New to posting on the forums so not sure if i should post this here or not. Just trying to get some tips for where my guild is at and if i am doing anything wrong dps or even gear build wise.
To break it down:
My group is usually two rogues, one warrior either MS or Fury, Retribution paladin (or feral druid), and me. We have no core raider moonkin, we do use curse of recklessness, and i use as many Cool downs as i can on boss fights (drums/trinkets/etc. you know the basics) depending if i need a potion or not for health. I linked a WWS for an Anetheron fight since it is a fight where i do not have to hold back and do not have to move in and out.
Also, a link to a current goal list of Gear if there is anything that i might need replace with something instead of what i have listed that would be also helpful.
New to posting on the forums so not sure if i should post this here or not. Just trying to get some tips for where my guild is at and if i am doing anything wrong dps or even gear build wise.
To break it down:
My group is usually two rogues, one warrior either MS or Fury, Retribution paladin (or feral druid), and me. We have no core raider moonkin, we do use curse of recklessness, and i use as many Cool downs as i can on boss fights (drums/trinkets/etc. you know the basics) depending if i need a potion or not for health. I linked a WWS for an Anetheron fight since it is a fight where i do not have to hold back and do not have to move in and out.
Also, a link to a current goal list of Gear if there is anything that i might need replace with something instead of what i have listed that would be also helpful.
Thanks,
Cy
Off the top of my head, the t6 gloves are beaten by both the mail and leather badge gloves, and the mail najentus gloves, and probably the alar gloves as well. T5 legs are pretty underwhelming as well, I think even [Skulker's Greaves] from kara are better, as well as badge gear.
I always find it easier to do these estimations graphically.
Assumptions:
1)SwingSpeed is your average swing speed over time, i.e. if you do 10 hits in 15 seconds (Autoattacks, SS's, WF extra hits etc), your average swing speed is 1.5
2)From the combat log I looked at, there seems to be a single swing between the proc and the first stack of the buff which is what gives the 1/2 swing delay on the graph before the buff starts stacking.
3)proc rate is 10%, at 1.5 swing speed that gives average 6.6 secs to proc.
Area under graph = total attack power bonus = (((20-0.5SwingSpeed)+(20-5.5SwingSpeed))/2)*440
AP = 170.54-25.58SwingSpeed
which gives
144.9 for a 1s swing speed
132.2 for a 1.5s swing speed
113.4 for a 2.0s swing speed
Added to this we then have the haste bonus multiplied by whatever haste AEP value you use.
Note: I did post this in the Theorycrafting enhance shammy post as well, but I have just spotted an error in the math I posted there, I missed a factor of 10 somewhere (stupidly multiplied out by 44 instead of 440) which reduced the effect of weapon speed massively. I will correct it. I also was unaware of the 10% proc rate, but i had assumed it based on an observed 51 secs between procs from the combat log.
Well, raiding with a 32% melee crit rate, this would mean a 37% crit chance for shocks,
From my understanding of the leaked info its only Crit and hit Rating that provides joint spell/melee crit/hit. Agility and Intellect and talents will still only affect melee or spell crit/hit individually. So Elemental Devastation won't feed back into the equation because the talent only provides melee crit.
That still gives something like 15% or so crit to shocks which is pretty decent, and it raises the viability of Flametongue Weapon again I think. Elemental Devastation though... not so much I think. We're going to get 10 more talent points and you can bet that whatever they're adding to our last 2 tiers of talents that its going to be more stuff we want/need for raiding, and we have no idea if they're going to revamp any of our early tiers to make them more beneficial.
What I'd love to see at this point is whether this new unified stat system will change the type of gear we want. Unfortunately Yo's sim isn't set up for this right now and he'd need to add some options to consider crit rating as spell crit rating and figure out an EP value based on both.
With hit and crit change I would sit at 20% spell crit and 13% spell hit unbuffed. With IFF that is spell hit cap and with imp jotc and raid buffs elem devastion uptime would be 1-(1-(0.24*.99))^2 = 0.42
0.42*0.09 = 0.038 crit
So elem devastion would be around = 1% crit per point. So not enourmous but better than resto subspec. I can't wait to see new talents I hope that blizzard has learn how to shaman and don't ruin our perfect pve flexibility.
