[Warrior] Fury DPS Spreadsheet for 2.4 - Page 2

Machinator · 03/17/08, 11:21 PM

Ok, I understand the rage/second thing now, though I am not sure I see the advantage of doing it that way as you lose other information. I had always done it out to see the average rage/hit first to use in other things like execute and HS. Also it could be a problem if you want to implement the weapon racials that will only apply to one hand.

Gruntle · 03/18/08, 6:24 AM

Originally Posted by landsoul

The only real thing rage per second over rotation contributes to is Heroic strike, which tightens up our hits per second and adds a little bit of DPS, all while increasing our proc and flurry uptimes. One thing I might want to figure out is if spamming hamstring to increase proc uptimes is better than using rage for heroic strikes, but probably not.

"a little bit of dps", hmm HS is responsible for nearly 15% of my damage (then again, I'm using a fast MH). Still I don't think you can denote the HS damage as small. I'm not there yet of course, but I though the rage gain at end-game was so high that you're able to chainspam HS almost indefinitely, it can't really be a small part of your damage in that case?

Feel free to test it, but I really don't think that priority on Hamstring as a rage dump will do better dps. HS has soo much higher damage per rage, in my opinion there is no way more procs and flurry uptime can make up for this. Also, you have to remember that Hamstring has added threat, the damage per threat for hamstring is way lower than HS.

landsoul · 03/18/08, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Gruntle

"a little bit of dps", hmm HS is responsible for nearly 15% of my damage (then again, I'm using a fast MH). Still I don't think you can denote the HS damage as small. I'm not there yet of course, but I though the rage gain at end-game was so high that you're able to chainspam HS almost indefinitely, it can't really be a small part of your damage in that case?

Feel free to test it, but I really don't think that priority on Hamstring as a rage dump will do better dps. HS has soo much higher damage per rage, in my opinion there is no way more procs and flurry uptime can make up for this. Also, you have to remember that Hamstring has added threat, the damage per threat for hamstring is way lower than HS.

No, no, I'm not saying use hammy instead of HS. In conjunction.

Remember though using heroic strike is an addition to your white damage. Thats how I run it in my sheet, yet I can still convert the % from overall make it look like recount, which is what I do also. In recount and SWstats, etc it shows HS damage as the whole white hit + the addition that HS grants.

Im sayin if you are saying if you are sitting on some hilarious rage generation for a moment it might be beneficial to conditionally hit both HS and Hammy for the slim chance that the hammy will proc a buff.

For example if you are sitting under void reaver earthquake with zerk rage might be able to hit hammy a few times while hitting HS also

On note of currently bugged (2.3 only) flurry

Originally Posted by Ugato

Wouldn't this sort of activity run counter to the practice of speed-sync'd weapons? pushing more toward the 2.6/2.7 setup for DW? The basic theory - with unsync'd weapons, you won't (necessarily) be forced to wait 2.6(7) seconds to regain flurry after this bug. Also, you still have the basic principle of slower OH to force more flurry charges to the MH. It's late, and I'm not that great at showing the math. Anyone care to compare this? I also realize it'd be kinda hard to represent these random occurances as solid numbers, as they're mostly a 'probability' factor. It's at least food for thought.

I would assume this can also be correct that no matter if you crit on the last hit of flurry or not, the server thinks that is the last hit anyways and will drop the buff, forcing you to wait 2.6 seconds (or whatever your synced speed) for a chance for flurry to come back again. If thats the case then that is terribad and I can't wait for the new patch to supposedly fix it. Our 70-80% flurry uptimes current will jump to 95-99% as they are supposed to.

landsoul · 03/18/08, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Shha

I can say that , i tested DST as throughly as blacksmithing hammer. Ive NEVER seen it proc less then 25 sec after it faded. On other hand the proc rate is pretty insane , and in raids it comes uplike 1-3 seconds after the cooldown is over.
Isnt it just a semantic discussion though? Just say that dragonspine has 35 sec cooldown and you can use it as it worked from the moment the buff is applied. Its exactly the same for all purposes.

Anyway . if you have a trinket that procs every single time within like 25-28 seconds from fading, it makes it obvious for me that would the cooldown be shorter, it would have procced earlier over hundreds of procs i tested. But no, not a single time I had a proc under 25 sec from fading.

Dragonspine should be pretty easy to model too, given the huge proc rate/hidden cooldown, its very very reliable and over longer fights it stays really close to the teorethical 10/25+10 = 28.6%. In fact it often surpasses it slightly early on (because the proc sort of "comes first", so unless you look at uptime meter just as hidden cooldown is over, the proc time will be more then average).

