Fury DPS Spreadsheet for 3.0 - Page 12

Shha · 04/11/08, 3:58 AM

ANy chance of adding sword spec to your sheet Landsoul? Right now im running 26/35 (mostly for Felmyst), and im experimenting with it. Its actually pretty fun spec to play because of some tricks. Not amazing for most fights, but different + on felmyst it works really well (~490k dmg on Felmyst alone, with ~4 min of dps, so close to 2k dps while having no synergies really (resto shaman in group, no feral, no expose weakness, no haste pots) and being tc/demo bitch. Of course counting the dps time not the whole fight (i think it was 9 min kill so overall dps of course is closer to 950 or so). Its a nice spec when you really cant dps 100% of the time. Over the 4 min of dps i could use DW 3 times , always with drums on, and 1 with recklessness execute/heroism.

suicuique · 04/11/08, 5:31 AM

Originally Posted by landsoul

Suic., I need to know the speeds of your weapons please.

Nominal Weapon Speed 2.6 / 1.5

Haste Equip:
2.25 / 1.30 (MH/OH)
5626 Swings (563 misses) in 4550 sec

Nonhaste Equip:
2.56 / 1.48 (MH/OH)
5759 Swings (626 misses) in 5353 sec

Gruntle · 04/11/08, 5:47 AM

Originally Posted by Bettarg

Hello,

i have a question regard the Mainhand for a Furry Warrior. Iam well SSC/Tk geard, with a bit BT and Hyal Gear.
When i test the Spreadsheet , Dragonstrike is the best Mainhand for me except the Iillidan Blade. Can this be True ?

At MaxDPS.com - News Vanirs Mainhand is a lot better then Dragonstrike. How can a Blacksmith Weapon superior to a BT/Hyal Mainhand ?

Do not trust maxdps.com, it underestimates the value of haste a lot. This is because maxdps has no rage calculations and therefore cannot model either HS damage nor Execute damage properly.

At BT level gear Dragonstrike is just the best weapon there is (barring Warglaive MH). At lower level gear Vanir's fist should actually be better, but I haven't tried that in the sheet yet so better check it yourself.

I agree that T3 axe with orc racial should be a match for Dragonstrike however, but haste becomes insanely powerful when you're fully buffed and with end-game gear.

Lord Pendragon · 04/11/08, 5:49 AM

*question removed, further research yielded the answer, already in the spreadsheet.*

Nen · 04/11/08, 11:23 AM

Shha, would moving the 5 points from dw spec to 2/2 imp exe and 3/3 precision net more dps?

Has anyone tried onslaught belt + Soc trinket, then moving 2 points from WM to improved execute?

landsoul · 04/11/08, 11:48 AM

Suic, unfortunately with your data I can't really work on it. What I am finding is that you are getting 15% more MH procs of executioner than OH procs of mongoose, which doesnt make sense. You should be getting an equal number of both. Maybe you missed more in your offhand? Are you in tank or DPS gear? What are you hitting, blasted lands mobs? are you getting parried a lot and having your swings hasted?

Since you are getting ~15% more MH attacks than you should, throws off the numbers and I can't do any accurate calculations or numerical analysis, which is what I am after currently.

If you wuold like to do the test again, can you please get someone to tank the mob for you so that your attacks arent interrupted by parries, and cant use mongoose sadly, because it increases your attack speed by an indefinate amount.

Another issue is the notion that dual-wielders get more procs simply because they are hitting with two weapons, or is the mechanic modified for dual wielders to make it on par vs 2h and 1h/board?

My intent with this spreadsheet is to be accurate as possible and these unknowns are really making me sad for I dont have the time to test them.

Rezarel · 04/11/08, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by landsoul

Another issue is the notion that dual-wielders get more procs simply because they are hitting with two weapons, or is the mechanic modified for dual wielders to make it on par vs 2h and 1h/board?

The following is with 5/5 Flurry and parry hastes, but it shows dual-wielders do get full benefit from their additional swings. In other words, the off hand has the same chance to proc as you would expect if you were single wielding it.

Testing [Darkmoon Card: Heroism], tests run on 2.2 PTR

3.7 Speed 2-h:
6993 connects
782 procs
2.7 Speed dual wielded swords:
25554 connects (MH + OH combined)
2030 procs

PPM = Proc chance per swing * swings per minute ( = 60 / 2.7 for the DW - pretend it was just one weapon attacking for twice as long)
2H PPM = 1.81 +/- .06
DW PPM = 1.77 +/- .04
Note that this isn't an observed real PPM, it's a speed-independent measure of the proc chance per swing. I wish I had some better terminology here...