Curse of Recklessness
Expose Weakness
Faerie Fire
Imp Hunter's Mark
Imp Judgement of Crusader
etc.
I used to do 2k on Brutallus, but now that we've lost our ret pally, druid tank, survival hunter, I'm doing about 1.8k with better gear
I will check into our debuffs, I'm pretty sure that all 3 of our hunters are BM, which means a pretty significant drop from not having Expose Weakness. I guess I'm not very well versed in hunter talents, I had no idea that even existed! We don't have a Ret Pally atm, either. I'll pester my GM about having people speccing for better physical damage, while our mages and locks do good DPS, our best DPS is a rogue, no glaives, who's putting up 2k dps right now on melee friendly fights. Our 3rd best is one of our hunters (#2 is a lock). CoE is always up, but I don't know how often our second lock is using CoR. It's rare for us to have 3 locks in a raid.
As far as my gear goes, I'm trying guys, I've only been doing this for about 2 months, so I've grabbed what I could when I could. I took the mail badge chest over the leather just because at the time I was running a little under 5k mana, and I was looking at ~9AP in hit over the haste vs. 26 Int. Now, with 2 pieces of T6, I've got more mana than I know what to do with, but that's another story. I'm also working on getting the guild to pony up for new gems now that our JC has the str/sta shadowsong instead of just the ap/sta shadowsong recipe. I figure I spend enough on scrolls/pots/flasks/food in any given night that they can shell out 2 night's worth of consumables to regem a couple pieces of gear.
Going back to SSC isn't really an option, unless I can find a PuG running it, so I think the best thing I can get to replace those shoulders are the Hidden Predator shoulders off Shade of Akama. It's not really that much of an upgrade, I think it worked out to like 7 EP. When the Bow-Stitched Leggings drop, believe me, I'm going to have them.
Anyone have any ideas as to what I can do to reduce my lag? Obviously, cutting unecessary addons is the first step, I run with Big Wigs, Enhancer, Postmaster and one other mod, the name of which escapes me at the moment, but it's just a timer for WF/shock/SS CD's. I also close out my virus checker and every other unecessary program I can find before opening WoW, so all I'm running is WoW/Vent. I was thinking maybe there was something I could do to cut unecessary system processes, like a not so gimped form of safe mode or something, but I'm not the best computer geek in the world.
Things I'd like to see tested for the new mechanic, assuming it doesnt change -
Changes to 'best gear' if we were to value crit/hit as providing spell crit/hit (devaluing agility)
Potential Flametongue dps on OH assuming a maxed out spell hit and some moderate level of spell crit
To figure out an EP value of "crit" in a general sense though we'll need Yo to modify the sim to accommodate it, unless someone (Rob? Disquette?) remembers how to do it by hand.
First quick simulation give 1.7ep for spell hit component and 0.48ep for spell crit when usin 18/43/0 spec with flametongue in offhand. If these numbers is not up to my ass then we want lot of hit gear and hit gems. Loot Rank for WoW
Edit: With best gear and hit gems you end up with 26.82% spell hit and 27.4% melee hit. So you there is another soft cap for hit rating becouse spell hit cap so early. Best solution fix this is give hit rating only same value as crit and gem for spell hit cap and after that gem crit. So Loot Rank for WoW is best for dps.
Ok so if resto spec'd with Natures Guidance then a 3.0 shaman would need 13% hit from gear at lvl 80 to hit cap spells. Doesn't seem too far fetched to be able to get pretty close to that with a minimal number of hit gems.
I had the following strange idea:
Since an enhancement shaman has some global cooldowns to spare, i thought it would be possible to sqeeze out a tiny fraction of personal dps by switching enchants on your mainhand while WF is on CD.
Since my shaman is resto specced at the moment, i can't try it out, has anyone tried the following:
1) start with WF enchant
2) when WF proccs immediatly switch to flametounge
3) wait for next swing
4) reapply WF
Maybe it makes sense only in specific sitiations, like when step 3 occours at the same time as a shock.
Maybe it would make sense to re-apply WF the instant before stormstrike gets ready, so there is a better chance for SS to proc WF
That's an interesting idea. In theory, if you aren't twisting totems, you might be able to twist your weapon enchant. Can you specify with a macro which hand to cast a weapon imbue on? I know it does MH first by default if you have no imbues active, but if you have two different weapon imbues on, you have to select the weapon after selecting the spell, like you do for applying mana oil.
