Fury DPS Spreadsheet for 3.0 - Page 28

Gruntle · 09/24/08, 6:38 AM

Well, the dps of the classes being affected by this is going up by quite a bit due to having access to the highest talent tiers. Even with a 10% loss in dps due to the ArP change, the dps for warriors will still go up (but not by a lot). So no real need to retune bosses. The problem with the change is not that boss fights will be harder but rather that gear will suddenly become a lot worse overnight. If I would have known about this change a couple of months back I would have done very different choices in what gear to bid on. I'm not saying that warriors are alone in this, other classes have been hit really hard with itemization changes too (read, druids).

edit: I don't really understand why they don't do it the other way around, i.e. applying the armor reduction from ArP rating before flat modifiers. If this becomes too powerful, just change the rating conversion. That makes a lot more sense to me, making heavily armed mobs the ones where ArP really shines. The situation in live is the complete opposite and quite illogical.

Shha · 09/24/08, 8:13 AM

I dont see Fury dps going up at all. Care to elaborate Gruntle?
We lose loads of AP - Rampage/Blessing of Might/Expose weakness/Hunters mark to just name a few (most people wouldnt have stuff like trueshot aura etc anyway). Thats in realm of losing 1300 AP counting Imp zerker/unleashed rage. Thats on typical swing for me around 15% damage.
With typical ~1000 ArP we around 10% damage through armor pen. We lose 2% BF damage.

So we lose ~30% damage overall and in return we get... new WF (a bit better), 3% haste and new talents. I agree it can balance out for arms which got a lot of buffs... but for fury? All Fury really got is TG (less then 30% damage buff by far - from 0% for BT. through maybe 10% for whites, dps LOSS on heroics, and a big buff on WW), and instant slams - not that important.

Our dps went upon dummies/blasted lands mobs - true. But the extreme hit melee got in realm of raid buffs is costing us way more.

Gruntle · 09/24/08, 8:41 AM

I did some more careful inputs to my new and old sheet, it seems you're right Shha. With readily available buffs (i.e. no Trueshot aura) I get a 2-3% loss in dps when going from 17/44 with TBC mechanics to 2/51/8 with 3.x mechanics. I still have some more things to implement in the sheet though.

I don't agree on Bloodsurge slams being unimportant though. I could have made errors in the sheet, but by adding a Bloodsurge slam every 6/crit% second I get close to a 5% dps increase. And DPS loss on heroics? Maybe true for fully sunwell geared people who can already do HS on every single swing, but the superior rage generation with TG makes the HS frequency a lot higher in my gear. And Incite really makes a big difference. It's the raid buffs not stacking and the ArP change that is really causing the problems, not really TG by itself.

Shha · 09/24/08, 9:24 AM

Hows your rage generation superior if you lose white damage? TG with 3.0 buffs is LESS white damage then 2.0 2x1h. By far less, and still more spiky.

Gruntle · 09/24/08, 9:56 AM

I only looked at the total HS damage and assumed it was due to more frequent use. But no, that's not the case. Each HS hits a lot harder in a 2/51/8 build with TG. The +15% crit more than makes up for the extra miss chance on HS. It should also be noted that all of these result were obtained in my my low hit (11% with Precision) and high ArP gear. People with gear focused on hit/crit/str will do a lot better. Rage generation is indeed not better, white dps goes down a bit with the 3.0 build.

Also, from what I've seen so far it seems hit rating is on the order of 10% more valuable than strength point per point (of course only valid at lvl 70 though), but maybe this is due to me having low hit. I should perhaps wait a bit before posting more results from my testing, there are some things missing that could have a big impact (Deep wounds, recklessness modeling, some tweaks to the cycle and perhaps two-roll system for specials).

• landsoul · 09/24/08, 1:06 PM

I wouldnlt make any calculations until blizzard decides what they want to do with TG. They seem undecided atm. It's the reason I am waiting, personally.

Jojoba · 09/24/08, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by Gruntle

Well, the dps of the classes being affected by this is going up by quite a bit due to having access to the highest talent tiers. Even with a 10% loss in dps due to the ArP change, the dps for warriors will still go up (but not by a lot). So no real need to retune bosses. The problem with the change is not that boss fights will be harder but rather that gear will suddenly become a lot worse overnight. If I would have known about this change a couple of months back I would have done very different choices in what gear to bid on. I'm not saying that warriors are alone in this, other classes have been hit really hard with itemization changes too (read, druids).

edit: I don't really understand why they don't do it the other way around, i.e. applying the armor reduction from ArP rating before flat modifiers. If this becomes too powerful, just change the rating conversion. That makes a lot more sense to me, making heavily armed mobs the ones where ArP really shines. The situation in live is the complete opposite and quite illogical.

Looks like they read my mind. It appears in the next build, heroics and 25 mans are being retuned. Whatever that means.

Gruntle · 09/24/08, 3:26 PM

That's a new beta build, surely they are talking about tuning of WoTLK content? Even if it's about TBC content, it may just as well mean that they are going to make it harder to balance the buffs most classes will get.

