Agreed. Do you really need a macro to do that much for you? We only use a total of 3 attacks and some totems. I've done some fiddling and finally fixed how Yo!'s works for me. Thanks a bunch.
I've been having trouble with Yo's sim recently. It seems like the program just dies on me whenever i set the simulation hour to 20000 hour or more. I've tried redownloading Java, but that doesn't seem to help the case.
My first post here hope it's in the right place. I read through most of the Shaman pages for Enhance and could not find exactly what I was looking for so I apologize if I missed it. This is a question about the gains from grace of air vs windfury. I saw in the posts where if you are hunter or druid heavy to drop grace and if warrior rogue heavy drop windfury. What about when there is one rogue, one ret, one feral, and one hunter. It would seem that the grace totem helps everyone a bit and the windfury helps two a lot and two none. Is there a post or somewhere I can go to determine in this instance which totem is going to be more beneficial to the group as a whole? Is the gain from windfury for two people enough to make up for the smaller gains from grace for everyone? Again sorry if i missed this somewhere else.
My first post here hope it's in the right place. I read through most of the Shaman pages for Enhance and could not find exactly what I was looking for so I apologize if I missed it. This is a question about the gains from grace of air vs windfury. I saw in the posts where if you are hunter or druid heavy to drop grace and if warrior rogue heavy drop windfury. What about when there is one rogue, one ret, one feral, and one hunter. It would seem that the grace totem helps everyone a bit and the windfury helps two a lot and two none. Is there a post or somewhere I can go to determine in this instance which totem is going to be more beneficial to the group as a whole? Is the gain from windfury for two people enough to make up for the smaller gains from grace for everyone? Again sorry if i missed this somewhere else.
Why doesn't everyone just totem twist? This issue wouldn't exist then.
I'd limit my response to "^^^" if it wouldn't get me an infraction.
Twisting is awesome because it means you don't have to care about whether WF or GoA is better. Ask any rogue, warrior, paladin, druid, or hunter how much DPS they actually gain from WF or GoA and nine times out of ten they'll either dodge the question or lie. Most people don't know, and they don't want you to know, because then you might make the informed decision that the air totem they want isn't optimal for the group. Fortunately twisting exists because it spares us having to listen to endless whining from people who aren't getting the air totem they want.
(Also, windfury unless the ret paladin is terrible. But seriously, just start twisting.)
Horus, that macro results in 10s without Windfury every minute, not even considering the interference from stormstrike. You've essentially sandwiched a 10s cycle inside a 12s one.
Stop macroing. It takes away your control, plus you guys are bad at it. Mostly because it's a bad class to macro.
WFT vs GoA
WFT is an awesome buff for arms warriors and ret pallies (15%+ to total DPS). It is a great buff for fury warriors and rogues (7%+ to total DPS).
GoA is a pretty good buff for all melee plus hunters -- average of a 3% buff to total DPS.
The calculus of which to use -- if you can only use one -- is pretty simple. Add up the amount gained to your rets, warriors and rogues, and compare that to the amount gained by everybody. Don't feel like doing math? Drop WFT if there's at least ONE warrior or ONE ret pally or TWO rogues.
Loss & Gain through twisting
No matter how smart you think you are at macroing, the most shocks per minute you can get while twisting without screwing up the rotation is 8 per minute, and it's safest to limit yourself to 6 per minute. The most shocks you can possibly do is 9.7.
This means twisting costs you 1.7 to 3.7 shocks per minute. At ~1100 damage per shock, that's around 31-68 dps.
What you gain is the full benefit of WFT as noted above, plus an average of 2.7% additional dps for all melee in the group (90% of the GoA benefit, reflecting the 1s per 10s that GoA is not up). So as long as your group does more than 2500 dps together, you will get more benefit from twisting and only shocking once every 10s than you will from shocking on the CD and leaving down WFT.
Why wouldn't you twist?
- If your rogues and warriors' gear was so poor that 7-15% extra dps is still less than 68.
