[Enhancement Shaman]Yo!? Help me - Page 3

Rhaegal · 04/24/08, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by xellos

Is it standard practice to hold your Stormstrike until outside the WF cooldown window in order to get a better chance of proccing WF? I was under the impression that SS is used on cooldown, but an applicant is claiming that you don't use SS if you're within the 3 second WF cooldown.

It depends a little on spec and who you talk to, but the short answer is: yes.

Long answer: For Enh/elem subspec, GCDs are even more of a commodity than for Enh/resto, and delaying Stormstrike can throw off your shock rotation, and the whole point of that spec is to optimize your shock damage. However, for Enh/resto, many people use mods like Enhancer (assuming it's fully functional again, I haven't checked in a couple weeks) or DisqoDice to show when the WF CD is up, and hold their Stormstrikes until then, unless there's some other environmental or CD/GCD reason not to.

Chances are, if your app knows about the Windfury CD, knows that WF procs off SS, and is thinking about it enough to manipulate those facts to try to boost his DPS, he probably knows what he's doing.

Toots Hepcat · 04/24/08, 5:15 PM

Simulation shows a minor (bit less than 1%) improvement to total DPS by waiting SS for the WF cooldown. It also shows that if waiting the SS causes a shaman to lose 1 shock every 2 minutes, he's lost all benefit from waiting. This is true no matter what your offspec.

So there's a potential trade off. It sounds like your app knows his theory, though. Good luck with him!

Toots Hepcat · 04/24/08, 5:29 PM

Was wondering last night -- does anybody use a mod to track their current AP?

When all my procs go off, it's an extra 888 AP -- and an extra 266 spell damage. Refreshing Searing Totem at or near this peak should be a pretty significant increase to the totem's DPS.

• Daler · 04/24/08, 5:38 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Was wondering last night -- does anybody use a mod to track their current AP?

When all my procs go off, it's an extra 888 AP -- and an extra 266 spell damage. Refreshing Searing Totem at or near this peak should be a pretty significant increase to the totem's DPS.

Enhancer used to have a meter that would show your base AP and how far it was spiking. I'm not a fan of the current version, so I've stopped using it altogether, but it could still be there for all I know.

xellos · 04/24/08, 6:10 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Simulation shows a minor (bit less than 1%) improvement to total DPS by waiting SS for the WF cooldown. It also shows that if waiting the SS causes a shaman to lose 1 shock every 2 minutes, he's lost all benefit from waiting. This is true no matter what your offspec.

So there's a potential trade off. It sounds like your app knows his theory, though. Good luck with him!

Thanks for the replies, but I'm not completely sold that he knows his TC. He claims that it's more effective if you use ES if you know the SS debuff is up and just use FS if it's not. Looking at his Dustyy - WWS it seems like he doesn't do FS>ES. I'm pretty sure that FS>ES is more dps no matter what and asked him about it, but no reply yet. If I'm in the wrong, please correct me.

• promdates · 04/24/08, 6:30 PM

Originally Posted by Daler

Enhancer used to have a meter that would show your base AP and how far it was spiking. I'm not a fan of the current version, so I've stopped using it altogether, but it could still be there for all I know.

I updated Enhancer when he changed it, and quickly went back and reverted to a previous version. You can probably find it at Index of /Enhancer/ just go back to like end of last month or whenever it was before he changed it.

The only thing you don't get is the WF cooldown, which you can use WF3sec for. Now, if only WF3sec had a GUI to edit it instead of having to type commands the entire time to get it to move around the screen and resize it... *wishful thinking*

Varag · 04/24/08, 9:53 PM

Any word yet from test if either the [Claw of Molten Fury] or the [Talon of the Phoenix] is becoming a one-hand weapon next patch?

Morelis · 04/25/08, 1:48 AM

Originally Posted by Yuma

Any word yet from test if either the [Claw of Molten Fury] or the [Talon of the Phoenix] is becoming a one-hand weapon next patch?

[Talon of the Phoenix] is still main-hand only.

niurou · 04/25/08, 4:19 AM

Hmm, I was also curious about enchant proc rates seeming to favour the main-hand from the previous page. In Yo's sim, even when I turned off anything I could think of that would influence it (windfury + stormstrike) the forensic report still shows the main-hand having higher uptime.

I tried searching these forums and on google for any reason why this might be the case, but was unable to find anything. Is there some mechanic with enchants and dual wielding that I'm not aware of? (or maybe I was just wording my searches poorly)

Killme888 · 04/25/08, 5:57 AM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Was wondering last night -- does anybody use a mod to track their current AP?

When all my procs go off, it's an extra 888 AP -- and an extra 266 spell damage. Refreshing Searing Totem at or near this peak should be a pretty significant increase to the totem's DPS.

Searing is based off of your current spell damage, not when it's cast. You can easily test this out by dropping it, check the damage, equip a spell damage weapon, watch the damage go up.

Ardonomus · 04/25/08, 8:35 AM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Was wondering last night -- does anybody use a mod to track their current AP?

When all my procs go off, it's an extra 888 AP -- and an extra 266 spell damage. Refreshing Searing Totem at or near this peak should be a pretty significant increase to the totem's DPS.

