Havoc12

I am not sure of that yet. Its likely that gheal will be superior in most cases. With GH at 5.5k and FH at 2.5k, if a deficit is ~2.5k you are better off using GH. If a deficit is slightly larger ~3k, then you can use FH but that will leave some of the damage unhealed. Flash heal will not be the best choice for maximising output for pretty much the same reason as it is right now. It has no real niche. You are better off ignoring small deficits and let them be moped up by chain heal+flash of light and focus on aoe healing, bomb healing the tanks, and keeping renew+pom up. A fight in which you only have small deficits to heal and aoe/mulitarget healing is not applicable is trivial anyway.

 

Hegen

I am not sure of that either, it's just an educated guess based on my gut feeling how the changes work at 70 with my play style. Also, a few tiny changes can quickly change the feasibility of FL. If balancing discovers that a real replacement for efficiently healing low amounts is needed, what will Blizzard do? Make "Heal" scale with talents und nerf Serendipity a bit? Make FL a bit more mana efficient?

Sure, although when raid healing in most cases I wouldn't really care about a few hundred hitpoints unhealed. In addition, consider that the tradeoff between mana cost and heal speed has shifted somewhat. Even 20% more mana used can be a good trade for 1s cast time saved (sure, spellhaste reduces this, as do other haste effects) depending on the fight. Especially if it leads to 1s more time OO5SR - but that's way too early to theorycraft, I'd say.

Maybe the heal style will also differ significantly between 10-mans and 25-mans. In 10-mans, we frequently don't have chain heals mopping up small amounts of damage.

 

Bendyr

How does Improved Holy Concentration compensate for mana efficiency lost? If anything, the inefficiency of the priest nuke heals will make it less likely that I will use all 3 charges of the Improved Holy Concentration within 20 seconds.

 

Hegen

Improved Holy Concentration increases the chance of Holy Concentration proccing, thus increasing mana efficiency.

The thing that I am really sure of is that we cannot just skill exactly as we do now as the downranking nerf is going to hit us big time.

Whether Improved Holy Concentration plus Serendipity is enough to compensate (or maybe even better) for the loss of downranking is another issue and one at least I don't feel comfortable to discuss right now.

 

Havoc12

I think people dont quite understand what exactly we lose through the downranking removal.

HPM of gheal 7 at 2400 healing is 8 HPM of rank 1 is 9.8, HPM of rank 3 is 9.1. Thus assuming mana costs stay pretty much the same we go from an average HPM of 9 on gheal to an average HPM of 8, an 11.2% reduction.

If however we get an extra 10% clearcasting and see it in the worst possible senario which is a straight 10% reduction in mana cost for gheal we get an 11% increase in HPM.

That means IHC with the worst possble senario of getting no extra oofsr time is sufficient to counteract completely the HPM loss from the loss of downranking.

When you factor in test of faith however and the extra 5% improvement from twin faiths, I would say we come out well ahead in HPM.

The major issue with the removal of downranking is what do we do with small deficits. That problem is partially solved by serendipity. We simply use max rank in the same way that we use rank 3 now.

I dont think overall it will make a big difference. The removal of potions however does make a huge difference. For one thing it signals the end of flash heal spamming.

 

Bendyr

Ohhhh, did not read that first line... sorry bout that, you're right.

Yeah, I agree that more concrete numbers will be needed before we can say how huge the downranking is at the moment. All I know is that if I couldn't spam GH2 as is right now, I'd barely be able to heal a 5-man without drinking every pull.

 

uh...ok

Why don't you simply heal 5-mans by cast-cancelling GH7s on the tank while topping everyone else off with Renew or PoM? Downranking has fairly little place in a 5-man to begin with.

 

Mideci

So for me it comes down to the fact that I'll be spending 240 mana more on a Gheal 7 than a Gheal 3, but I have a 10% chance that said Gheal will be free with Improved Holy Concentration just for openers. In other words, the gap is actually only 170 mana on average. Then there is the possibility of getting back more than half of the mana from Serendipity on overheals, which are fairly common in 25s at least, and I don't see much problem there at all.

