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Malan · 06/17/08, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Stopokingme

Wasn't it tested using NS that any non instant spell made instant resets the swing timer? I know for a fact that the 2 piece t5 reset your swing timer, even though the LHW cast was intant.

When used in a macro, Nature's Swiftness does not reset the swing timer. However if you keybind NS, hit it, and then hit the keybind for another spell (or click, whatever), you can observe that your swing timer is reset. Its a strange effect of NS. And yah the 2pc T5 definitely reset the swing timer.

Toots - not sure exactly how it works, but I imagine that is happening is that the client/server gets a message of "Stop attacking I'm casting" immediately followed by "Ok casting done, auto attack again."

• Shalas · 06/17/08, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

I'm not 100% sure of the mechanic -- does resetting of the swing timer occur after the spell goes off? In that case, you'd have a 2s channel, followed by a wait of at least 1 swing speed before your melee attacks did any damage.

Your swingtimers are set to zero the instant you start casting, and don't progress while a cast is in progress. If you managed to cast LvB immediatly after a swing you'd only lose 2 seconds of white dps, but in practice Slam rotations have shown that you're looking at closer to .5 seconds, and if your hands are out of sync perfect timing isn't even possible.

Toots Hepcat · 06/17/08, 12:33 PM

So...in conclusion...if your weapons are in sync, and FS is up, and WF is on cooldown, and you can hit the LvB button immediately after a swing connects, and your autoattack does less than 1000 dps, and assuming they don't nerf it, because an automatic crit without a cooldown seems a little overpowered for PvP...

LvB looks pretty sweet!

gunsmithx · 06/17/08, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

So...in conclusion...if your weapons are in sync, and FS is up, and WF is on cooldown, and you can hit the LvB button immediately after a swing connects, and your autoattack does less than 1000 dps, and assuming they don't nerf it, because an automatic crit without a cooldown seems a little overpowered for PvP...

LvB looks pretty sweet!

LvB has an 8 second cooldown or so I understood. Plus you can only flameshock every 5 seconds(talented) and you'd have to not be earthshocking so it shouldn't be overpowered for PvP, unless you ment something else.

Pitbuller · 06/17/08, 1:40 PM

YO! Can you please add elemental fury talent to Sim. I made some test and it's should be least 100dps with 70lvl gear but 80lvl talents. It's will be worse than DW spec 1point to weapon spec and feral spirit but how much is the question. Also can you check what is wrong whit spell stats ep values. With quick test and gimmick 2*fast weapon with ft in melee group but caster gear(crit/hit/spell power) sim hitted 2400dps if I account elem fury by hands. Also spell damage ep value was high as 1.65(sim showed 0.62 but it was 0.62dps per spell damage.). Odd results from very odd test. But it look that enhance will scale pretty well even with caster gear.

Ruga · 06/17/08, 2:16 PM

Heya Yo!,
hope this is the right thread, but I *think* there's a bug with the export function of your calc

AP:100;CR:2;STR:200;AGI:462;HR:176;HsR:183;IA:0711;ExP:0;

Agi and Ignore Armor seem to be wrongly exported into this string for Equivalence Points (might also edit the link to the new addon: Index of /EquivalencePoints/ ) .

Agi is 1.87 and Ignore Armor is 0.34 according to your Tracking HQ.

Cheers and thanks for your hard work!

Rhaegal · 06/17/08, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

YO! Can you please add elemental fury talent to Sim. I made some test and it's should be least 100dps with 70lvl gear but 80lvl talents. It's will be worse than DW spec 1point to weapon spec and feral spirit but how much is the question. Also can you check what is wrong whit spell stats ep values. With quick test and gimmick 2*fast weapon with ft in melee group but caster gear(crit/hit/spell power) sim hitted 2400dps if I account elem fury by hands. Also spell damage ep value was high as 1.65(sim showed 0.62 but it was 0.62dps per spell damage.). Odd results from very odd test. But it look that enhance will scale pretty well even with caster gear.

Could you explain how you ended up with 100 DPS from elemental fury, please? My back-of-the-napkin calculations are giving me significantly less (50-60 DPS, assuming a shaman with T6+ equiv gear, obviously less as gear decreases), accounting for increased shock damage, static shock damage, and searing totem damage.

Here's what I'm doing:
Assume a standard enhance/resto build, and gear to support 1500 DPS. 15% of a typical enh/resto shaman's damage is from shocks, so 225 DPS. Take out crit damage now, assuming a fairly high 5% base spell crit, at +50% crit damage: 225/1.025 = 219.5 DPS without any crits.

