec.
2. Quantity and quality of the physical dps you have in your raid.

Honestly, I'd do some more runs as fury and compare them to your Arms WWS. One WWS is really too little to make a decision.

 

Mackalicious

Thanks for the reply, to be honest I thought about this. So its been a few weeks now since I compared numbers between the 2. I think my problem might be more of your second reason. My physical dps in the raid is touch and go. We have 1-3 really good dpsers that are under geared. Then a few others that aren't up to par. Ill test some more.

 

Voxx

I hate to be rude, but can't the specific gear questions be taken to the spreadsheets? I mean, asking which is better between any two items comes down to your personal gear at some level, if you go click the link in the first post that takes you to the spreadsheet thread, you can use the spreadsheet to determine this sort of stuff for yourself and help make this thread a bit less cluttered.

As for the person that pointed out my mistake in the 2h Fury build, thanks I'll fix that. After a bit of napkin maths it seems 1 point Impale is roughly 1.5% dps increase vs a flat 1%. However, 2 points in Deflection vs Iron Will is really really coming down to personal preference. If you prefer the extra parry for tanking then fine. If you think that extra parry will save you countless number of times when you overaggro... that's pretty pathetic. 3% better chance to survive for a split second if you overaggro, keep in mind that overaggroing means you've raised the aggro switch-point by another 30% so the tank is likely not going to get the boss off you any time soon. Again though, this is really personal preference, take the parry if you want but I personally prefer resisting those chance stuns at say Morogrim, MH trash, Kaz'rogal, Anetheron Infernals etc etc. I find that resisting a stun saves my life more reliably (or increases my dps) than 3% chance to parry.

In regards to 26/35/0, the last I heard from people testing this build was that it seemed to work well in theory, and at some fights, however on most instances of stand and nuke, it doesn't hold it's own against 17/44/0. If someone could put up a couple of solid WWS where they outperform, or do roughly equal dps in comparison to 17/44/0 then I could add it here.

For the people constantly debating about the slow/fast offhands, it's a pretty similar subject to +hit past 9%. If you don't like your rage generation, try using a fast offhand instead. If you're perfectly happy with your rage generation with a slow offhand, keep using it. If you think you have more rage than you need with a fast offhand, try using a slow one and see what it does for you.

Lastly for the disparities between the stuff I've posted here and between people in Karazhan gear, your problem in Karazhan gear is that you're not quite at the point where you generate enough rage with only the 9% bare minimum hit to keep Bloodthirst and Whirlwind on cooldown every cooldown with some rage left over for Rampage etc. The point I was trying to get across is that 9% is the bare minimum. That's the point where hit starts to become sup-par. If you're unhappy with your rage generation at any level of gear then boost it a bit. The entire purpose of +hit is to provide you with steady rage, if it isn't doing that at 9% hit, raise it to 10/11/12% and see if you like it more.

Please remember that 90% of how well you dps is going to be based on your own experience and play-style. Cater to yourself and do what you find to work best.

Edit: added that last bit as a disclaimer.

 

landsoul

Most I ever seen 1 expertise be worth is 1.445 strength at max known sunwell gear and max raid setup. 20exp * 1.445str/exp = 28.9 strength. Ancestral ring is always better.

 

LittleHamster

I've done the same maths for myself on one evening of MS blood frenzy build in MH. (I know, one night is not authoritative). Gear was the same, except for weapons. My dw set up was wicked edge of the planes and fury, MS is bloodmoon. On trash, I do significantly better as fury, I think about 400 dps more because I have infinite rage to WW and SS all the time. On bosses, where it matters, I'm about 200-300dps behind my own fury performance.

We run a very small melee/hunter group. Iirc, that night we have 3 melee dps (excluding myself), 2 prot warriors, 1 feral druid tank and one hunter. Assuming 100% blood frenzy uptime, and everyone only dps on the boss, I'm buffing only 290 dps. (The truth is more like 2 of the tanks are mostly on the adds).

With my napkin maths, this means the number comes out about equal on dps whether I spec fury or MS blood frenzy. With only the result of me "suffering" on the damage meters if I'm MS.

 

Sydboz

Well, I dropped 2/2 Imp Execute for 2/2 Weapon Mastery. I also swapped out my +crit Hydross shoulders for the badge +hit shoulders while leaving my weapons the same. (MH - Decapitator, OH - Spiteblade) We ran Gruul and SSC last night. I ended up #4 for Gruul and #3 for most of SSC (Until early death on Leo). It should be noted that I had a Resto Shammy in my group by request. She dropped WF for me on Gruul, but kept dropping Agility totems in SSC for the #1 Rogue in our guild who was also in my group. Anyway, just wanted to report back that your tips helped my dps tremendously.

 

Gruntle

Great that the advice helped! Not that I'm an expert on rogues, but I thought WF was the best totem also for them (better than having poison on the MH). Maybe someone else at EJ forums know for sure.

 

Domdidom

I tried out 26/35 with both glaives in SSC yesterday and with WF it's pretty awesome! I actually put all three points in precision and two of the additonal arms points in imp. overpower. This in combination with 228 hit rating made my rage flow good enough to be able to effectively weave in overpowers while BT/WW were on CD. Granted you miss some heroic strikes from the stance switch but an extra instant almost guaranteed to crit should outweigh this. Dunno really if the dps is better than 17/44 but the fun factor easily beats babysitting rampage!

 

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