I had the following strange idea:
Since an enhancement shaman has some global cooldowns to spare, i thought it would be possible to sqeeze out a tiny fraction of personal dps by switching enchants on your mainhand while WF is on CD. ?
Weapon Imbues incur a global cooldown when you use them. The GCD is 1.5 seconds. The WF CD is 3 seconds. That means you would get 1.5 seconds of Flametongue time before having to change it again. Add any amount of latency and human error, and you're going to screw it up and miss out on potential WF procs. Not going to work.
Weapon Imbues incur a global cooldown when you use them. The GCD is 1.5 seconds. The WF CD is 3 seconds. That means you would get 1.5 seconds of Flametongue time before having to change it again. Add any amount of latency and human error, and you're going to screw it up and miss out on potential WF procs. Not going to work.
That's not entirely true. They do incur a global cooldown, but they're active immediately upon casting. You'd get less than 3 seconds of Flametongue due to human error/latency, of course, but as long as you switch back to Windfury just before the CD is up, you can get close to 3 seconds.
I still don't think it will be any significant difference, though. You won't be able to do it on WFs from Stormstrike (in this case, the problem is the GCD as Malan described), which cuts out a very significant percentage of the WF CDs in which you would switch to FT. Only WFs between Stormstrikes, and that don't occur during a GCD from a shock would really be applicable, and assuming you're not totem twisting. Honestly, if you have the mana and GCDs to spare, you're going to see a significantly greater DPS improvement by totem twisting than imbue twisting. Even if personal DPS has a remote chance of being comparable by imbue twisting, when you factor in the rest of the group, totem twisting will absolutely be superior for raid DPS.
[e] Actually there's only one time that this would be possible. You basically need 4.5 seconds completely free of the need to do anything, because you can't fit a GCD in between switching to and from FT. This would only be true for an Enh/resto shaman, and only on points in the SS/Shock cycle where you can shock immediately after Stormstrike. Windfury would have to proc near the end of the GCD for the first shock between the two SSs. Ex:
SS (1.5s) -- FS (1.5s), WF proc -- FT (1.5s) -- pause (~1.0-1.4s) -- WF (1.5s) -- ES (1.5s) -- pause (~1.0s) -- SS (1.5s)
Even that is cutting it a little close with latency. You really risk pushing back the whole cycle and losing DPS by not shocking and SSing as soon as the CDs are up.
Unless I missed something obvious while playing my shaman, there's no way to cast an imbue on the same weapon twice in a row short of deequipping the other one. If you cast FT+WF, you'd end up with FT on your MH and a refreshed WF on your OH. As a result, a single twist would take FT+WF+WF -- 3 GCDs and a nontrivial amount of mana for 1-2 FT procs (and a small chance of losing a WF proc).
I just tested it earlier to make sure it worked how I thought it did. If you have WF on one weapon and FT on the other, and you select either imbue to cast, it doesn't automatically decide which one to cast it on. It gives you the little hand cursor to select it manually. I happens similarly if you have the same imbue on both weapons and select a different one. It only automatically picks a weapon if both weapons have the same one, and you're just refreshing that imbue, or if one weapon doesn't have one on it at all. In the case of imbue twisting like this, you'd have to manually click on the appropriate weapon, or come up with a macro/mod to do the selecting instantaneously. I'm pretty sure this is possible, as AutoBar has functionality for rogues where one button is for MH and one is for OH, and you just choose which poison to apply with that weapon. I would assume that the same sort of thing could be done with a /cast line in the code instead of a /use, though I can't confirm.
I leveled a shaman and was lucky enough to be able to spec enhancement, i am in a guild that has just begun to do MH and soon BT. So I have been reading the forums here to learn to play this shaman, i have only be 70 for about 2 weeks now and have made a pretty good start to gear selection. My problem i run into now is what to pick next and was wondering/hoping for some constructive suggestions.
