◊ Shalas

The value of stats varies with what your other stats are. Suppose you have two shaman, where Shaman A has 1000 AP, Shaman B has 2000 AP, and they are otherwise identical. Adding one AP to each will increase thier DPS by the exact same amount, but adding 1% crit will do vastly more for Shaman B. As a result, going from 1000 to 2000 AP while holding everything else constant has increased the value of crit relative to AP, increasing its EP value. Obviously you'll never see swings that large in the real world, but as you move between tiers the stat allocations change, both simply because there's a lot of variation in how gear is itemized and because the addition of stats like haste throw off the white : yellow damage ratio, in turn effecting the value of hit.

 

• Binkenstein

First time round I was just looking at 6 second DPS, second time around was 12.
Also had some numbers there for if you were using your own SS charges on all ES casts.

 

vokzhen

Wouldn't it pretty much always be higher raid DPS to allow the SS charges to be used by an elemental shammy? Unless I screwed something up, I'm getting that even a non-crit LO proc is significantly more damage than the average ES for an enhance shammy.

 

Malan

Yes, always better to structure your shocks to allow them to have the stormstrike debuffs.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Ardonomus

So you're indirectly saying that we should always be FS spamming? Since the ES FS rotation is only superior if we get our stormstrike charges for ourselves, which we shouldnt since we're supposed to try to structure it around benefiting others?

 

Rhaegal

I remember reading a post in the ridiculous megathread that I can't find for the life of me now. Someone had data showing that mongoose uptime is slightly (3-4%, if i remember correctly) higher from the mainhand given equal speed weapons, and used that information to conclude that Executioner was better placed on main hand over off hand, obviously assuming your gear is such that Executioner outperforms Mongoose. Or maybe they had equal speed weapons with Executioner/Mongoose, and showed that Exec had higher uptime in main hand. Something like that. I'm okay with the logic, I just would love to find a link to the source if anyone still has it around.

Assuming I'm not making this up, it begs the question, "Why would a proc favor the main hand?" I've been searching for someone to suggest, and either be supported or shot down, Stormstrike favoring MH WFs, but while I've found several instances of people showing more MH WFs than OH on long sessions with a Servant in Blasted Lands, I haven't seen any real solid evidence of the source of that imbalance. Can anyone confirm/deny, or point me to a post I'm missing?

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

Malan

Well you can structure your FS-ES rotation such that you never ES right after a SS.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Mengus

I believe that the answer lies in the mechanics, and how dw attacks are handled by the game. Through various in game testing, it was found that not entering combat until you were actually in melee range would make the MH hit first. If you were already in combat, ran away, and came back and attacked while still in combat, your MH had less chance of hitting first.

Basically, the answer is to stop attacking when not in range, and don't begin an attack until you are actually in range, and this behavior will favor the MH hitting first, thus an overall higher chance to proc.

 

• Daler

Additionally, SS calculates the MH first, so if you reserve your SS until the WF 3-sec cooldown is up, you will see more MH WFs over time.

 

Killme888

There's so much misunderstanding of what was posted. Malan says that FS spam is superior, when COMPARED to ES spam w/o SS charges, while ES spam is better otherwise. But FS + ES rotation is always the best.

 

Rhaegal

I think this mostly answers my 'why' question. I always wondered how WoW decided which hit would get a WF when you SS outside the WF CD, as I've seen both MH and OH WFs that seem to have procced off SS. Thanks for the info!

And to Ardonomus: Just be observant with raid debuffs, which you should already be anyway. Deciding which shock to use should always be made on the fly in the second or so before the CD comes up, not with a perfectly alternating cycle. Get a target frame that organizes raid debuffs so that your debuffs are always at one end of the list (pitbull does this, not sure if it's part of the default UI or not), and basically run through this in your head:

IF there is no Flame Shock debuff up, THEN Flame Shock
ELSE IF there are Stormstrike charges up AND at least one Elemental Shaman in the raid, THEN Flame Shock
ELSE Earth Shock

Even if there is no Elemental Shaman in the raid, it's good practice to go through this thought process anyway, because we will miss a fairly significant portion of our flame shocks due to low spell hit. If you have a perfectly alternating cycle, you're losing DPS by earth shocking out of habit instead of recognizing the resist and flame shocking next CD.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

Killme888

The reason why you've seen both MH and OH WF procs is obvious, MH simply didnt proc.

Now to test if MH does indeed take priority over OH for WF procs, someone would need check the proc rate of MH and OH when you SS. The MH proc rate should be much higher than the OH if MH does take priority.

 

Malan

You mean earth shocks I assume?

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Rhaegal

Nope. A resisted Earth Shock doesn't throw off a FS / ES rotation, but a fully resisted Flame Shock will (or at least should) make you do FS (resist) / FS / ES. There won't be as many full resists of FS as we see for ES, so it won't happen as often that the DoT doesn't get applied, but it does happen.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

fangar

So I'm going to use this as a Yo's Simulator question thread.

I recently got a number of upgrades over the last three weeks and have been dutifully running Yos each and every time that.

