And yet, for all that you call it nonsense, after two pages of saying obviously weapon speed mattered for 1H just as much as for 2H, the one actual sim done confirmed my speculation: That between 1.6 and 2.9, it doesn't.
You didn't read my posts, did you? Get it straight -- absent flurry, haste and stormstrike, weapon speed doesn't matter. You actually have flurry, and a quick sim on that shows about a .5% dps benefit stepping from 2.4 to 2.6 and 3.6% benefit in stepping from a 1.6 to 2.6.
This is the sort of nonsense I'm talking about. You've specced yourself stupid, and then asked how to maximize your dps. The answer isn't "it doesn't matter," the answer is "respec."
Some quick napkin maths on [Blackened Naaru Sliver]. Obtained this shiny little baby last week and so got to test it on Brutallus this reset; Wow Web Stats
It has a 45s cd, with approx a 20% chance on proccing when not on CD. The Battle Trance effect is the actual proc, Combat Insight is the charges. On Average it takes me 4-8 seconds to gather a full stack. During the Battle Trance effect Hit, Expertise and Haste values GREATLY inflate. If I miss a few times it will take me longer to stack up than if I would hit all swings, obviously. The trinket DOES proc from Windfury hits and each Stormstrike swing, so if you manage to time your procs with SS+WF, you will greatly increase the speed in which you gain those stacks. If we assume the perfect scenario for each proc, we will have 4 seconds of low stacks, if we assume your melee attack speed fully buffed (Drums + Flurry + passive haste) is 2.0s (for easier calculations, of course, high end shamans manage to get attack speed lower than that) then we will have 2 stacks at the 2 second marker, followed by a Stormstrike + Windfury + Double melee swing at the 4second marker. I'm unsure on how to calculate it properly, as in precise - my maths knowledge is too limited for that.
But if we assume that during the first 4 seconds we have no stacks, then at the 4th second gain 440 AP the value for the trinket is as following:
During the 5 minute Brutallus, the trinket procced 6 times. That means the trinket was up for 96 seconds out of the 300 seconds the fight lasted (WWS recorded 305 seconds in combat, but that's due to the ooze coming out of Brutallus keeping you in combat). That's a 32% uptime, for a passive amount of 140.8 AP. Ending the trinket on:
Resulting in a grand total of 255.82 AEP, which has to be little higher due to not calculating the first 4 seconds of attack power and don't forget this is the ideal situation, it has taken me up to 8 seconds to get a full stack.
So without a doubt, the best trinket out there, even beating DST & Shard of Contempt. If someone knows how to properly calculate the value with the stacking effect, be my guest. I realise the 5 minute Brutallus is a little small of a benchmark, but it gives a pretty good idea. The trinket pretty much procs as soon as it's off cooldown. Of course, I forgot to check how the rogues did the calculation on the trinket, but I'm a bit too lazy. As far as usefulness is concerned. It's definitely better for Rogues, due to how fast their attacks are. Then you have Hunters/Warriors/Shamans. It's definitely no good for Arms and Ret Paladins, though. It might be their best option, but it's not the biggest upgrade in their hands.
Some quick napkin maths on [Blackened Naaru Sliver]. Obtained this shiny little baby last week and so got to test it on Brutallus this reset; Wow Web Stats
I did some rough math a few pages back, basically came to the same conclusion. Your proc aep is higher due to the fact that it probably proc'd and ended right near the boss death, therefore raising the uptime even though it should've been lower since you didn't count the first 4 seconds of proc,
Except for cases where debuffs cause loss of Hit %, no special attack should ever be Missed (only dodged/parried).
Now I was reviewing some of my previous reports in MH/BT and noticed that were quite a number of special attack missed (around 3% for WF and 5% circa for SS). I have about 17.5 hit with talents and was wondering if this figure of high misses on special attack is acceptable or I am doing something wrong in game.
I think that also other shamans could be in the same situation.
I was trying to compare these figures with my values fro YO! simulator, but, the Forensic report section has some points that could be unclear at first glance. So I would appreciate help on the evaluation of the missed statistic section of the simulator and the reason for these high misses on special attacks.
If you click on the row of either wf or stormstrike it will detail it out a bit more and you'll se that you didn't miss any of them actually but you got some dodges and parries on them. The miss on wws is the sum of misses dodges and parries.
Now I was reviewing some of my previous reports in MH/BT and noticed that were quite a number of special attack missed (around 3% for WF and 5% circa for SS). I have about 17.5 hit with talents and was wondering if this figure of high misses on special attack is acceptable or I am doing something wrong in game.
