[Warrior] Fury DPS Spreadsheet for 2.4 - Page 3

landsoul · 03/19/08, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Gruntle

You have to recalculate the values in the sheet a couple of times after changing items (press F9 normally). This is because the sheet uses circular references, I don't think there is any way to get around this.

yeah for now just re-enter your item 2-3-4 times until it does not change. Also hitting ctrlshiftY in the same box is a shortcut for re-entering that info.

I tried to see what was the underlying cause of this issue last night by unequipping all of the items and monitoring changes by adding one item at a time. A few times it would take up to two times to populate the item stats and a third time to assert the correct dps values. Other times it would enter the stats on the first time, and then the second time it would correct the numbers.

landsoul · 03/19/08, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Acy

thank you for the Spreadsheet

could u also add the [Bladed Chaos Tunic] and [Duplicitous Guise] into the items drop down menu plz? i know those 2 are leathers, but they are also very good for dw fury wars, maybe better than the same ilvl dps plates.

FYI, I will not put leather items in the menus if there is are plate items that are far far better that drop in the same instance iLvL. However, I will if it can be proven such that they are competitive for a particular iLvL. An example follows:

Lets see if [Bladed Chaos Tunic] Is better than [Warharness of Reckless Fury] or [Hard Khorium Battleplate] from smithing?

Lets see if [Duplicitous Guise] is better than [Crown of Anasterian] (which supposedly drops off the same boss or [Mayhem Projection Goggles] from engineering?

Lets pull the SEP from the max BT gear and mild raid setup (Located and updated in post 2).

2AP .909
Haste .851
Crit: .863
7Arp: 1.030
Exp: 1.276
Hit: .625
Agi: .633

Without gems:
[Bladed Chaos Tunic] = 143.79 SEP
[Warharness of Reckless Fury] = 124.06
(crafted) [Hard Khorium Battleplate] = 137.58

With max DPS gems:
[Bladed Chaos Tunic] 10str x3 = 173.79
[Warharness of Reckless Fury] 5str5crit x2 10str = 156.69
(crafted) [Hard Khorium Battleplate] 10str x3 = 171.03

Without gems:
[Duplicitous Guise] = 132.17
[Crown of Anasterian] = 129.51
(crafted) [Mayhem Projection Goggles] = 122.26

With gems (3% crit in RED is not counted)
[Duplicitous Guise] 10 str = 152.63
[Crown of Anasterian] 10str = 150.53
(crafted) [Mayhem Projection Goggles] 10str = 139.86

It looks like the leather wins and will get added to the sheet, they are very competitive for a particular item level.

• Tauftamir · 03/19/08, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by landsoul

Could you tell me why [Bladed Chaos Tunic] Is better than [Warharness of Reckless Fury] or [Hard Khorium Battleplate] from smithing?

Could you tell me why [Duplicitous Guise] is better than [Crown of Anasterian] (which supposedly drops off the same boss or [Mayhem Projection Goggles] from engineering?

Perhaps he isn't a Blacksmith and the RNG doesn't drop him a Crown or Warharness?

I don't want this to come across as trolling, but if you want people to use and give useful feedback on your spreadsheet then you aren't going to gain support by telling people they shouldn't touch leather items and refusing to action a reasonable request.

I would strongly advise you let people have a facility to add items themselves if you don't want to be burdened with a request like this.

landsoul · 03/19/08, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Tauftamir

Perhaps he isn't a Blacksmith and the RNG doesn't drop him a Crown or Warharness?

I don't want this to come across as trolling, but if you want people to use and give useful feedback on your spreadsheet then you aren't going to gain support by telling people they shouldn't touch leather items and refusing to action a reasonable request.

I would strongly advise you let people have a facility to add items themselves if you don't want to be burdened with a request like this.

why dont you give me a few minutes to work on the post before you reply, maybe I am not done and I am just posting it to save the info and come back while I am at work. They do have ability to add own items (if they can understand the setup), manually add stats, etc.

Moogul · 03/19/08, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by landsoul

FYI, I will not put leather items in the menus if there is are plate items that are better that drop in the same instance iLvL.

Regardless of whether they actually are better or not, this seems very counterintuitive - the entire purpose of such a spreadsheet (as I see it) is to determine which items are better or not.

Sure, I could work out which are the best-in-slot items, and put them in a spreadsheet and say 'hey guys, look at this sheet that shows you what gear to use', but then all it's doing is showing a list, and I don't need a spreadsheet for that.

Even if the leather *is* worse, you should put it in the spreadsheet so people can see clearly for themselves, and see why, and maybe play around with other gear/sockets/enchants to see how it affects it.