There aren't too many fights where multiple mana potions are part of my regimen, altho those of you on Brutallus and deeper Sunwell might differ and some Illidan Phase 2's can be ugly, I suspect that Serendipity procs are going to be very common on things like Brutallus because of the nature of the chain casting. Depending on how much overheal you are doing, you could come out ahead by a bit there. That said, losing 2 potions on Brutallus seems a bit excruciating.

 

KamPa

What worries me, is that you do all that in order to keep your single target healing more or less intact. You do, however, lose 10% cost reduction on CoH - and wasn't it made more expensive as well? Now, granted, this is mostly just for Twins - maybe P2 Illidan, too - but it could be a pain there.

I was also thinking about was also gemming - since you're limited to GH7, +healing might become less important, in favor of more regen. Twin Disciplines would already cover few Spinels, freeing space for more regen focused ones. IHC also might lower value of haste, except for CoH.

 

Starfire

I just did heroic BF and I casted a single heal on the Paladin tank for the first boss. It was a renew. The boss was dead before I even needed another heal.

I downrank in 5 mans because it keeps us moving. If we have a warrior or druid tanking, as long as I have mana, we're moving. The less mana I spend on healing is the more mana I spent casting holy fire or smite (interestingly enough, with all the haste I am wearing my smites are fairly decent dps -- for a healer).

Of course, I am not arguing for downranking here and I cede fully that for my purposes and endeavours IHC and Serendipity will be more than enough. However, I do feel that downranking in the current game has a place in 5-mans. According to Dr. Damage my greater heal rank 1s are hitting for 3.5k on average, that's more than a naked level 70... It seems like an awful waste and great inefficiency for me to throw higher ranks.

Of course, as Constantius pointed out, this is largely because of Empowered Healing. Still, I think tis more interesting and fascinating for -all- of us if we use smite/holy fire/mindblast etc during 5 mans.

 

Hegen

Maybe, maybe not. Downranking as a strong reason for more than 2000 addheal is gone. However, having more addheal will trigger Serendipity more often, thus saving mana, though in a different way. Hard to say right now, especially since it will depend much on the encounter and the priests skill to make use of this.

 

Havoc12

I reguarly offDPS while healing in heroics.

I dont think people realise quite how powerfull serendipity and test of faith are together.

If you proc serendipity it refunds 480 mana thus if you are spamming gh7 on a tank that is constantly above 90% health (as it should be on heroics) you will be spending 220 mana per gheal. If your tank spikes and your heal lands below 50% health, it will be a fairly massive heal due to test of faith.

Basically serendipity allows you to use rank 7 to heal damage healable by rank 1-3 and still spend less mana, while test of faith channels healing power in situations where they are less likely to overheal.

Taken together with the new twin faiths talent (5% more healing/damage), I am inclined to say that priests are not going to be affected by downranking at all.

[e] also lets not forget the new lightwell.

 

Hegen

The combination of both is very powerful indeed, however much less so if not tank healing or not tank healing exclusively.

Example:

If I am in ZA on a 2 healer run with medicore DPS, I have to do a combination of tank healing, topping off the raid and emergency healing for the raid. Just spamming GHeals on the tank doesn't cut it there, I need the GcDs for healing the raid too. A relatively large of my healing there comes from GHeal rank 1 or 2, as Renew is way too risky in most places and flash heal is too mana intensive if I don't have a shadow priest.

Test of faith is going to help for some emergency flashs and Nalorakk bear phase but otherwise unimpressive there. Ok, maybe at Halazzi the tank drops below 50% sometimes. Serendipity is going to help a lot with tank healing and looks like it could be more than just compensation. Anyway, at 70, most of us won't have Test of Faith, as we would have to sacrifice Improved Holy Concentration.

Lets take an example for where exactly the downranking nerf will hurt - perhaps there are ideas out there on how to handle that:

Raid healing at Akil'zon. People in the raid drop around 3000 to 4000 hitpoints pretty regularly (eagles, throw, lightning). So far I mostly used GHeal rank 1 to 3 with some Renews and Flash heals. Renew if things look calm, Flashes if time until storm cooldown is running out. Some of this is healed by PoM, but really most of the damage is healed by GH.

So, with the patch, at 70, Serendipity is not exactly helping a lot there (except with critheals), as isn't Test of Faith. Improved Holy Concentration is definitely going to help, the mana aspect as well as the haste.