I think that also other shamans could be in the same situation.
I was trying to compare these figures with my values fro YO! simulator, but, the Forensic report section has some points that could be unclear at first glance. So I would appreciate help on the evaluation of the missed statistic section of the simulator and the reason for these high misses on special attacks.
It's been in multiple threads already that when in Mount Hyjal, the banshee curse decreases hit chance by a good chunk (66% if I'm not mistaken), which will skew the numbers - Always bear that in mind when looking at total DPS for a raid. In addition, on Yo!'s simulator, it has "Missed or Dodged" as the name of the heading for that statistic, and it's exactly that. Assuming you're behind the mob, you'll only hit or have a dodge with Stormstrike and Windfury. More expertise can fix the dodge issue. Otherwise, you're looking at the banshee curse in-game which is what's making it look like there's a worse dodge rate. You can reach the soft cap on hit with talents to avoid pure "Miss," but "Dodge" is reliant on expertise to remove from the combat table.
If you click on the row of either wf or stormstrike it will detail it out a bit more and you'll se that you didn't miss any of them actually but you got some dodges and parries on them. The miss on wws is the sum of misses dodges and parries.
Yes, thank you. Now I can see where the true problems lie (they are not related only to the trash of MH).
I think that you helped some more people other then me.
Apologies if this is a stupid question or has been answered elsewhere. I searched and couldn't find anything.
I am wondering about the proper use of consumables and cooldowns and how it may affect dps.
For example lets say you are an Orc enhancement shaman with leatherworking and you are doing straight dps on a fight like Teron Gorefiend. You have access to Bloodfury, Drums of Battle, Haste potions, and for this example the Berserker's call trinket. All of them have a 2min timers and vary between I think 15-30sec duration.
Again, maybe its a stupid question...but do you want to pop all these cooldown's together or perhaps spread them out over 2min? Would you get better overall dps from like 15-30sec of uber buff and then 1:30 of no cooldown buff or would your overall dps for a fight be better if you had constant buff from the various cooldowns applied one after another?
The general rule is to pop short cooldowns as soon as possible -- the sooner you hit them, the sooner they'll be up again. Bloodlust being a longer cooldown, you either save it for some crappy part of the fight you want to end quickly (such as p3 on Zul'Jin) or hit it early as insurance against dumb melee deaths.
You do want to try to pop cooldowns together if possible, as this will amplify the effect of each. +240 AP ~= +60 dps and with +30% speed ~= an additional +18 dps, and haste procs get better as you stack them too. Still, it's not worth waiting your 2 minute cooldowns for your 3 minute ones to be up. It *is* worth waiting Bloodlust until your big +AP cooldowns are up, though, or for when on-event procs bring your AP to some insane point.
Drums are a special case if you aren't the only one who has them. I don't, but two of my rogues and my feral do...they mention in party chat when they're going to hit them so we have the buff up 75% of the time.
I have Berzerking macroed with SS on an 8s reset, so I jam that button when 'zerking is up. Bloodlust Brooch I have mapped with Shamanistic Rage and haste potions on a 10s reset.
Final thoughts: obviously, don't pop anything right before a raidwide run, CC or aggro wipe. If you have aggro issues on a given fight, popping a lot of cooldowns close together is going to be a massive threat boost you don't need, and nobody wants to turn autoattack off with a haste buff ticking down. In that case you'll want to space them out.
I was just shown an addon written for rogues that automatically swaps 2 OH weapons during combat, 1 equipped with a poison and the other equipped with a sunwell oil from the daily quest. The addon automatically swaps out the oil weapon when the proc goes off, and equips the poison weapon until the cooldown on the oil has passed. I'm curious if you guys think this might be worthwhile for enhancement. Obviously the 2nd weapon would need to either be the same OH (such as 2 syphons) or at least be comparable (the badge weapons would probably suffice). I think that swapping the weapon resets the OH swing timer though right?
Swapping any weapons resets the swing timer for both weapons. Does this mod queue up a weapon swap and do it right after a main hand swing, to minimize time lost from the swap? Or does it go straight after the juice pops?
[Righteous Weapon Coating], 300 AP for 10s, 40s CD. At best it's worth 75 static AP, or around 19 dps at 1 AP: .25 dps.
It's an imbue, and as such would replace Windfury. Remember: having that OH WF imbue increases your main hand proc rate as well. Offhand windfury is worth about 153 dps using the default values on Yo's (it's worth even more to you or I). Now, assuming you could do a perfect switch, you'd need to proc within 8s or you're going to start to lose DPS.