Machinator · 03/19/08, 2:21 PM

Originally Posted by landsoul

FYI, I will not put leather items in the menus if there is are plate items that are better that drop in the same instance iLvL. However, I will if it can be proven such that they are best in slot for a particular iLvL. An example follows:

I have to agree that doing this defeats the whole purpose of the spreadsheet. If we know what items are better ahead of time we wouldnt need the sheet. All items that are reasonable for a warrior to have access to should be in the sheet. What is best in slot to one person is not to another so that is not a valid reason to not include any item.

landsoul · 03/19/08, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Machinator

I have to agree that doing this defeats the whole purpose of the spreadsheet. If we know what items are better ahead of time we wouldnt need the sheet. All items that are reasonable for a warrior to have access to should be in the sheet. What is best in slot to one person is not to another so that is not a valid reason to not include any item.

I have to agree with all here. I was wrong and I apologize. Thats why we have the discussion. There are certain leather items that are not reasonable, however, we have all seen those and those are the ones that I will NOT include in the sheet... Also, SEP values always change when you substitute gear, so one item at one point might not be better than one item at another point (might be an interesting theory to play with). Which is why we use the sheet, but DEFINATELY if anyone can say "hey this leather item will be reasonable for a fury warrior" using the method that I have displayed then it will be added within the day.

The reason we use spreadsheets is to be able to make careful decisions on gear setup, say if you were using a DKP system or some kind of system where you would be penalized for making an incorrect decision. We have all made bad decisions here and there, heck I had even done it months ago when I baught [Onslaught Gauntlets] to upgrade [Destroyer Gauntlets] instead of [Grips of Silent Justice] allowing another DPS warrior to take [Dreadboots of the Legion] over me, which happens to be the best upgrade I could get...

We dont use spreadsheets to know the obvious, like omg is [Dreadboots of the Legion] better than [Warboots of Obliteration]? But we do use it to know the no-so obvious like, are [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] better than [Warboots of Obliteration] with the correct gems?? By how much? Is double mongoose better than executioner and mongoose when I have 1350 ArP fighting a boss with 6600 armor and a set number of raid buffs? By how much? Do I want to wear a leather chest and lose 1300 armor to gain X theoretical DPS only when I am in a raid?

Banger · 03/19/08, 3:20 PM

Swiftsteel Bludgeon currently is not showing 40 attack power.

landsoul · 03/19/08, 3:24 PM

Originally Posted by Banger

Swiftsteel Bludgeon currently is not showing 40 attack power.

I can fix that, thanks!

• LodeRunner · 03/19/08, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by landsoul

*leather vs plate item comparison*
It looks like the leather wins and will get added to the sheet, they are very competitive for a particular item level.

That's just depressing on a very basic level, you know? The gear that is catered to the Warrior should function better for the Warrior than the gear designed for the Rogue. Look how laden it is with stats comparatively. What we consider "well itemized" Warrior gear gets:
-Strength
-Crit Rating
-Sockets
-Armor Ignore or Haste
[Hard Khorium Battleplate]

Rogue gear gets:
-Agility (for them that's AP and Crit)
-Hit or Crit
-Sockets
-Attack Power
-Armor Ignore or Haste
[Bladed Chaos Tunic]

There's this whole double dipping effect with giving AP, Agility, and Crit on the same item. It's like the Warrior stuff is just short a modifier comparatively.

WernerVonBraun · 03/19/08, 5:18 PM

I tested a bit with a [Rod of the Sun King].
No flurry or haste it shows ~0.9ppm (I guess that means 1ppm then).
With flurry 3/5 and 30 haste I get ~1.1ppm.

Growler · 03/19/08, 5:20 PM

sorry to ask stupid questions,

I downloaded openoffice (mac OSX intel 2.3.1) install it etc.

I have the spreadsheet file, but for the life of me i cant get a spreadsheet to open from that furydps folder. Can anyone shed some light to a openoffice nub please. I have tries opening all the .xml files in OO but i just get pages and pages of code etc, not a actual usable spread.

TIA

Katrael · 03/19/08, 5:27 PM

Originally Posted by LodeRunner

There's this whole double dipping effect with giving AP, Agility, and Crit on the same item. It's like the Warrior stuff is just short a modifier comparatively.

It's not so much that rogues get to double dip, as warrior items simply have fewer stats on them overall. Look at the examples Landsoul posted above between "best" plate and leather for helm and chest. The leather options have itemization spread between four stats, while the plate stuff only has three. All the items have the same number of sockets, and the leather chest even has an "inferior" blue socket. If you were to add ArPen onto the mayhem goggles at the cost of some str and hit, all of a sudden they would probably easily claim best in slot, same if any of the plate pieces traded down a bit on some stats to gain a fourth.

All in all I'm very happy with the stats they put on the warrior sunwell gear, and the ratio between those stats, but due to the way that blizzard's itemization works "our" gear will always lose out to leather so long as the rogue stuff is getting more diverse point expenditure on single pieces, especially with so much of sunwell leather including high amounts of AP, ArPen, and crit, our bread and butter stats.

• LodeRunner · 03/19/08, 5:42 PM

Originally Posted by Katrael

All in all I'm very happy with the stats they put on the warrior sunwell gear, and the ratio between those stats, but due to the way that blizzard's itemization works "our" gear will always lose out to leather so long as the rogue stuff is getting more diverse point expenditure on single pieces, especially with so much of sunwell leather including high amounts of AP, ArPen, and crit, our bread and butter stats.