These are within statistical errors. If dual-wielding caused the proc chance to be reduced, you'd expect the DW PPM calculated here to be lower.

shed · 04/11/08, 1:09 PM

Originally Posted by Shha

ANy chance of adding sword spec to your sheet Landsoul? Right now im running 26/35 (mostly for Felmyst), and im experimenting with it. Its actually pretty fun spec to play because of some tricks. Not amazing for most fights, but different + on felmyst it works really well (~490k dmg on Felmyst alone, with ~4 min of dps, so close to 2k dps while having no synergies really (resto shaman in group, no feral, no expose weakness, no haste pots) and being tc/demo bitch. Of course counting the dps time not the whole fight (i think it was 9 min kill so overall dps of course is closer to 950 or so). Its a nice spec when you really cant dps 100% of the time. Over the 4 min of dps i could use DW 3 times , always with drums on, and 1 with recklessness execute/heroism.

Felmyst isn't a good benchmark to test new 'builds' becaue of the amount of rage you get (constantly full rage bar). In the first stage (with heroism up almost each) I was doing 2900 dps until 74% or something.

landsoul · 04/11/08, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by Rezarel

The following is with 5/5 Flurry and parry hastes, but it shows dual-wielders do get full benefit from their additional swings. In other words, the off hand has the same chance to proc as you would expect if you were single wielding it.

Testing [Darkmoon Card: Heroism], tests run on 2.2 PTR

3.7 Speed 2-h:
6993 connects
782 procs
2.7 Speed dual wielded swords:
25554 connects (MH + OH combined)
2030 procs

PPM = Proc chance per swing * swings per minute ( = 60 / 2.7 for the DW - pretend it was just one weapon attacking for twice as long)
2H PPM = 1.81 +/- .06
DW PPM = 1.77 +/- .04
Note that this isn't an observed real PPM, it's a speed-independent measure of the proc chance per swing. I wish I had some better terminology here...

These are within statistical errors. If dual-wielding caused the proc chance to be reduced, you'd expect the DW PPM calculated here to be lower.

Okay whaaaat? No idea how you are trying to make a conclusion from that data. Also, not knowing how many avoided hits you had also does not allow me to calculate anything accurately or confidently. For all we know avoidance could have every bit of part of deriving the formula from data as anything else. We don't know exactly how the game provides the proc chance, and thats what I am trying to do.

If you have data and want to post, please include...
-Duration of test
-Speed of weapon(s)
-#of Total swings
-#of connected hits
-#of procs
-Avg Duration of Proc
-2H or DW?

Please do not be specced into flurry and have 0 haste, and also dont be parrying anything. Fight something that doesnt fight back or get someone to tank. Use a trinket without a hidden CD.

Getting these tests finished will alow us to move into other controlled tests regarding skill based IAS and haste rating, so my sheet can be as accurate as possible! I feel currently the uptimes of 'PPM's on it are ideally a little too high.

Rezarel · 04/11/08, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by landsoul

Okay whaaaat? No idea how you are trying to make a conclusion from that data. Also, not knowing how many avoided hits you had also does not allow me to calculate anything accurately or confidently. For all we know avoidance could have every bit of part of deriving the formula from data as anything else. We don't know exactly how the game provides the proc chance, and thats what I am trying to do.

If you have data and want to post, please include...
-Duration of test
-Speed of weapon(s)
-#of Total swings
-#of connected hits
-#of procs
-Avg Duration of Proc
-2H or DW?

Please do not be specced into flurry and have 0 haste, and also dont be parrying anything. Fight something that doesnt fight back or get someone to tank. Use a trinket without a hidden CD.

Getting these tests finished will alow us to move into other controlled tests regarding skill based IAS and haste rating, so my sheet can be as accurate as possible! I feel currently the uptimes of 'PPM's on it are ideally a little too high.

The concept of PPM based enchants assumes that the game has a set PPM value for a proc, and converts that to a proc chance for any landed swing by multiplying by weapon speed / 60.

If dual wielding affects the proc chance, then using this assumption to derive the PPM value from dual wielding data would give an incorrect number. However, I got the same PPM value for dual wielding as I did for a slow two hander, and so we can conclude that dual wielding doesn't affect the proc chance.

And yes, there were other haste effects active, but they were present in both tests so they should mostly cancel out.

landsoul · 04/11/08, 7:54 PM

Originally Posted by Rezarel

The concept of PPM based enchants assumes that the game has a set PPM value for a proc, and converts that to a proc chance for any landed swing by multiplying by weapon speed / 60.