- If your mana pool is so low SR alone wasn't enough to sustain the cycle, and you needed your potion cooldown for something else. Seeing as I raid with 4500 mana, I do not think this argument has much weight.
- If you're on interrupt duty and can't afford the extra cooldowns.
- If you were Elemental/Enh, where 25% more expensive totems and 12 shocks per minute might quickly bankrupt your mana.
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 07/16/08 at 4:59 PM.
I have read most of the posts here (not all, most).
I am also a enhancement shaman currently raiding T5 content.
Some of my observations: You want double Windfury(WF).
You want to Dual Wield(DW) slow weapons.
Ideally, you don't want your Off Hand(OH) WF to proc as it has less damage than a Main Hand (MH) proc and resets the 3 second internal timer. In this manner, if your OH weapon procs and it is faster there is a chance that it will steal the cooldown from your MH from ever procing.
Here is my question:
If you don't ever want your OH to proc (in an ideal world), can a shaman not simply use a slow (2.6-2.8) MH with WF (maximum damage effect from the WF) and a fast(1.4-1.8) OH weapon with Frostbrand (a nice constant steady 321-322damage)?
I do understand that if a WF proc'ed off your OH then it would be more damage than 321-322 damage from FB... but that in turn steals the potential for the MH to proc... or am I missing something vital in this analysis?
When I attempt to use a weapon setup in line with my theory I seem to get a greater DPS than double WF.
If someone out there could set me on the straight and narrow... Thanks.
If you don't ever want your OH to proc (in an ideal world)
Then you are bound for failure.
While it is true than an offhand will proc and that this will block main hand procs for 3s, it is also true that having WF on both weapons increases the chance for EITHER weapon to proc to 36%.
Twice as many swings plus a higher proc chance per swing means you get much more Windfury damage with dual WF. Basically, you're waiting three times as long for windfury procs with only one weapon furied. It doesn't matter half of those procs are from the offhand, you're still doing more damage.
This is ignoring that fast weapons make for smaller stormstrikes and you'd lose DPS there, too.
Use slow weapons and you will do well. Use fast weapons, and you will do bad. Learn the mechanics if you want to know why, or just feel secure that the best shaman in the world use slow weapons exclusively.
Also: please don't highlight your stupid questions with bold text.
/castsequence reset=9 Windfury Totem,Grace of Air Totem, Ancestral Spirit
uses the reset timer to time the WFT drop (Ancestral Spirit can't be used in combat; it basically "blocks" the macro for 9s after GoA). This allows me to keep SS separate from my twisting macros, so I can switch between WFT->TA and WFT->GoA as needed.
i'm not definitely positive on that but doesn't trying to cast ancestral spirit (or any other ooc spell with cast time) in combat also reset your swing timers? that would be... you know... a bummer.
No, if you can't cast a spell in combat, trying to cast it shouldn't reset your swing timers. Nor should it reset your cast sequence.
Not that it matters -- you never hit the macro three times anyway. The whole point is to provide a visual cue that 9s have past since GoA was dropped, and it's time to refresh WFT. If you're really worried, swap it out for Water Shield or something similar...but then refreshing water shield will reset the macro, and you'll need to eye your totem timer.
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 07/17/08 at 1:25 PM.
Development is bit slow as I have actually started playing wow again. Next I'm doing enchants. I am bit unsure on the mechanics: does PPM stay constant with haste effects? Is there penalty proccing with off hand? Also with trinkets..how is the PPM calculated with dual wielding. Does trinkets proc only from mh attacks?
I am also looking for a place to find PPM/proc chance for different enchants/trinkets. Any help is greatly appreciated.
While we're on the subject of twisting, I just had my first experience with it this last weekend in Mags. My group consisted of a prot warrior (the main tank), a feral druid, ret paladin, a rogue, and myself. The first attempt (which lasted until 4%) I just had WFT down because I hadn't yet realized the awesome power of Judgement of Wisdom. However, the second attempt I twisted using the SS cooldown as my timer. I'd use SS, then drop WFT and the GoA. I know the WF buff slipped occasionally because there were times when I was in the GCD when the SS cd came up, or was trying to reposition myself after getting bounced around and didn't get it down in time.