I use PowerDisplay for that.

Looks like this in my UI. http://www.ardonomus.com/wow/PowerDisplayUI.jpg

• Disquette · 04/25/08, 9:22 AM

Originally Posted by stabbymcgee

I updated Enhancer when he changed it, and quickly went back and reverted to a previous version. You can probably find it at Index of /Enhancer/ just go back to like end of last month or whenever it was before he changed it.

The only thing you don't get is the WF cooldown, which you can use WF3sec for. Now, if only WF3sec had a GUI to edit it instead of having to type commands the entire time to get it to move around the screen and resize it... *wishful thinking*

Didn't Hedin write WF3sec using Ace2?

If so, any of the Ace2 graphical config mods would help. I got one, I'm not sure from where (it must have been embedded in some other mod I use), and I love it. I think it is this one: DeuceCommander - WowAce Wiki or something similar

Toots Hepcat · 04/25/08, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by xellos

Thanks for the replies, but I'm not completely sold that he knows his TC. He claims that it's more effective if you use ES if you know the SS debuff is up and just use FS if it's not. Looking at his Dustyy - WWS it seems like he doesn't do FS>ES. I'm pretty sure that FS>ES is more dps no matter what and asked him about it, but no reply yet. If I'm in the wrong, please correct me.

Look, I don't know if what he's doing is "wrong," but any shaman doing close to 2100 dps (personal + searing) sounds like a keeper to me. Even if his info is off, or slightly unscientific, he has super gear and can play his class very well.

Yeah, in raids FS is awesome (due to higher spell damage coefficient, scorch debuff, etc) and ES is really only in the cycle to allow FS the full 12s to tick down. I'd point this out to your man, just to gauge his reaction.

BTW: 16 tries on the same boss in one night? I want a buy your whole raid a Coke. Their stamina is admirable.

• Daler · 04/25/08, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by xellos

Thanks for the replies, but I'm not completely sold that he knows his TC. He claims that it's more effective if you use ES if you know the SS debuff is up and just use FS if it's not. Looking at his Dustyy - WWS it seems like he doesn't do FS>ES. I'm pretty sure that FS>ES is more dps no matter what and asked him about it, but no reply yet. If I'm in the wrong, please correct me.

Actually, given the raid comp (no elem shaman, boomkin doing MF/SF rotation), his ES gains the most out of any nature damage source present. So he's not 100% off his rocker, but FS/ES is still a better choice, even with SS.

Neithan · 04/25/08, 3:16 PM

I am a crappy math Junkie. With change of [Dragonstrike] to one-hand non-unique (with stacking proc too) would they outperform [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] and [Mounting Vengeance] (kinda sucks as I dropped BS 3 days ago but whatever)?

Edit: Meh, I should not post questions after 4th night shift. Missed discussion about it on previous page. Still no math though.

Killme888 · 04/25/08, 7:44 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Look, I don't know if what he's doing is "wrong," but any shaman doing close to 2100 dps (personal + searing) sounds like a keeper to me. Even if his info is off, or slightly unscientific, he has super gear and can play his class very well.

Yeah, in raids FS is awesome (due to higher spell damage coefficient, scorch debuff, etc) and ES is really only in the cycle to allow FS the full 12s to tick down. I'd point this out to your man, just to gauge his reaction.

BTW: 16 tries on the same boss in one night? I want a buy your whole raid a Coke. Their stamina is admirable.

Well, he did get 4 heroisms.. and did 1926 dps not counting searing, seems a bit on the low end for 4 heroisms imo.

• promdates · 04/25/08, 8:08 PM

Originally Posted by Disquette

...stuff...

This is true, but I meant more like "show an anchor and drag it" type of thing.

Mkael · 04/25/08, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by xellos

Thanks for the replies, but I'm not completely sold that he knows his TC. He claims that it's more effective if you use ES if you know the SS debuff is up and just use FS if it's not. Looking at his Dustyy - WWS it seems like he doesn't do FS>ES. I'm pretty sure that FS>ES is more dps no matter what and asked him about it, but no reply yet. If I'm in the wrong, please correct me.

Well FS/ES overlap obviously is more DPS I dont think he argues that it isnt, however I do think that he is aiming for a cycle where he makes sure that the SS is up for the ES and basically builds around that instead of if the FS debuff is up. This obviously is wrong, a full duration FS provides much more DPS than a buffed ES so prio should be FS.

Also the risk of prioritizing ES is that it becomes a habit, thus making it a bigger issue in raids with nature dmg sources that would benefit from the SS debuff and also it might become "routine" to just press the ES button.

Looking at the WWS he definitely does too much ES dmg but also the log is weird, I didnt see a searing accredited to him and also I didnt see a StE totem buff anywhere (might have missed it dunno but then again WWS after 2.4 is a bit messed up).

NOTE: It also becomes an issue wether the debuffs are falling off the boss, if thats the case I dont see a reason to FS at all and try to consume the SS debuff if its available becomes a prio. This might be an issue on Brutallus more than any other boss atm.