So.. you are saying that
A) The hidden CD is 25 seconds, not 20 form what other people say
B) You have to wait for the buff to fade for the hidden CD to start
C) uptime = 10/(10+25)

But what this will have to mean to me is
A) The hidden CD is 20 or 25 seconds
B) If you wait for the buff to fade to start the hidden CD, then I have to apply that rule to all other hidden CD trinkets, when people have been claiming that the hidden CD starts when the buff initiates
C) So I have to choose between uptime = 10/(10+20+[timetoproc]), 10/(20+[timetoproc]), 10/(10+25+[timetoproc]), 10/(25+[timetoproc]), 10/(10+25), blah blah

It's really hard when I dont have DST or some of this stuff just lying around, and I cant just pick a set of claims out of the pool of claims that people throw around. This is not something I can just generalize into blandular values. I'm here to get things right from the mechanics of the game, so people don't make incorrect decisions based off my sheet.

landsoul · 03/18/08, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Machinator

Ok, I understand the rage/second thing now, though I am not sure I see the advantage of doing it that way as you lose other information. I had always done it out to see the average rage/hit first to use in other things like execute and HS. Also it could be a problem if you want to implement the weapon racials that will only apply to one hand.

You are saying that the weapon racial only applies to that weapon? Meaning it does not add 5 expertise to the char sheet per mace, sword, or axe you wield?

Again, the basic breakdown of te rage per second formula is this

factor * dps + factor * white hits and wf per second

The advantage is less margin for error, easier to visualize the math, and easier to implement it across the entire sheet, especially when calculating SEP

Exactly what information is being lost?

Lopert · 03/18/08, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by landsoul

Penetration>Expertise>STR>Haste>AP>Crit>Hit

Maybe I am not understanding the mechanic but how is expertise rated so High? When expertise has no benefit over hit rating when you attack from behind, but gain nothing from a miss; so reducing misses is more valuable than reducing dodges, and both Hit Rating and Expertise rating decrease both at the same rating (16 hit rating = 1% hit, 16 expertise rating = -1% dodged/parried).

Or am I just missing something? So why rate Expertise so high over STR/Haste/AP/Crit?

Shha · 03/18/08, 2:10 PM

Because it affects yellow attacks.

Rezarel · 03/18/08, 3:20 PM

I ran about four hours of Dragonspine testing on the 2.4 PTR, and saw several procs occuring about 20 seconds apart (from start to start, not from fade to start). I don't have any screenshots, but here's an excerpt from the combat log file for the shortest start-to-start time:

3/2 14:44:33.359  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,154,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:33.593  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,84,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:34.234  SWING_MISSED,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,PARRY
3/2 14:44:34.593  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,156,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:35.312  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,79,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:35.406  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,34775,Haste,0x1,BUFF
3/2 14:44:36.078  SWING_MISSED,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,MISS
3/2 14:44:36.421  SWING_MISSED,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,PARRY
3/2 14:44:36.625  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,76,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:37.015  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,144,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:38.234  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,76,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:38.234  SWING_MISSED,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,DODGE
3/2 14:44:38.546  SWING_MISSED,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,MISS
3/2 14:44:39.125  SPELL_HEAL,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,23682,Heroism,0x2,147,nil
3/2 14:44:39.625  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,171,1,nil,nil,nil,1,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:40.046  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,144,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:40.250  SWING_MISSED,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,PARRY
3/2 14:44:40.953  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,161,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:41.125  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,86,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:42.578  SWING_MISSED,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,DODGE
3/2 14:44:42.578  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,304,1,nil,nil,nil,1,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:42.703  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,79,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:44.062  SWING_MISSED,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,MISS
3/2 14:44:44.140  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,83,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:44.359  SWING_DAMAGE,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,35,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:45.484  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,34775,Haste,0x1,BUFF
3/2 14:44:45.484  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,145,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:45.765  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,151,1,nil,nil,nil,1,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:46.203  SPELL_HEAL,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,23682,Heroism,0x2,165,nil
3/2 14:44:46.203  SWING_DAMAGE,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,41,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:47.281  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,161,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:47.609  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,74,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:48.296  SPELL_HEAL,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,23682,Heroism,0x2,121,nil
3/2 14:44:48.296  SWING_DAMAGE,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,42,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:49.390  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,153,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:49.390  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,80,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:50.281  SWING_DAMAGE,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,42,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:50.890  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,153,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:51.187  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,74,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:52.234  SWING_DAMAGE,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,43,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:52.828  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,145,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:52.953  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,81,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:54.437  SWING_DAMAGE,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,40,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:54.546  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,147,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:54.843  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,82,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:55.421  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,34775,Haste,0x1,BUFF
3/2 14:44:56.140  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,142,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:56.343  SWING_MISSED,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,DODGE
3/2 14:44:56.343  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,85,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:57.531  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,153,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:57.843  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,74,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:58.437  SWING_MISSED,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,DODGE
3/2 14:44:59.062  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,173,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:44:59.375  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,82,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:45:00.265  SWING_DAMAGE,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,39,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:45:00.546  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,156,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:45:00.859  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,151,1,nil,nil,nil,1,nil,nil
3/2 14:45:02.031  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,140,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:45:02.296  SWING_DAMAGE,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,43,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:45:02.296  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,71,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:45:03.531  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,150,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:45:03.890  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,79,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:45:04.484  SWING_MISSED,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,PARRY
3/2 14:45:04.578  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,0xF130001DF5000795,Servant of Grol,0x10a48,148,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
3/2 14:45:05.390  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0x000000000058242D,Rezarel,0x511,34775,Haste,0x1,BUFF