In any case, my dps went up by 40 (to 1200), the rogues went up by 20 (to 1240), and the paladin dropped by 80 (to 920), I didn't even think to notice the druid or tank's dps. Now I know it's not a closed environment so these changes could merely be because of human error, but I'm wondering how much the WF buff slipping hurts classes and if I should continue doing it (especially on progression bosses), knowing that I haven't perfected it yet.
It seems to me the classes most hurt by WF slipping would be arms warriors and ret paladins, as they wield slow weapons and depend on massive damage with each swing. So each time they hit without the WF buff, they're losing out on potentially 1.5-2k damage if it would have procced. Assuming it's slipping for 1 second every 10 (which is a high estimate), and they have a weapon speed of 3.8, the odds of them swinging in that window are about 25%. Since WFT has a 20% chance to proc, they're losing out on .20*.25*2000 = 100 damage every 11 seconds, or about 9 dps. That should easily be made up for by the crit benefits of GoA though.
That was about as heavy into the math as I could go. I'm just want to hear other's opinions on how crucial it is to time twisting absolutely perfectly, and if a slightly irregular cycle will still increase raid dps. I'm also trying to take the blame off myself for the pally's drop in dps .
Well, your math is a little belabored, but the results seem accurate enough.
I think of it this way: they're missing 1s of possible proc time every 11s, decreasing the efficacy of windfury by 1/11 or 9%. Swing speed doesn't matter, because overtime 9% of ANY speed of swing would fall into that gap.
So rather than being a 20% MH buff, it's an 18% MH buff, if you lose that 1s every time.
However, you're most likely doing what I call a 2-1-1 rotation, slipping in 2 shocks after the first SS-WFT-GOA combo and 1 after the next two. If you jut up your cooldowns -- SS then WT then GoA -- you will never be able to shock twice in the middle of the cycle without pushing it back -- 1.5 (SS GCD) + 2 (totem GCD) + 6 (shock cd) + 1.5 (shock GCD) = 11s. If you leave at least 1.5s between your totem drops and your strike, you can maintain this indefinitely without screwing up the cycles...but it's tricky. One way to do this is to keep shocks and totem drops on separate keys. Start combat by dropping WFT-GoA, then shock, then strike. Reset timers and the SS CD should keep you in sync after that.
Either way, it's 1s lost every 31s. That gives you 96% of a perfect twist. If .8% of your melee group's MH DPS is less than the DPS you gain from 1 extra shock every 30s (~25 dps I'd say), then you have little to worry about.
This of course all assumes a perfect, lagless playstyle. This simply isn't the case -- indeed, I had a bad week last week where my guys lost 5% of the benefit of WFT. The safest, most raid friendly way to twist is to just lose the extra shock, and do straight up SS-WFT-Goa-FS. Of course, it's a ~50 dps loss.
Alright, so ideally you'd want to use SS and dropping totems in sync, but 5 seconds apart from each other. That way you'd only ever have to wait a max of 3 seconds for a Shock when it comes off cooldown (assuming it comes off cd only 1 second before you're supposed to redrop WFT you'd have to wait until after you twist). So I either need to get a timer, or set up that macro you listed above that times it for me. Or next time I know I'm raiding with a ret paladin I'll just spec ele/enh for 5 second shocks. That makes life so easy SS/WFT/GoA/FS/ES and repeat every 10 seconds like clockwork.
Alright, so looking at the buff slipping decreasing the efficiancy by 9%, it would still stand to reason that arms warriors and ret paladins are going to hurt more for missing it than rogues or fury warriors, because a slower swing speed means WF is more powerful.