Assuming you can't do a perfect switch...every 40s, you're going to reset the timer for 4s (once to swap in, once to swap out). You're losing at worst 9% of your autoattack DPS in addition to a large portion of your WF dps.
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 06/04/08 at 12:07 PM.
Also keep in mind that rogues suffer a shorter cooldown penalty then other classes for swapping weapons. 1 second instead of 1.5 I believe. Of course it shouldn't matter too much if you time it in between shock/SS cooldowns.
I had an interesting idle thought today while browsing the WotLK thread. From what's been datamined/leaked, it looks like melee crit and spell crit have been merged into the same stat in Wrath, along with hit and haste. If this went into effect today, I'd have 15% spell crit in my current enhance setup. This starts to make Elemental Devastation more appealing, doesn't it? It would certainly be interesting if ED became worthwhile.
I had an interesting idle thought today while browsing the WotLK thread. From what's been datamined/leaked, it looks like melee crit and spell crit have been merged into the same stat in Wrath, along with hit and haste. If this went into effect today, I'd have 15% spell crit in my current enhance setup. This starts to make Elemental Devastation more appealing, doesn't it? It would certainly be interesting if ED became worthwhile.
It would, the reason ED subspec is generally less effective is because most Shaman only have about 5% spell crit, so the odds of even getting ED to proc are already very slim. In addition you lose the 3% hit which helps if you don't have a lot of Hit Rating on your gear in the first place. If the 2 were to be merged I could see ED being ideal for T6+ raiding Shaman or in WotLK's case almost all Shaman.
Well, raiding with a 32% melee crit rate, this would mean a 37% crit chance for shocks, which should work out to about 20% shock damage bonus (shock crits do 50% more damage, but with 0% spell hit crits make up (crit rate/2) /83 % of your shock damage). You'd proc ED on average once every 3 shocks, for the equivalent of +6% crit which would no doubt feed back into the equation.
Well, raiding with a 32% melee crit rate, this would mean a 37% crit chance for shocks, which should work out to about 20% shock damage bonus (shock crits do 50% more damage, but with 0% spell hit crits make up (crit rate/2) /83 % of your shock damage). You'd proc ED on average once every 3 shocks, for the equivalent of +6% crit which would no doubt feed back into the equation.
A nice boost. But I bet ED would just change.
Hmm, a large number of that crit is from agi, would agi boost spell crit? I'd think that only crit rating would.
But if agi does indeed affect it, then ED would be pretty nice.
So I've read these forums for a long time, lurking and learning, and while a lot of the finer points of number crunching are beyond me, I've got a pretty solid base of knowledge about raiding enhancement shamans. I cannot seem to turn that knowledge into solid dps, however. I see the shamans that are doing 1800-2200 dps on melee-friendly fights, and while they are of course wearing superior gear, I don't see the gear making all the difference. I cap out at a little under 1600 in an arms war/rogue/rogue/me/feral druid group with the arms warrior occasionally being a BM hunter. We've got 3 drums (4 with hunter) and I've got full access to haste potions and a berserker's call, so I can hit some pretty nice bursts, but even twisting, rotating shocks (our ele shaman rarely shows up, some I'm usually getting my own SS charges) and trying to keep an eye on my WF timer for max SS effect, I can't hit 1600. The next step, of course, is to get a WWS log and see if anything jumps out at me, but I'm not looking forward to that, since I have a junk comp and I lag if I try to run too much stuff at one time.
So in the mean time, what secrets are these uber shamans keeping from me? I'm tearing my hair out trying to get up to at least 1750-1800 so I can pull my own weight on Brut, but I'm engaging in a continuous epic fail. I know gear is part of it, but after upgrading from Molten Fury/Syphon to Syphon/MV and only seeing a 20dps increase out of it, the gear can't be all of it. There just aren't enough gear slots where I could see that kind of fantastic jump in quality. I've got a few gems that could be upgraded (like ap/sta purp instead of str/sta), but again, it'd be such a miniscule rise that it's not really worth talking about.
Could it maybe be my weapon speed getting too fast? I know sometimes, when I've got procs and drums stacked, my speed is dipping below 1.5. With lust, I've seen it as low as 1.2 on the syphon and 1.1 on the MV, and I know there was some debate as to whether or not hasting beyond 1.5 caused a dip in dps or not. Like I said though, the finer points of the math are beyond me. Would I maybe be better off using Insane Strength Potions over Haste Potions?