The buff comes up at 14:44:35.406, fades at 14:44:45.484, and comes back up again at 14:44:55.421, for a start-to-start time of 20.015 seconds.

If I counted all the eligible swings (ie, all white strikes greater than 20 seconds since the last proc) and all the procs that occured, I can calculate the proc chance for an individual eligible attack, and convert that to a PPM for the trinket. This gives something pretty close to 1 PPM. So, if you were autoattacking with a single weapon and never missed, you'd get on average 10 seconds of uptime for every 20 + 60 seconds.

Here's how I model uptime for a real life scenario:
The chance per second that the MH will proc is
MH_PPS = 1 PPM / 60 seconds * (1 - %miss - %dodge).
since the proc chance adjusts for hastes to maintain a constant PPM. Same thing for OH:
OH_PPS = 1 PPM / 60 seconds * (1 - %miss - %dodge).

Specials (Bloodthirst, WW, etc... maybe Windfury too, I haven't tested) use the MH base weapon speed to calculate proc chance (I'm ignoring offhand hits from whirlwind - I haven't done any testing on that either).
Special_Proc_Chance = 1 PPM * MH_Base_Weapon_Speed / 60 seconds
Special_PPS = Special_Proc_Chance * Specials_Per_Second * (1 - %miss - %dodge)

Then all three PPS values add to give the total chance that the trinket will proc in any given second:
PPS = MH_PPS + OH_PPS + Special_PPS

The average time to proc after the internal cooldown comes up is then 1 / PPS. So, our uptime can be calculated as
Uptime = 10 / (20 + 1 / PPS)
using 10 seconds up with a 20 second internal cooldown.

I guess there's a few points in there where I made some approximations -- using a proc per second instead of by swing, and just adding the three PPS values -- but the individual proc chances are small so I think that's a valid simplification.

landsoul · 03/18/08, 4:46 PM

Thankyou for this, Rezarel.

[ProcDuration] / ([HiddenCooldown]+[AvgTimeToProc])

Is how I have it setup currently (I think) in the current build, so that will not change.

So what you are saying about PPM is this:

MH%: [PPM] / 60 seconds * (1 - [%miss] - [%dodge])

When I see this formula I think okay, where in the game coding does it take 1 - dodge chance - miss chance and multiply it by listed PPM... Can it or will it do that? Lets say the PPM/60sec math cranked out a percent to proc of 1.66~%. For example, coding mechanics may work like this when a hit lands: it does a rand function and an if/then/else statement: IF(RAND(10000)<166); THEN(EFFECTSTART=YES); ELSE(EFFECTSTART=NO). Assuming a 1.66% chance on any attack to proc the effect.

The game takes that and applies it to each attack. Haste, flurry, and speed increase the rate of which you attack, which will also increase the rate in which the effects can proc. UNLESS, there is also a function in the code where it reduced that example 1.66% by a factor of the current weapon in question's attack speed increase.