If dual wielding affects the proc chance, then using this assumption to derive the PPM value from dual wielding data would give an incorrect number. However, I got the same PPM value for dual wielding as I did for a slow two hander, and so we can conclude that dual wielding doesn't affect the proc chance.

And yes, there were other haste effects active, but they were present in both tests so they should mostly cancel out.

I understand this much, sir. We all understand this. But you are basing that the PPM of 2H and DW tests match, and you are not taking into account AT ALL the avoidance rate difference between the two. Are your avoidance ratios for both weapon setups the same?

obbw7291 · 04/12/08, 12:04 AM

sorry my bad for not reading the whole thread... saw the answer mod please delete this off

Machinator · 04/12/08, 3:56 AM

Originally Posted by landsoul

I understand this much, sir. We all understand this. But you are basing that the PPM of 2H and DW tests match, and you are not taking into account AT ALL the avoidance rate difference between the two. Are your avoidance ratios for both weapon setups the same?

Im not seeing why avoidance matters if the proc has no cooldown. All you need to know is number of hits, which was given. Number of swings doesn't enter into the equation at all. 200 swings with 50% hit is the same as 100 swings with 100% hit.

Murtah · 04/12/08, 4:02 AM

Pardon me if I put this in the wrong thread, but I was wanting to provide a situation to fury warriors and see about some advice.

I have a fury warrior in my guild who puts out insane amounts of DPS. I'm not entirely sure what number he puts out, but it's much higher than it should be, and I'm not sure how he's doing it. All I know is that he sometimes needs both a Blessing of Salvation and a Tranquil Air Totem to keep him from overaggroing. I know that our tank is very good, because all of our warlocks and mages can keep under the tank with no problem.

I'm not too fluent in the ways of the fury warrior, so I was wondering if this was common. I always heard that it was rogues that were the melee DPS damage machine. Should I just go with the flow, or should we talk to him about his DPS? I'm afraid that as he gets better gear, whatever it is that he's doing isn't going to be enough and he's going to constantly overaggro and cause us to wipe. Or, at least, to get himself killed.

Mode · 04/12/08, 4:39 AM

Originally Posted by Murtah

Pardon me if I put this in the wrong thread, but I was wanting to provide a situation to fury warriors and see about some advice.

I have a fury warrior in my guild who puts out insane amounts of DPS. I'm not entirely sure what number he puts out, but it's much higher than it should be, and I'm not sure how he's doing it. All I know is that he sometimes needs both a Blessing of Salvation and a Tranquil Air Totem to keep him from overaggroing. I know that our tank is very good, because all of our warlocks and mages can keep under the tank with no problem.

I'm not too fluent in the ways of the fury warrior, so I was wondering if this was common. I always heard that it was rogues that were the melee DPS damage machine. Should I just go with the flow, or should we talk to him about his DPS? I'm afraid that as he gets better gear, whatever it is that he's doing isn't going to be enough and he's going to constantly overaggro and cause us to wipe. Or, at least, to get himself killed.

Yes, it's not uncommon for fury warriors to find themselves horribly threat capped. Fury warriors have no aggro dump(unlike mages, warlocks, rogues, and hunters), so they are somewhat at the mercy of salv/tranquil air to reduce their aggro. An overgeared fury warrior might blackmail warlocks into soulstoning him so he can dump his aggro via death partway through the fight.

But we really can't help you at all unless you have a WWS for us to look at.

landsoul · 04/12/08, 6:02 AM

New version with important fix up.

Shha · 04/12/08, 6:16 AM

Originally Posted by shed

Felmyst isn't a good benchmark to test new 'builds' becaue of the amount of rage you get (constantly full rage bar). In the first stage (with heroism up almost each) I was doing 2900 dps until 74% or something.

I didnt really find him giving me more rage then other bosses like lets say Teron. The 1000 dmg aura isnt really boosting my rage that much. Either way, thats why I'd like it in spreadsheet. QQ, I dont even get heroism on Felmyst

.

suicuique · 04/12/08, 6:35 AM

Originally Posted by landsoul

Suic, unfortunately with your data I can't really work on it. What I am finding is that you are getting 15% more MH procs of executioner than OH procs of mongoose, which doesnt make sense. You should be getting an equal number of both. Maybe you missed more in your offhand? Are you in tank or DPS gear? What are you hitting, blasted lands mobs? are you getting parried a lot and having your swings hasted?

Since you are getting ~15% more MH attacks than you should, throws off the numbers and I can't do any accurate calculations or numerical analysis, which is what I am after currently.