Add in 5/5 Concussion: 219.5 * 1.05 = 230.5 DPS
Add in 5/5 Reverberation: 230.5 * 1.1667 = 268.9 DPS
Account for another ~10% spell hit on gear (83% hit to 93% hit): 268.9 * 93/83 = 301.3 DPS without any crits.

Consider 15% spell crit (reasonable):
Without Elemental Fury: 301.3 * 1.075 = 323.9 shock DPS
With Elemental Fury: 301.3 * 1.15 = 346.5 shock DPS. 22.6 DPS higher than without Elemental Fury

Consider 25% spell crit (probably too high, but maybe possible if we get lots of unexpected crit rating on gear (unlikely if we're sharing gear with hunters), and we gem for pure crit):
Without Elemental Fury: 301.3 * 1.15 = 346.5 shock DPS
With Elemental Fury: 301.3 * 1.30 = 391.7 shock DPS. 45.2 DPS higher than without Elemental Fury

Perhaps I've made some very wrong assumptions, but that seems to be the situation with shock DPS. Static Shock and Searing Totem won't combine to be as much total damage as shocks, based on math earlier in the thread. With 15% spell crit, I think we'd be looking at < 50 DPS from this talent, in level 70 gear with level 80 talents. What am I missing?

Buanna · 06/17/08, 4:50 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

So...in conclusion...if your weapons are in sync, and FS is up, and WF is on cooldown, and you can hit the LvB button immediately after a swing connects, and your autoattack does less than 1000 dps, and assuming they don't nerf it, because an automatic crit without a cooldown seems a little overpowered for PvP...

LvB looks pretty sweet!

Now we'd just need to figure out if it was still worth doing in the worst case scenario. Well, not really worst case; there's no compelling reason to use LV without Flame Shock up.

Pitbuller · 06/18/08, 12:13 PM

I used fast off-hand(1.3s) with flame tongue. I assume that with wotlk talents known and sunwell gear farmed you get spell hit cap and about 5% base crit + 3% from ret paladin and about 17% from gear(I got now about 14.2% still gearing up) so 25%crit. And assuming static charge can crit.
With 0% crit and sunwell gear + raid buffs.
Shocks 310dps
+Searing 114dps
+Flametongue 236dps
+Static charge ~100dps

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95dps

This is closer to 100dps but still under.
And forget about flame shock dot.
I wanted it to sim becouse napkin math is so slow.

Toots Hepcat · 06/18/08, 2:44 PM

Yo, thanks for adding the offhand DS. Simulations look close to my calculations.

Assuming the new stat weight calculations are correct, I've entered a period of stat balance. With my raid gear, feral/warrior group, I have:
CritR: 1.67
HitR: 1.69
Haste: 1.68
Agi: 1.64

This should make upgrade calculations pretty easy for a while.

Hodus · 06/20/08, 9:42 AM

This was discussed somewhere but this forum has huge threads and couldnt find my question replied so here it is:

I have an enhancement shammie with both badge fists and also [Syphon of the Nathrezim] so my question is:

Besides SWP weapons which do you think are the best combo MH/OH due dps? Till yesterday i thought both vanir fists where just after SWP weapons but after some goggling i've noticed some people think different so im confused now.
Again if this stuff was discussed before, sorry for it, just point me to the correct thread and i'll read it

Nefiir · 06/20/08, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Hodus

this was discussed somewhere but this forum has huge threads and couldnt find my question replied so here it is:

I have an enhancement shammie with both badge fists and also [Syphon of the Nathrezim] so my question is:

Besides SWP weapons which do u think are the best combo MH/OH due dps? Till yesterday i thought both vanir fists where just after SWP weapons but after some goggling ive noticed some ppl think different so im confused now.
Again if this stuff was discussed before, soz for it, point me to the correct thread and ill read it

Read the Weapons section of Shaman: Enhancement in the Theorycraft Think Tank, especially the part about using Yo's simulator.

Toots Hepcat · 06/20/08, 3:20 PM

The badge weapons kind of suck.

They're great at lower gear levels -- Kara and sub -- but their slightly faster speed means that as your other stats increase, you won't get as much out of those stats as you would if your weapons were slower.

Given simulations I've done I'd say the badge weapons, WDPS and speed wise, are roughly comparable to 100 dps 2.6s weapons or 96 dps 2.7s weapons with T5/ZA/badge gear. This means they're worse than slow T5 weapons, and only better than s2 because of the stats.