Could it maybe be my weapon speed getting too fast? I know sometimes, when I've got procs and drums stacked, my speed is dipping below 1.5. With lust, I've seen it as low as 1.2 on the syphon and 1.1 on the MV, and I know there was some debate as to whether or not hasting beyond 1.5 caused a dip in dps or not.
No, there was never any data found that actually supported that claim. It is now regarded that even if haste drops you below 1.5 you will still see an increase in overall dmg done.
So I've read these forums for a long time, lurking and learning, and while a lot of the finer points of number crunching are beyond me, I've got a pretty solid base of knowledge about raiding enhancement shamans. I cannot seem to turn that knowledge into solid dps, however. I see the shamans that are doing 1800-2200 dps on melee-friendly fights, and while they are of course wearing superior gear, I don't see the gear making all the difference. I cap out at a little under 1600 in an arms war/rogue/rogue/me/feral druid group with the arms warrior occasionally being a BM hunter. We've got 3 drums (4 with hunter) and I've got full access to haste potions and a berserker's call, so I can hit some pretty nice bursts, but even twisting, rotating shocks (our ele shaman rarely shows up, some I'm usually getting my own SS charges) and trying to keep an eye on my WF timer for max SS effect, I can't hit 1600. The next step, of course, is to get a WWS log and see if anything jumps out at me, but I'm not looking forward to that, since I have a junk comp and I lag if I try to run too much stuff at one time.
So in the mean time, what secrets are these uber shamans keeping from me? I'm tearing my hair out trying to get up to at least 1750-1800 so I can pull my own weight on Brut, but I'm engaging in a continuous epic fail. I know gear is part of it, but after upgrading from Molten Fury/Syphon to Syphon/MV and only seeing a 20dps increase out of it, the gear can't be all of it. There just aren't enough gear slots where I could see that kind of fantastic jump in quality. I've got a few gems that could be upgraded (like ap/sta purp instead of str/sta), but again, it'd be such a miniscule rise that it's not really worth talking about.
Could it maybe be my weapon speed getting too fast? I know sometimes, when I've got procs and drums stacked, my speed is dipping below 1.5. With lust, I've seen it as low as 1.2 on the syphon and 1.1 on the MV, and I know there was some debate as to whether or not hasting beyond 1.5 caused a dip in dps or not. Like I said though, the finer points of the math are beyond me. Would I maybe be better off using Insane Strength Potions over Haste Potions?
Your gear seems alright although I see too much mail for my liking! T6 really isn't that great for enhancement, so if you can get your hands on [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] or any other shoulderpiece from BT, try that. T6 legs are really bad as well, try and get [Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer] from badges or [Bow-stitched Leggings] from MH. Also get [Angelista's Revenge]! It's only 60 badges and one of the best rings out there, I'm personally not a fan of the MH exalted ring but that's personal preference I guess.
Any reason you went for the mail badge chest instead of the leather one? The leather one is about 10 EP better for me. Might not seem like much, but it all adds up. Also, go get yourself a [Shard of Contempt] It's relatively easy to get and definately worth the trouble. You currently have no expertise on your gear while this is considered one of our, if not the best stat.
The next step, of course, is to get a WWS log and see if anything jumps out at me, but I'm not looking forward to that, since I have a junk comp and I lag if I try to run too much stuff at one time.
So in the mean time, what secrets are these uber shamans keeping from me?
Latency could be the reason for lower DPS, especially for melee classes. This is true especially in PvP but also in PVE.
Your gear seems alright although I see too much mail for my liking! T6 really isn't that great for enhancement, so if you can get your hands on [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] or any other shoulderpiece from BT, try that. T6 legs are really bad as well, try and get [Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer] from badges or [Bow-stitched Leggings] from MH. Also get [Angelista's Revenge]! It's only 60 badges and one of the best rings out there, I'm personally not a fan of the MH exalted ring but that's personal preference I guess.
Any reason you went for the mail badge chest instead of the leather one? The leather one is about 10 EP better for me. Might not seem like much, but it all adds up. Also, go get yourself a [Shard of Contempt] It's relatively easy to get and definately worth the trouble. You currently have no expertise on your gear while this is considered one of our, if not the best stat.
This is pretty much the same stuff that stood out to me when I checked the armory. In particular the two pieces of T6 are fairly major slots that are easily beaten by earlier drops in MH/BT. Overall, your melee stats strike me as quite close to my own, though I am significantly behind you in progression. (5/5, 4/9)
05/29/08, 12:18 PM
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