So by your example, we will say that it would then be IF(RAND(10000)<(166 / [1+IncreaseInAttackSpeed]); THEN(EFFECTSTART=YES); ELSE(EFFECTSTART=NO)

And Rez, by that proposition it would apply to special attacks in the means where the percent was not reduced by attack speed. IF(RAND(10000)<166); THEN(EFFECTSTART=YES); ELSE(EFFECTSTART=NO).

so in conclusion, the real PPM would then be

MHWepSpd*([ppm]/60)*[MHWhiteHeroicPerSec] / ((1+.25[FlurryUp])*(1+[AvgSpeed])*(1+[AvgHaste]))
+
OHWepSpd*([ppm]/60)*[OHWhitePerSec] / ((1+.25[FlurryUp])*(1+[AvgSpeed])*(1+[AvgHaste]))
+
MHWepSpd*([ppm]/60)*[MHWFInstantPerSec] (assuming wf hits are not penalized by Inc.Speed)
+
OHWepSpd*([ppm]/60)*[OHWWPerSec] (assuming offhand ww actually counts as a hit as blizz wants in 2.4)

simplifying to the following: ([ppm]/60)*{ ((MHWepSpd*[MHWhiteHeroicPerSec] + OHWepSpd*[OHWhitePerSec]) / ((1+.25[FlurryUp])*(1+[AvgSpeed])*(1+[AvgHaste]))) + MHWepSpd*[MHWFInstantPerSec] + OHWepSpd*[OHWWPerSec] }

instead of how it would be modeled without Inc.Speed penalty:

([ppm]/60)*(MHWepSpd*[MHWhiteHeroicWFInstantPerSec] + OHWepSpd*[OHWhiteWWPerSec])

which is how it is modeled in the sheet now.

However, im not yet sold on the haste adjustment thing at the moment. Me and a rogue buddy of mine are gonna go do some testing soon.. to try to figure out what exactly it is.

Edit: A couple forumlatic errors I corrected

Machinator · 03/18/08, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by landsoul

You are saying that the weapon racial only applies to that weapon? Meaning it does not add 5 expertise to the char sheet per mace, sword, or axe you wield?

Yes that is right. Currently the character sheet doesnt show it, but they fixed this on the PTR and it will give you 2 expertise values, one for each hand. I believe DW weapon specs work this way as well. I have not seen anything on how it affects specials but I would assume MH expertise would count for that and it should be easy for someone with a racial to test.

For the rage calcs you lose average rage/hit, which you need for HS (which you had to calculate again) and execute modeling. It does save space for figuring out rage/sec, I just think you will need that other stuff later anyway. Maybe its just me liking to see all that information too.

Edit: Wicked Edge of the Plains now doesnt show proper dps/speed. I assume because of the name change because manually editing Planes makes it work again. Netherbane is also spelled wrong.

Orangedragonfng · 03/18/08, 7:28 PM

Currently I'm trying to use the spreadsheet, but in the collum that says "Overall DPS" I have an "Err 511" is there an easy fix, or am I just doing something wrong?

-Shargaas

landsoul · 03/18/08, 7:34 PM

Any errors in output area are unrecoverable. You probably will have to redown-load the sheet. You did something wrong. Try not to mess with anything except the red boxes as instructed in the intro.

If it bugs you, then make 2 copies of the sheet.

Also, new fix up x2 (sorry for the frequent updates but at least I do it).

I plan to add SEP for the procs onto items that have them on friday (yay for good friday off work woot) into one patch, so you can expect that.

sam0478 · 03/18/08, 7:56 PM

I noticed lots of errors using OpenOffice 2.0.x Upgrading to the latest version fixed all the problems. I still wonder why you have to "refresh" slots multiple times to get results.

Good work, by the way.

Orangedragonfng · 03/18/08, 8:08 PM

I'm still not able to work with anything. I re-downloaded, and openned it up. The second I openned it, I still have the error in the "Overall DPS" window.

landsoul · 03/18/08, 8:27 PM

Updated the findings post (post #2)

again, try redownloading 1.104 and tell me if you got problems.

Orangedragonfng · 03/18/08, 8:49 PM

Still the same deal, I'm not sure what's going on.

Orangedragonfng · 03/18/08, 9:37 PM

Ah! I fixed it finally!

I found several errors in this application though. The agility on [Drape of the Dark Reavers] is 24, and it is stated in the app that it is 17 or so.

Also, on [Rising Tide] the AP bonus on equip for +44 AP is not in-put into t he app.

And last but not least, your critical strike modifier is not correct, it is about .2% off from what it really is in-game according to Blizzard. Might want to check the modifier for agility and critical strike again, I can't tell which one it is. (Well, more or less I'm too lazy to crunch the numbers.)

These three things might fix my problems, but so far, everything else is fine. The only errors I've found are those, and the fact that the +44 AP is not added might solve why the app says my AP is so far different then what it really is in-game, as well as the critical strike modifier.

Also, does the app account for the +10% AP bonus on everything with Improved Berserker Stance? This might be a good idea to add in so that fury warrior can find their real DPS.

-Shargaas

Rezarel · 03/18/08, 9:38 PM

Originally Posted by landsoul

Thankyou for this, Rezarel.