Skiace · 06/23/08, 4:15 AM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

The badge weapons kind of suck.

They're great at lower gear levels -- Kara and sub -- but their slightly faster speed means that as your other stats increase, you won't get as much out of those stats as you would if your weapons were slower.

Given simulations I've done I'd say the badge weapons, WDPS and speed wise, are roughly comparable to 100 dps 2.6s weapons or 96 dps 2.7s weapons with T5/ZA/badge gear. This means they're worse than slow T5 weapons, and only better than s2 because of the stats.

Just to throw some more anecdotal fuel on the fire, I ran the sim today to test some weapon combos since I picked up a Rising Tide that would have been sharded. Here's the 4 combinations I checked today:

Vanir-Vanir -1542
Vanir-DS -1537
Vanir-RT -1532
RT-DS -1521

As always, the answer is just "try the sim" because this particular problem really does seem to have some different answers for different people.

Piestein · 06/23/08, 7:32 PM

That depends on current gear I would guess. When they came out I tested them(Yo's) and it proved Vanir's to be better. Now , however , I tested it again and it proved RT to be a great upgrade. I am an orc, however, so 5 Expertise is taken into account as well.

That might be me being just silly of course and messing up the testings.

However, my original post in here was to request some discussion about Deathfrost: will it be added to the simulator and how does it exactly work for shamans? Because I've seen some ideas about it being nice for shamans(because of capability of procs both from spells and hits), but I personally somehow doubt it.

Skiace · 06/23/08, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by Piestein

That depends on current gear I would guess. When they came out I tested them(Yo's) and it proved Vanir's to be better. Now , however , I tested it again and it proved RT to be a great upgrade. I am an orc, however, so 5 Expertise is taken into account as well.

That might be me being just silly of course and messing up the testings.

However, my original post in here was to request some discussion about Deathfrost: will it be added to the simulator and how does it exactly work for shamans? Because I've seen some ideas about it being nice for shamans(because of capability of procs both from spells and hits), but I personally somehow doubt it.

My guess from what I've seen so far is that it will be a good pvp enchant for enhance, but I doubt it will overtake mongoose in a raid setting.

Piestein · 06/24/08, 9:00 AM

Indeed my thought. And if it can't overtake mongoose, it will be impossible to overtake executioner with proper ArP. But in the end, has anybody actually TESTED it ?

Andoras · 06/24/08, 2:37 PM

I've been using Yo's sim for awhile now and never had any issues. However, I hadn't run it in about a month or so cause I hadn't received many upgrades. I finally got the RoS boots(upgrade from Anetheron boots) and then the Sunwell leather LW chest(upgrade from Midnight Chestguard) a few days later, so I decided to run it again. I got VASTLY different results. For example:

Old Crit EP: 1.97
New Crit EP: 2.12

Old Hit EP: 1.64
New Hit EP: 1.97

Old Haste EP: 1.88
New Haste EP: 1.74

This has obviously changed things quite a bit(I use the loot rank link from the export section). My main question, I guess, would be: Has something changed with the way the sim calculates EP in the last month or so? Or are my changes in gear the only explanation? At first I thought it was an anomaly, but I've run about 5 sims(one of them around 100,000 hours) and got essentially the same results each time.

My DPS is still fine(over 2k on Gorefiend, doing close to the best that's possible on other fights) and my ultimate best in slot gear hasn't changed really, so I guess it doesn't matter too much, but now that I'm seeing some pieces from BT that I've passed on(namely, Insidious Bands) are significantly higher rated now.

And one last thing, for people that use lootrank, do you get weird values for trinkets? With the new EP weights, I'm showing DST as significantly worse than every other raiding trinket I can get, which doesn't vibe with, well, any other Enh Shaman info I've ever heard. I assume it's just the site, but I'm next in line for a DST in my guild and don't want to make a mistake if it's actually accurate.

Xieon · 06/24/08, 3:48 PM

I wouldn't go by the values posted for trinkets or weapons on Lootrank. For the current EJ accepted information check out: Shaman: Enhancement

Smithist · 06/24/08, 5:27 PM

Originally Posted by Andoras

And one last thing, for people that use lootrank, do you get weird values for trinkets?

I believe it simply applies your stat weights to any passive bonuses a trinket has and ignores proc effects. So DST is slotted based on nothing but the 40ap.