I knew that there was a bug with haste potions and the EP ranks. It seems to still exist unless the math gets really funky when you chug haste potions. I'm not quite sure, but I know that with my gear (1730 AP, 37% crit, 19% hit. ZERO haste, 338 ARMPEN) I am getting the following values for haste with and without the new modeled haste potions.

W/ Haste - 1.53
W/out Haste - 2.03

I haven't even tested any effect drums would have, but I would expect haste to be about equal to STR so I didn't question it. Anyone else with these findings?

I'm also getting only about a 15 DPS difference in the sim, which doesn't intuitively make sense to me, but I know that there is no accounting for cooldown stacking (Zerker's Call/BL/Haste) like there are in the mage models.

For the love of god please read the Original Post!

 

Ardonomus

Allright, I got confused when I read it then. I thought it was said that FS\ES rotation was only superior if we had the SS debuffs for ourselves, otherwise FS should be spammed. Thanks for clarifying this.

In my case my SS debuffs are there for 0.5-1.0s and then it's gone. I use a mod (can't remember the name.. Class Timers or something) to show the debuff of SS and FS on the target and the SS bar disappears way too fast for me to even land an earth shock after the GCD is finished. It's a "now you see me, now you don't" situation really.

The way I do it now is that I prioritize FS to be up, if it's resisted I do another to have the debuff up. In general it's SS>Shock>Twist, which means the group will lose 1-2 seconds of WF every other cycle I think. I still haven't experimented with timing SS, as enhancer doesn't properly show that on my version (everyone's posted that it's fubar now, and mine works for my needs so I haven't updated it..).

 

• Binkenstein

Shock priority should be:
1) Flame shock if SS was just used
2) Flame shock if dot is not up
3) Earth shock.

Because even if you clip the dot, you'll still be doing more damage (and more importantly, there will be more raid dps) than using ES in a typical rotation.

 

Morelis

Does anyone have a link to where this was decided on? I attempted to test this a long time ago and came to the conclusion that both hands had a roughly equal chance to proc WF on SS. If it were in fact always checking the MH first the numbers should have been heavily slanted given the 36% chance on hit.

 

Rhaegal

Specifically, you should get ~ 50% more MH WFs off of Stormstrike, as the observed chance for an OH WF would be 23% if it does work this way. You would also observe an overall 59% chance to proc WF off of Stormstrike in this case, instead of 72%, which would be the case if it was a straight one-roll "does a weapon Windfury" roll (36% MH, 36% OH, 28% none). The other reasonable possibility is that two parallel rolls are performed instead of sequential rolls. In other words, you hit Stormstrike, it lands, and the client fires off two processes, one to see if the MH procs WF, one to see if the OH does. 46% of the time, one will proc and the other won't and another 41% of the time, neither will proc. In either of those circumstances it's not a problem. The 13% of the time that both processes come back as a proc, it will just give the WF to the process that completed first, which is most likely going to be arbitrary. (I don't know that for sure. It's been a while since I've cared about OS process handling orders. If two identical processes are sent sequentially, which they would have to be, are they always resolved in the order sent?) I vaguely remember this possibility being discussed in the megathread as well.

Both of the "two-roll" possibilities end up having the same overall chance to proc WF (59%), so they would be indistinguishable from each other except by the relative amounts of MH and OH WFs.

I'd love to see a link to the original data on that, too, but it looks like we're going to have to come up with some more creative keyword combinations than we've been trying so far.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

Seidule

There's not really a megathread to theorycraft in, so:

In 2.4.2, apparently Dragonstrike is non-unique and One-Hand. Would that make DS/DS be the best combo in the game as of 2.4.2? It's like having a miniglaive!

 

Yakout

Instinctively, I'm guessing no. As the reason [Dragonstrike] is so good is the proc and not the stats, unless it can stack, which I'd assume it can't, DW-ing it would be non-optimal. Well... Is the proc PPM or on a CD? I suppose if it's not on a CD, refreshing it would lead to more uptime, but even then would that be enough to make up for the DPS loss?

 

Morelis

Dragonstrike is PPM based with no internal cooldown. The sim suggests it's still a top MH as I've found it scores within 1 or 2 DPS of S3 and the new badge weapons. If the proc stacks like mongoose does I have no doubt two of them would be a very solid combo. If it's like executioner where the proc timer is just refreshed it wouldn't fare so well. Considering how easy nethers and vortexes are to come by now it would be a great alternative to farming the 150 badges you need for the fist set.

 

Seidule

I'll have some spare time on Saturday to go to the PTR and make two of these -- I'll let you all know what I find.

 

david0925

According to this screenshot, the haste effect stacks
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...408_082754.jpg

Granted he has a drakefist hammer in his OH, but the buff should be identical (212 haste rating)

Maniq is my hero

 

xellos

Is it standard practice to hold your Stormstrike until outside the WF cooldown window in order to get a better chance of proccing WF? I was under the impression that SS is used on cooldown, but an applicant is claiming that you don't use SS if you're within the 3 second WF cooldown.