[ProcDuration] / ([HiddenCooldown]+[AvgTimeToProc])

Is how I have it setup currently (I think) in the current build, so that will not change.

So what you are saying about PPM is this:

MH%: [PPM] / 60 seconds * (1 - [%miss] - [%dodge])

When I see this formula I think okay, where in the game coding does it take 1 - dodge chance - miss chance and multiply it by listed PPM... Can it or will it do that? Lets say the PPM/60sec math cranked out a percent to proc of 1.66~%. For example, coding mechanics may work like this when a hit lands: it does a rand function and an if/then/else statement: IF(RAND(10000)<166); THEN(EFFECTSTART=YES); ELSE(EFFECTSTART=NO). Assuming a 1.66% chance on any attack to proc the effect.

The game takes that and applies it to each attack. Haste, flurry, and speed increase the rate of which you attack, which will also increase the rate in which the effects can proc. UNLESS, there is also a function in the code where it reduced that example 1.66% by a factor of the current weapon in question's attack speed increase.

So by your example, we will say that it would then be IF(RAND(10000)<(166 / [1+IncreasInAttackSpeed]); THEN(EFFECTSTART=YES); ELSE(EFFECTSTART=NO)

And Rez, by that proposition it would apply to special attacks in the means where the percent was not reduced by attack speed. IF(RAND(10000)<166); THEN(EFFECTSTART=YES); ELSE(EFFECTSTART=NO).

Yes, that looks right. Basically, every swing the server determines the proc chance by
Proc chance / swing = (Avg Proc / minute) * (seconds / swing) * (1 minute / 60 seconds)
= PPM * Weapon Speed / 60
This uses the current hasted weapon speed. One example from my testing: using a 2.7 speed weapon and [Mark of Conquest] (2 PPM), while not flurried I had a proc chance of 8.8%, and while flurried I had a proc chance of 7.4%.

The consequence of this is that regardless of your base weapon speed and how much haste you have, you'll get the same average procs per minute.

Also, this assumes that you land (60 / Weapon Speed) attacks per minute. If some miss, your observed procs per unit time will be reduced by (1 - %miss - %dodge).

so in conclusion, the real PPM would then be

([ppm]/60)*[MHWhiteHeroicPerSec] / ((1+.25[FlurryUp])*(1+[AvgSpeed])*(1+[AvgHaste]))
+
([ppm]/60)*[OHWhitePerSec] / ((1+.25[FlurryUp])*(1+[AvgSpeed])*(1+[AvgHaste]))
+
([ppm]/60)*[MHWFInstantPerSec] (assuming wf hits are not penalized by Inc.Speed)
+
([ppm]/60)*[OHWWPerSec] (assuming offhand ww actually counts as a hit as blizz wants in 2.4)

simplifying to the following: ([ppm]/60)*{ (([MHWhiteHeroicPerSec] + [OHWhitePerSec]) / ((1+.25[FlurryUp])*(1+[AvgSpeed])*(1+[AvgHaste]))) + [MHWFInstantPerSec] + [OHWWPerSec] }

instead of how it would be modeled without Inc.Speed penalty:

([ppm]/60)*([MHWhiteHeroicWFInstantPerSec] + [OHWhiteWWPerSec])

I don't quite follow this. The proc chance per swing adjusts with haste to maintain a constant Real PPM regardless of the increased number of swings, so
Real MH PPM = PPM * (1 - %miss - %dodge)
You don't need to bring the actual number of attacks into it at all.

The special attack terms need the base weapon speed involved somehow:
Real Special PPM = Specials per minute * Proc chance per special
Proc chance per special = PPM * MH Base Speed / 60
So a character with a 1.5 speed main hand and 20 specials per minute will see fewer procs from specials than a character with a 2.6 speed main hand and 20 specials per minute.

However, im not yet sold on the haste adjustment thing at the moment. Me and a rogue buddy of mine are gonna go do some testing soon.. to try to figure out what exactly it is.

Looking over the old post, the data's not as convincing as it could be. It's also five months old, and mechanics change, so more testing is good.

ildon · 03/18/08, 9:41 PM

[Abacus of Violent Odds] is currently doing nothing, not even the static AP bonus. Didn't see this mentioned anywhere.

Also [Warbringer Battle-Helm] is short 2 hit rating.

sam0478 · 03/18/08, 10:15 PM

What exactly does the Full Improved option mean in regards to Battle Shout, and if it is enabled, does it collide with the option to put 5 points in Commanding Presence? I guess what I'm asking is if it adds in twice if you enable both of them, and if that is intended or not.