And I'll admit it, I'm too selfish to lose around 50 dps of my own in order to boost the raid. Unfortunately, even though I'm the only well geared enhance shaman, I'm often forced into resto because my gear there is good as well. So to me, the more times I lead the damage meters, the more they'll believe that I'm neccessary as enhance. I know, bad logic, but I'm to the point I'm grasping at straws here .
Unfortunately, even though I'm the only well geared enhance shaman, I'm often forced into resto because my gear there is good as well. So to me, the more times I lead the damage meters, the more they'll believe that I'm neccessary as enhance. I know, bad logic, but I'm to the point I'm grasping at straws here .
It's great logic. If you are trying to impress people to join a guild or convince them of your utility, big numbers are certainly one way to do that.
Of course, saying "guys, my DPS is going to slip by 50 tonight because I'm going to be giving up all my stormstrikes to the elemental and twist on the cooldown" should also impress the raid...
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 07/24/08 at 1:58 PM.
Of course, saying "guys, my DPS is going to slip by 50 tonight because I'm going to be giving up all my stormstrikes to the elemental and twist on the cooldown" should also impress the raid...
Man, another reason to go to 5 sec shocks. You can always use ES right before you SS and never be taking the charges from them. Thanks for the help Toots. I think what I'll end up doing is setting up a two macros
/castsequence reset=7 Grace of Air, Ancestral Spirit
This way, the GoA macro will swap back when I'm effectively "locked out" of shocks for the second and a half before WFT needs to be dropped again, and the WFT macro will swap every 10 seconds for me to use as a timer for the buff.
Then, if I start each battle with WFT/GoA/pause (for aggro reasons)/FS/SS, I'll stop the WF buff from slipping at the expense of my shocks, but even then, worst case for waiting on a shock is 3 seconds.
I'd like to paraphrase the prot warrior theorycrafters: "Here are a lot of tanking macros. We ask you not to use them; they will make you a worse tank."
Incidentally, the Recount will now tell you exactly what each member of your group gets from WFT. So I wrote them down:
Fist Rogue (20/41/0): 5.6% of damage from WFT
Dagger Rogue (15/41/5): 7.3% of damage from WFT and lead the board
Fury Warrior: 5.9% of damage from WFT
"Sword" Rogue (11/28/20, don't get me started): 6.3% of damage from WFT
I was using a manual 2-1-1 shock rotation, nothing but flame. Spell damage went down 6%, about a 72 dps loss Had to pot 1 time.
Hey, all those macros will do for me is dupicate a totem timer addon without me having to actually download the addon .
Hmm... a little lower than I expected from those Recount numbers, but I guess I expected it to be lower with rogues and fury warriors. It does play a bigger part in pally/arms dps though right? I'll have to check out the numbers from my last raid when I get home next week, I don't think I've reset recount since then...
Well at the moment i'm trying to get into one of the more successfull guilds you might say, but since my equipment is laking i did some research, checked out Lootrank with the EP values from the Enhancement Thread, but i still have to clarify one thing because, while based on numbers it's true, -and damn do i like numbers- it still seems odd ecspecially for non theorycrafters which i will problably have to convince that i'm right, so :
Considering Sunwell and maybe late Black Temple Performance as Enhancement-shaman, do i need any Tier6 piece at all?
Pre-Sunwell tier6 that is, and if so is it the same with sunwell tier6 pieces?
No, all the pre Sunwell pieces of tier 6 are terrible and the set bonuses are worthless unless you have the 3 sunwell pieces. You will want to use non set mail and leather pieces, specifically things like Bowsitched leggings, fists of mukoa, forest prowlers helm, midnight chestguard, and shoulders of the hidden predator. All of these are better than the same slot tier 6 equivalent pieces. That being said, Enhance tier 6 is not so bad that you should let it rot, depending on your current gear, the randomness of drops, and dkp system your guild uses you will probably want to get tier 6 pieces anyway. The legs and chest are easily the worst 2 pieces of the set.
07/15/08, 2:08 PM
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