Machinator · 09/24/08, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Gruntle

Also, from what I've seen so far it seems hit rating is on the order of 10% more valuable than strength point per point (of course only valid at lvl 70 though), but maybe this is due to me having low hit.

This is from my napkin math but I keep showing crit > hit even when not hit capped with TG. I think its because a missed special uses no rage and I'm not sure if people account for that.

Calgar · 09/25/08, 5:05 PM

Im eager to get my hands on a 3.0 spreadsheet. The ArP changes and Titan's Grip are going to make stat weightings lean much more towards hit then ArP as a secondary next to STR/Crit/Haste.

Also, Solarian's Sapphire goes out the window in terms of raid viability.

Madness of the betrayer is going to be...interesting. Half of it being more useful, and the other half less useful. Interested to see where this stacks up with TG.

One change i plan to make is tossing Divine Ret leggings for my old, up till 3.0, banked Leggings of Endless Rage. My ring off of Kael (Ranger General) might stack up better for DPS now then the illidan ring as well if ArP is a bad as some people seem to suggest it is.

Gruntle · 09/25/08, 5:26 PM

Actually, my half-finished sheet is showing some surprising results.

While the ArP nerf certainly hurts our dps, it is still a very good stat, comparable to hit in value. I wouldn't go throwing the ArP gear away just yet. Maybe there is something wrong with my modeling, but the thing is that since the armor reduction changes affect the value of all other stats (armor is applied after the total damage has been determined), the ranking between ArP and the others stay roughly constant.

From what I can find I get the following ranking (at lvl 70 with a TG+incite build).
hit ~ expertise ~ ArP > haste > str > crit > agi
(and I have accounted for rage discount of missed specials Machinator)
But as I said the sheet is only half-finished and may contain some critical errors.

Why would Solarian go out the window? Or do you mean lvl 80 raiding? Not really surprising that it would become obsolete for that content in my opinion.

Calgar · 09/25/08, 5:32 PM

Solarians doesn't add to the group's battle shout bonus as of 3.0. Just 110 AP to you when you have battleshout up. So this should drop it below DST/MoTB/Sliver in terms of raid DPS.

Machinator · 09/25/08, 9:06 PM

I am surprised your ArP came out so high, though its probably because everyone counts different debuffs. Haste > Str is kinda odd too. I will try to upload my sheet tonight since I know saying crit > hit is a bit out there. Im curious in other people's as well for comparison.

Graul · 09/29/08, 9:26 PM

Originally Posted by Gruntle

I only looked at the total HS damage and assumed it was due to more frequent use. But no, that's not the case. Each HS hits a lot harder in a 2/51/8 build with TG. The +15% crit more than makes up for the extra miss chance on HS. It should also be noted that all of these result were obtained in my my low hit (11% with Precision) and high ArP gear. People with gear focused on hit/crit/str will do a lot better. Rage generation is indeed not better, white dps goes down a bit with the 3.0 build.

Also, from what I've seen so far it seems hit rating is on the order of 10% more valuable than strength point per point (of course only valid at lvl 70 though), but maybe this is due to me having low hit. I should perhaps wait a bit before posting more results from my testing, there are some things missing that could have a big impact (Deep wounds, recklessness modeling, some tweaks to the cycle and perhaps two-roll system for specials).

I did some more careful inputs to my new and old sheet, it seems you're right Shha. With readily available buffs (i.e. no Trueshot aura) I get a 2-3% loss in dps when going from 17/44 with TBC mechanics to 2/51/8 with 3.x mechanics. I still have some more things to implement in the sheet though.

I don't agree on Bloodsurge slams being unimportant though. I could have made errors in the sheet, but by adding a Bloodsurge slam every 6/crit% second I get close to a 5% dps increase. And DPS loss on heroics? Maybe true for fully sunwell geared people who can already do HS on every single swing, but the superior rage generation with TG makes the HS frequency a lot higher in my gear. And Incite really makes a big difference. It's the raid buffs not stacking and the ArP change that is really causing the problems, not really TG by itself.

I don't remember my exact stats (didn't really think I would need the info), but it was approximately 47% (52%) crit, 18.40% hit, 15% haste, 16% ArP and around 3400 AP (with UR up). With Rampage active and the 3% additional crit from the Paladin, my Heroic Strikes had a 70% chance to crit and my Bloodthirsts 55%. Bloodsurge was up a lot more than expected, but even so...the overall contribution seems extremely low. Deep Wounds would be doing more than this at level 80, but maybe having double the attack power would favor it slightly more, but overall it's just very underwhelming.

I tend to agree with Shha though about if not actually dropping in DPS that we won't really be gaining much if anything at all due to the tremendous amount of buffs we are losing in comparison. We lost a lot of attack power. Also by comparison other classes should be getting a larger increase in damage simply because of the WF and raid wide changes. Here's to hoping that both Arms and Fury (but moreso Fury from a raiding standpoint) get the much needed changes to the trees before a few months into level 80.