If you wuold like to do the test again, can you please get someone to tank the mob for you so that your attacks arent interrupted by parries, and cant use mongoose sadly, because it increases your attack speed by an indefinate amount.

Another issue is the notion that dual-wielders get more procs simply because they are hitting with two weapons, or is the mechanic modified for dual wielders to make it on par vs 2h and 1h/board?

My intent with this spreadsheet is to be accurate as possible and these unknowns are really making me sad for I dont have the time to test them.

Why does MH proccing more not making sense?
Sure I was parrying. The Character Sheet parry rate was in both cases almost the same:
19.29% in the haste gear, 19.50% in the nonhaste gear.

And why should it be important what gear I was performing the tests in?
Surely it was not tank gear, as I am not aware how you can improve your passive haste rating by almost 14% by subbing in other tank gear. The only difference between the sets were that the nonhasted gear had about 3.5% crit and 400 Armor Penetration more. These stats are a non decisive factor in this test.

The dodge/parry/hit was the same in both tests +-0.2%

The test was not done to compare proc chance on MH and OH, but to see if there were significantly more procs in haste gear. IMHO it does make no difference if I am tanking the mob or not.

And equipping a mongoose enchanted weapon had two reason:
1) it is a widely used enchant
2) to have another data point (executioner, mongoose, heroism card)

If you think this test is too small to be conclusive. Fine. Valid argument. The sample size is not really large. But try to autoattack blasted lands mobs for a few hrs without a player interrupting and destroying the data. Nighttime could work though.

I'd say the pressure to show some numbers to back up statements has been on those for a while, who think that hasted autoattacks DO improve proc rate on PPM procs.

shed · 04/12/08, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Shha

I didnt really find him giving me more rage then other bosses like lets say Teron. The 1000 dmg aura isnt really boosting my rage that much. Either way, thats why I'd like it in spreadsheet. QQ, I dont even get heroism on Felmyst

.

Try having your MT in your mele group to ensure him having max threat (and heroism rotations) ;x'

I can't remember off the top of my head how fast that 1000 dmg aura ticks for (i think its every 1-3 seconds) but you also usually get a 3000 dmg dot tick at least once.

Also since you're not getting heroism, are you even getting an enhance shaman for felmyst (and do you usually get one for other bosses)?

Shha · 04/12/08, 12:32 PM

Our MT doesnt really have much threat problems , and shamans dont do that much for druid tanks. He actually still gets one (druid+shaman+3 hunter group) but we won't rotate heroisms. Nope, I'm not getting enhancement shaman for Felmyst, while I do for other bosses. Aura ticks once per 3 sec, and priest dispelling melee is (un)fortunately good enough that the 3k ticks don't really happen. All in all rage is never a huge issue anymore, and since Felmyst seems to have 7700 armor, the 1500 armor on him does more harm to my rage generation then some aura ticks can compensate.

Either way, like I said before - the fact that Felmyst isnt best benchmark fight, doesnt really impact the reasoning for sword spec being alvaiable for talents (deathwish is kind of pointless - you can add yourself another FI, for the 3% average impact, and I don't think spreadsheets are able to model properly stacking it with drums etc).

Drwal · 04/12/08, 7:54 PM

How do I swap gear to get reliable values of dps? There are pretty huge differences after swapping to some item then back to the previous, and it's pretty rarily the same. So confusing. I can get difference of +30/-30 dps on one and the same item, after swapping it back and forth with different ones for that slot. And I rly can't figure the reason, It's not the socket data issue, I keep an eye on it. It just looks completely unreliable to me. How do I compare items if I get two completely different results on item, depending from which one I swap to it.

Forgive me if there's some discussion about this issue in this topic already, just haven't found an answer yet (or too lazy to do it).

landsoul · 04/12/08, 8:20 PM

Its been in the directions since I released the sheet. A dozen or so other people have asked the same question, and i'm tired of reporting people for it. Believe me the sheet is 100% reliable.

Latest version is out, and its a big one.

issei · 04/13/08, 5:24 AM

Thus far, I've really enjoyed using the sheet. It's practical and, to me, user-friendly (barring the very minor snag of having to refresh, which is now reflex anyway). However, the graphical backgrounds in the latest version are incredibly visually jarring to me, making it difficult to look at the numbers for any length of time. Could they be toned down, or is there a way to manually remove/disable them (I downloaded OO specifically to use this sheet, and don't have any other experience with the program)?

landsoul · 04/13/08, 6:26 AM

Okay, I'm uploading a hotfix as we speak with the backgrounds phased out a little bit so you can actually look at things without your eyes having to wander. Sorry about that. Check it on the front page.