In any case, the list Xieon linked does the job just fine as there aren't more than a few trinkets to seriously consider anyway.

[e]That's my mistake then, I recalled reading this was the case. I don't really use the site and hadn't seen DST's weighting.

Toots Hepcat · 06/24/08, 5:48 PM

Lootrank now adds an estimate of a proc's effect based off estimate uptime.

DST, for example, is being estimated at exactly 1 PPM. EX: if you set your melee haste to 1, the estimated value of the trinket's proc is 54, or 325 * 10 / 60.

Andoras · 06/24/08, 6:28 PM

I believe it simply applies your stat weights to any passive bonuses a trinket has and ignores proc effects. So DST is slotted based on nothing but the 40ap.

In any case, the list Xieon linked does the job just fine as there aren't more than a few trinkets to seriously consider anyway.

It most certainly does not just use the 40 AP. It lists it at 133 EP(while listed at 188 on the link provided). However, the EP value for haste rating being used there is 1.98, while the sim puts mine at 1.74. That's my main question, my EP #s vary rather greatly from the norm. I'm trying to figure out if I'm fine and should listen to it, or if there's something wrong with the process.

Toots Hepcat · 06/24/08, 6:36 PM

Okay, what I gleamed from various sources:

Melee proc rate is 2.16 PPM, no cooldown. Cast proc rate is 50% with a 25s cooldown. Deathfrost on one weapon can proc from either (so put it on you offhand).

Assuming an average weapon speed of 2s, you'll have a proc chance of 7.16%.

Let's say you get 12 WF procs per minute. That's 24 chances to proc, plus 60 from autoattack, plus 12 from SS for a total of 96 swings per minute. Let's assume half of those apply to your deathfrosty hand -- that works out to 3.44 PPM.

As for shocks, I believe they combine to an additional ~2 PPM.

Total, 5.44 PPM. Should be worth 13.94 dps. Benefit from mongoose is around 20-40 dps depending on your gear level, so a slight nerf.

You get another 3.44 PPM out of a second enchant, for an additional 8.89 dps.

In either case, uptime should be very high. I'll bet 100% uptime is possible with a dual enchant. If your raid decides one player needs to keep DF up, we sadly might be the class to do it...

EDIT: Procs from spell damage seem to add a cooldown to ALL procs. 10 minutes testing in BL with a single weapon, briefest period between procs when the debuff was launched by a melee weapon was 11s. However, the briefest period between procs when the debuff was launched by a shock was 25.2s. Total Uptime was 44%. Uptime for just melee attacks 56%.

Toots Hepcat · 06/24/08, 6:44 PM

Originally Posted by Andoras

It most certainly does not just use the 40 AP. It lists it at 133 EP(while listed at 188 on the link provided). However, the EP value for haste rating being used there is 1.98, while the sim puts mine at 1.74. That's my main question, my EP #s vary rather greatly from the norm. I'm trying to figure out if I'm fine and should listen to it, or if there's something wrong with the process.

PPM values are not absolute. You'd need to check with somebody who has a DST, but I believe that proc rate is slightly higher than 1 PPM. The simulator shows an uptime of 25%, which is 1.5 PPM...if that's accurate, you'll want to subtract 40 from your Lootrank estimate for DST, multiply the rest by 1.5, and add the 40 back in.

Crackalack · 06/25/08, 2:27 AM

So quick question for some of the current enhance heavyweights. I raided up to Illidan before quitting the game as enhancment and know the ins and outs for the most part. I've also seen all fights up two twins in SP. But the one thing I cant figure out after checking so many shaman's armorys is why high end shaman that are upto or working on Muru are wearing Dory's embrace. Based on my calculations SMD is much much better than that, and still slightly better than the ZA haste cloak. What makes this so desireable when clearly the stats, when put into pawn using YO's sim put the SMD on top.

The same goes for the Clutch of demise off brut vs. the supremus neck.

I quit about 6 months back and am considering about reactivating my account to continue raiding and figured I needed to get caught back up, but some of these gear choices I just cant understand. Based on the information on wwsscoreboard.com there are many top 10 shaman using Dorys over what appears to be a better choice. Am I missing something here or do these shaman just value armor pen much more than YO's leads on.

my current gear is 4/8 T6 with illidan helm, rage bracers, mother boots, dst ect.. so my YO's values should be somewhat similar to what high end SP gear comes out to. I value armor pen at .37

If someone would like to explain the reasons for this choice I'd be very appriciative.

Thanks

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