Gruntle · 09/30/08, 4:59 AM

But come on, a 5% increase in damage is not bad for 3 talent points (because you would definitely not get out the same amount of damage from using the tiny amount of rage needed for Bloodsurge slams on HS). What did you expect, that an instant slam every 12-18th sec would give you a 40% damage boost? I think the talent is fine. Deep wounds is extremely good if you assume that all of the damage is applied, coming close to a 15% dps increase in my sheet. I really suspect this is not the case though.

Well, we might be dropping in dps when fully buffed, but that's not really a problem with the warrior talent tree in my opinion. All melee dps will be affected by buffs not stacking as they used to and the changes to armor reduction.

Jojoba · 09/30/08, 6:40 AM

One thing that should be considered is the upcoming change to unending fury which increases damage done by 2-10% for slam, whirlwind and bloodthirst. The number of possible multiplicative effects on damage to those 3 specials (the ones that i can think of atm at least - and i'm not sure which ones don't stack so feel free to correct me)

Blood frenzy 2%
Sanctified Retribution 2%
2H spec 6%
Ferocious inpiration 3%
Unending fury 10%

That's about 25% extra damage to our main specials? That seems pretty hot to me actually.

And on top of that Impale +20% crit damage

• Gink · 09/30/08, 9:53 PM

Relentless Earthstorm Diamond as well for another 3% crit damage. :P

I'm just curious if anyone has heard if this meta is taking a nerf in WotLK? It's not like it's the 12 agi that makes it our prime choice, so if it stays unchanged, it could be pretty good in WotLK as well?
I don't think I've seen any new meta-gems yet, so it's of course impossible to say if it would be a viable lvl 80 meta, I'm just throwing it out there.

teiglin · 09/30/08, 10:07 PM

Edit: I'm an idiot.

There's a pure crit version available in expansion which is better. Here's a what wowhead has for the new metas.

• landsoul · 10/07/08, 5:52 AM

top end 70 and 80 Gear list finished
Gear selection matrix finished
Stat/enchant/gem matrix finished
Working on Talent and Buff selection matrix right now.

I'm working really hard and I hope to have it all done right when 3.0 rolls out on live. Thanks for your patience!

Bigbazz · 10/07/08, 7:55 AM

Something that really interested me was the ammount of damage deep wounds is doing now, ive tested arms specs a lot on the PTR, self buffed im getting results where deep wounds was making the second highest damage contribution, fighting with the second spot over mortal strike, ive seen deep wound ticks as high as 1300 at times and it really seems to be doing a huge ammount of damage.

I know deep wounds isnt available to titan grip warriors at level 70, but im definately getting the feeling that incite builds are going to be thrown out the window the moment a fury warrior has impale/deep wounds available. Now i could be wrong and maybe the PTR build is bugged, im so used to deep wounds doing such little damage, it really took me back looking at it being one of the highest damage dealing abilities over a fight.

How hard is it to model the dps value of deep wounds in a spreadsheet exactly, because if it stays as it is its really going to be a huge player in the overall dps.

• landsoul · 10/07/08, 8:12 AM

It used to be hard, but I did figure it out.

Now its so cake to calculate it isn't really a problem.

Gruntle · 10/07/08, 8:46 AM

Yeah, it's dead easy now since you essentially lose no damage at all, you only need weapon damage, AP and crit rate to calculate it. It is overpowered right now in my opinion, for a lvl 70 arms build I get >20% damage increase from Deep wound alone.

Incite is good but cannot compare at all to Impale/Deep wounds currently. Also, at level 80 you will have access to Twohanded weapon spec. in arms, making at least 18 points in arms pretty much mandatory for TG builds.

• landsoul · 10/12/08, 9:09 AM

Should have a working, usable, and USEFUL beta release ready right before the patch. As of right now, most things are working to where you could arrive at some decision making for gearing TG or classic fury style. I can't get a hold of the crazy Arms RNG stuff yet.

dr_AllCOM3 · 10/12/08, 1:47 PM

Originally Posted by landsoul

Should have a working, usable, and USEFUL beta release ready right before the patch. As of right now, most things are working to where you could arrive at some decision making for gearing TG or classic fury style. I can't get a hold of the crazy Arms RNG stuff yet.

Arms is next to impossible to model, especially the Slam and Sudden Death part.

How do you do DW, if I may ask?

• landsoul · 10/12/08, 6:12 PM

Deep Wounds:

The way I do it is easy, because I can determine the amount of critical attacks I can land in a given second, which streams nicely into a DPS value because each crit also adds a definite amount of bleed damage.

Spreadsheet: (CritsPerSecondcancauseDeepWounds)*(.16*TalentAmount*AverageMHDamageRange)
Simulator: Did it crit? -> do (.16*TalentAmount*CurrentMHDamageRange) damage

**Note offhand whirlwind crits do not cause deep wounds, cause if it did it would be overpowered.