Also with all the spellmisses etc the DPS loss for this scenario isnt that big so not much to argue about in the raid setup he had, in others with nature dmg casters it might be but anyway.

Mkael · 04/25/08, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by Neithan

I am a crappy math Junkie. With change of [Dragonstrike] to one-hand non-unique (with stacking proc too) would they outperform [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] and [Mounting Vengeance] (kinda sucks as I dropped BS 3 days ago but whatever)?

Why would it? I mean if Dragonstrike was that good why did you swap it out for [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality], so obviously it isnt good enough for your mainhand and heck vanirs OH is just as good as MH so theres no impact on that either (mounting is ofc better than Vanirs so logic dictates etc etc etc)

darkhorse · 04/25/08, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by Mkael

Why would it? I mean if Dragonstrike was that good why did you swap it out for [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality], so obviously it isnt good enough for your mainhand and heck vanirs OH is just as good as MH so theres no impact on that either (mounting is ofc better than Vanirs so logic dictates etc etc etc)

Yes by itself dragonstrike was being beaten by some weapons for damage stakes. However they key to the double Dragonstrike weapon is not is Dragonstrike > Weapon X & is Dragonstrike > Weapon Y but is Dragonstrike+Dragonstrike > Weapon X + Weapon Y due to double dipping of the haste proc.

Mkael · 04/27/08, 5:41 AM

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Yes by itself dragonstrike was being beaten by some weapons for damage stakes. However they key to the double Dragonstrike weapon is not is Dragonstrike > Weapon X & is Dragonstrike > Weapon Y but is Dragonstrike+Dragonstrike > Weapon X + Weapon Y due to double dipping of the haste proc.

Dont see the difference, if the haste wouldnt stack it would be bad, now it does stack so they can be treated like 2 separate events totally. The benefit of double stack i just if you can time it with boosters but you cant really wait around for a proc to use those.

Toots Hepcat · 04/28/08, 3:59 PM

Just did a series of sims on my own gear.

DS (plus proc) + Vanir's Left Fist:
1457 dps

DS (plus proc) + a second DS (no value for OH proc):
1445 dps

DS + DS (no DS proc included):
1420 dps

Minimum amount of passive Haste % required to raise the 2xDS combo to 1445 DPS (e.g. the passive haste equivalent of the DS proc for my gear): 3.6%

DS + DS (no DS procs and 7.2% Haste):
1474 dps

Looks like I better start farming mats for a second DS. (Doh! More wasted badges.)

xellos · 04/28/08, 5:10 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Look, I don't know if what he's doing is "wrong," but any shaman doing close to 2100 dps (personal + searing) sounds like a keeper to me. Even if his info is off, or slightly unscientific, he has super gear and can play his class very well.

Yeah, in raids FS is awesome (due to higher spell damage coefficient, scorch debuff, etc) and ES is really only in the cycle to allow FS the full 12s to tick down. I'd point this out to your man, just to gauge his reaction.

BTW: 16 tries on the same boss in one night? I want a buy your whole raid a Coke. Their stamina is admirable.

Thanks for the replies once again; some points were brought up that I did not consider. We ended up denying his application for other reasons though. 1900 is impressive until you see he got 4 Bloodlusts and 10 Drums of Battle. We're currently trying out our elemental as enhancement and it seems to be working ok in the mean time. In response to your btw Toots, that wasn't my guild, but we did do a full night of Felmyst wipes so I'll take your admiration nevertheless.

Tornhoof · 04/28/08, 5:46 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Just did a series of sims on my own gear.

DS (plus proc) + Vanir's Left Fist:
1457 dps

DS (plus proc) + a second DS (no value for OH proc):
1445 dps

DS + DS (no DS proc included):
1420 dps

Minimum amount of passive Haste % required to raise the 2xDS combo to 1445 DPS (e.g. the passive haste equivalent of the DS proc for my gear): 3.6%

DS + DS (no DS procs and 7.2% Haste):

I did several tests with weo2, if I take the proc to be 1ppm dual ds will be worse than your current combination, if it is 1.5ppm it is a few dps better than your combination.

A combination of both badge weapons is superior to your combinations though.

For those who care:
<item id="28439" name="Dragonstrike" unique="false" slot="OneHand" type="Weapon" subType="Mace" quality="Epic" level="136" override="true" dps="97.6" speed="2.7">
<attributes>
<attribute type="Stamina" value="19" />
<attribute type="Special" value="708087" />
</attributes>
</item>
is the appropriate entry for weo2's extraitems.xml

Toots Hepcat · 04/28/08, 6:41 PM

Tornhoof -- this is quite surprising; my simulations with 2x badge weapons showed the Vanir's MH only offered a moderate benefit over Dragonstrike (something like 8 dps). Course, I have picked up three upgrades since then, and the makeup of my raid group has changed (warrior with imp. battle shout and ret pally).

How does your mod model the difference in DPS due to weapon speed?

Either way, if dual DS really is an upgrade from DS/VLFB, I'll probably farm up another one. For now, my badges are better spend on something that's a bigger upgrade. Also, I think dual Dragonstrikes would look totally rad. Does this make me a bad shaman?