Currently as you can see i dual wield Dragonstrike and my biggest question is, does the refreshing haste of the dual wielding of Dragonstrike make it worth it over Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality? Also would i be better off completely losing Dragonstrike and going for both badge weapons or perhaps the fist off of Al'ar, Talon of the Phoenix? My only problem with doing the badge weapon/weapons is that i need the badges for other upgrades as well, which ties into my second question.
Now i ran the EP values but talking with different friends and looking it over i just can't believe it, but the Tunic of the Dark Hour is really better than Bloodsea Brigand's Vest? I guess the numbers don't lie but my friends keep telling me that i should just get the drop from Fathom Lord and don't waste the badges, but i want to make sure i have the best gear not just gear that will suffice.
Now i know my gems and gear now is kinda out of sorts but it is to get the meta socket bonus on the helm, and also i have only been 70 two weeks so keep in mind i haven't had the chance for alot of drops or all the badge gear yet. Any suggestions on the gear and weapons would be a huge help, thank you in advance.
First of all, the simulator doesn't lie. While it can't model dualwielding Dragonstrikes currently, try doing a search on the forums, because it's been discussed a lot how much weight can be attributed to the refreshing proc.
Use the simulator to find out which weapon combination is the best for you. You can use Warcrafter to build profiles of different gear sets to see how they match up if you like to plan ahead. You can be almost certain that Talon of the Phoenix isn't the right answer though, as it has too low dps.
As far as chests go, Tunic of the Dark Hour and Bloodsea Brigand's Vest are very close, and which is better depends entirely on your other stats. Since you're fairly low on crit and AP, Bloodsea Brigand's Vest is likely to be a bigger upgrade for some time to come, but keep in mind it has a lot less stamina, which, while not being an issue right now, can actually be one of those factors you can't determine the value of, but kind of need anyway.
Just remember, as your gear changes, so does your EP values. What might be best today might not be tomorrow. If you've got a lot of spare time, build some different profiles with warcrafter.net and run some 1000 hour simulations with those data. That should give you a picture of the various upgrade paths.
Dual wielding DS is on par with or better than the fist weapons -- do not waste your badges! With my gear, the haste proc of the MH DS is worth about 3.2% passive haste, and the haste proc of the OH DS is worth about 2.8% passive haste. At my stat weights, this makes the proc worth about 80 EP MH and 71 OH.
But the real benefit of the DS is its speed. 2.7 is very nice, every .1 slower is like a .5-.7% upgrade to TOTAL DPS. The Talon is a very good MH, too, its stats will probably weight it higher than the DS at your gear level. Otherwise, DS outperforms everything up to the BT/MH gear, and of course s3.
Nyn-jah's Tabi Boots, Master Assassin Wristguards and Angelista's Revenge are three great, cheap badge upgrades with better bang for the buck than the badge chest (the boots are the best of the bunch for you I think). I'd grind honor for the s3 ring (which due to armor penetration is pretty awesome). And do Nalorakk every reset...his shoulders AND belt are both great upgrades.
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 06/12/08 at 11:55 AM.
Your gems look fine. Ideally you'd want Str/Stam gems in blue sockets instead of AP/Stam, but since you got the heroic AP/Stam ones, you're better off with what you have until you can put epic gems in them. It looks like you already know that, though, since everything else is Str instead of AP, etc.
I've heard good things about dual Dragonstrike, on this forum and elsewhere. You'll probably get the best bang for your badge out of getting other badge upgrades first, seeing as some are so good (particularly the ones Verimon linked). If your guild does ZA, consider getting your hands on a [Shadowtooth Trollskin Cuirass]. The lack of sockets is a little annoying, but it's a superb chest, and will only get better as you get more ArP. When I was looking at the badge upgrades and figuring out EP-per-badge, [Tunic of the Dark Hour] was strictly worse EP/badge than upgrading my gems. Something to consider, as you're prioritizing your badge investments. Similarly from ZA is the [Cloak of Fiends] from the first chest, which is a pretty solid upgrade for you.
If you do decide to eventually pick up the badge fists, make sure you completely recalculate your personal EP values. Dropping from 2.7 (or even 2.6) speed to 2.5 speed weapons has been demonstrated by quite a few people to inflate the value of crit and agility significantly. This happened to me, too. That said, it would probably be a complete waste of badges to do so, given how good the DS proc is.
06/06/08, 2:26 AM
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