You're happy that the plate gear when used by Warriors (designed for Warriors) is inferior to the leather gear used by Warriors (designed for Rogues)? Pardon my French but what the fuck? How can you fail to see this as anything but a major flaw? It would be just as easy to scoop a little more of the "lesser" stats on in addition like +hit. There is something fundamentally WRONG with the plate DPS gear if the Warriors turn to leather for the best possible damage.
I'm not calling for nerfs to the leather gear. I'm calling for buffs on the plate gear to make it something Warriors actually want.

Machinator · 03/19/08, 6:48 PM

Originally Posted by LodeRunner

I'm not calling for nerfs to the leather gear. I'm calling for buffs on the plate gear to make it something Warriors actually want.

One cause of this may be the recent ret changes, the ret paladins I know really like the new badge gear with haste, while warriors do not. So rather than make 2 plate sets, they made middle of the road sets which push leather to best in slot. I hope that this doesnt become a long term trend, paladins and warriors are still too different to claim one piece is best for both.

landsoul · 03/19/08, 8:24 PM

Originally Posted by Machinator

One cause of this may be the recent ret changes, the ret paladins I know really like the new badge gear with haste, while warriors do not. So rather than make 2 plate sets, they made middle of the road sets which push leather to best in slot. I hope that this doesnt become a long term trend, paladins and warriors are still too different to claim one piece is best for both.

That, and also look at the stamina difference really.... For example if there is a 10 stamina difference between [Crown of Anasterian] and [Duplicitous Guise] that means that 6 or 7 budget points could have been spend on something like strength, which would have, for warriors, put that item over the leather piece no contest. I think thats also another problem, in addition to machinator's claim, and also the claim before it why leather items (even with agility) can possibly surpass a plate one in terms of Raw Damage.

I personally hate that leather is better thing also, what the fuck. So that means if I want to spend my points on leather instead of plate, I cant (when im not in a raid) go out and be a near zero downtime farming machine like I am used to because my armor mitigation would be 35% instead of 50%.. I would have to stop to med up 30% more because I wanted to do more raid DPS...

landsoul · 03/19/08, 8:31 PM

Originally Posted by WernerVonBraun

I tested a bit with a [Rod of the Sun King].
No flurry or haste it shows ~0.9ppm (I guess that means 1ppm then).
With flurry 3/5 and 30 haste I get ~1.1ppm.

Lets see some backup sir? that seems aweful aweful low for only 5 rage gain.

Oh, new version up....

Graul · 03/19/08, 10:22 PM

Since we now seem to have four threads that somewhat blur together, and I can't find which of the four threads I originally brought this up in (I looked briefly, but not wading through pages for something so trivial) I'll post it here. I was talking about doing a 33/28 (or any 2h build really) without a single Slam. Here is the last half of BT. Last night would have been a much better overview, but unfortunately we forgot to turn the combat log back on after the raid was frozen/disconnected on the post Najentus bug.

Wow Web Stats

This is a short raid, but my personal overall numbers are nearly the same as they were when I was Slamming, and in a few cases better. That can also be due to everyone else getting upgrades and overall raid DPS going up as well though. I presume in the actual correct setup for a 2h build (mine is nowhere near optimal for a 2h spec) I would be doing ~200 - 250 DPS more on average.

Edit - Not sure if the title of this thread was changed, or I'm just blind (probably the latter), but I now see it's the "Fury DPS" Spreadsheet thread. I am primarily Fury on our raids, and I'm sure this thread is also read by other non Fury specs as well, especially if it ends up being the new standard spreadsheet thread.

Possessed · 03/19/08, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by landsoul

Buffed stats on the Gear Display Page.. Do you want to see numbers from Output Page? or stats when not in combat?

Originally I was thinking OOC buffed, ie just blessings/motw/consumables etc. But either would be nifty, or perhaps even a row for each option.

This gave me another thought regarding buffs: on the buffs sheet, a column which displays how much each buff adds to your total DPS. Currently you can of course just turn the buff on/off and observe the change, but I think being able to see how much each buff buffs (heh :P) our damage by - all at once would be pretty cool.

This could then be taken further and each buff could be assigned a group, so that for example we could see how much an enhance shaman (WF + UR + Totems + BL?), or druid (LOTP + FF) or the total of our consumables (Flask + Food + Pots) increase our damage

Also I don't see a debuff slot for improved seal of the crusader (3% crit from retribution paladin).

Oh ya, thanks for adding the proc DPS to the item stats on the gear page

landsoul · 03/20/08, 1:07 AM

Originally Posted by Possessed

Oh ya, thanks for adding the proc DPS to the item stats on the gear page

its Strength equivalency points....not damage per second. Its a method to rank items to see which are better and by how much. What you are asking is reasonable, but its a lot of work to move and edit these things now without making a mistake and causing an error chain or risk being inaccurate.

to view delta DPS, I included an Overall DPS box basically in plain sight everywhere you can make a change, so it would be easy to visualize. Are you having trouble with that?