With a large melee group, this encounter is a stretch for me when healing with a paladin and no shadow priest. Frankly, with the patch, I see myself switching role with paladin to put him on Raid-FL duty.

Any thoughts on how to handle that in the future?

 

Dekkar

This is something I had not considered. In other words, you simply end up in an advantageous situation every single time you cast a GHeal 7. I'm not sure what happens if you land a heal on a target at exactly 50% health though. I'm curious as to whether it would favour Serendipity or Test of Faith; alternatively, it could grant you neither effect or both effects simultaneously.

 

uh...ok

Except if you only casted max rank heals in a 5 man when needed (and let Renew do the rest), then you would be able to spend even more time DPSing, resulting in a net gain of DPS and less time fighting mobs. Thing is that when healing a 5-man, you get so many chances to just sit out of the FSR that you can effectively keep a higher mana pool by purely reactive healing.

DPSing aside, it's simply much more effective for your mana bar to only cast heals when needed (i.e. reactively) and to sit out of the FSR to regen when not, which is more or less the point I was originally making.

And clearly if you find yourself DPSing when healing 5 mans, the statement you made earlier of "I can't imagine doing 5 mans without downranking since I'd have to be drinking after every pull" is quite invalid.

 

Teip

Hello I am trying to figure out how to write the following code into excel.

I am able to do the first half as where B1 is Total Int Raid buffed and B8 is Total Spirit Raid Buffed
This gives me the totals for OO5SR but I am not sure how to get the I5SR to calculate based off that. I tried doing a search on spreadsheet and math but have come up with nothing. Thanks for any help!

 

ilkori

Finish working out your algebra before putting it in the spreadsheet. The ==> implies you could use a completely different cell to calculate that. Since the 005SR and I5SR numbers are both useful, simply put the second as a function of the other. The mp5 from gear will also be needed, though you should be hunting for replacements with spirit (as a general rule).

I5SR = X * OO5SR + [gear mp5]


X is 30% with Meditation, as you know, but could vary depending on trinkets / Primal Mooncloth, or if they decide to adjust it again.

"It's kind of fun to do the impossible." - Walt Disney

 

Havoc12

It does not make a difference who you are healing. If you are using GH1-2 to heal the damage (i.e. ~3k deficit) then gheal rank 7 has a good chance of procing seredipity. Only on non tanks there middle "dead zone" where you dont get either serendipity or test of faith is very very narrow. You will nearly always get either test of faith procing or serendipity and lets not forget an 11-12k test of faith crit on a DPS is certainly very likely to proc serendipity on top of it.

It will be interesting to see these talents in practice in level 70 situations. It will also be interesting to see the new disc talents.

Test of faith/serendipity is very usefull throughout ZA, as the damage in every encounter except akil'zon, is relatively shallow but with very sharp spikes, both on the tank and the raid. This is on top of IHC, which is already going to result in positive mana gain despite the downranking nerf.

 

Hegen

Well, getting Test of Faith, Serendipity and Improved Holy Concentration at 70 requires dropping Empowered Healing, except for 1 or 2 points depending on whether one is willing to sacrifice Inner Focus as well.

Assumptions about the chance of either Serendipity or Test of Faith proccing have a huge dependency on the amount of addheal and the actual balancing of the final patch. I hope I will get a chance during PTR to see how much exactly my GHeal 7 is going to heal at 70 with my equipment and a build that includes all three of the new talents.

Test-of-faith triggering spikes in ZA:

- Trash groups with hard hitting bear riders oder berserkers (4 total). In these cases, I would mostly see Serendipity, not Test of faith, as letting the tanks drop below 50% on purpose is way too risky if only one healer is working the tank. No problem there, as Serendipity improves the currenty situation. Not a scenario for Test of Faith.

- Nalorakk bear phase. Yes, drops below 50% are a given except when far overgearing the instance or working with 3 healers. However, even if I don't take Test of faith there, it's not worse than today, as I cannot safely downrank bear phase, especially if the second healer is not a druid.

- Aggro-pulling DDs during trash. Should be eliminated anyway for bear runs.

- Akil'zon: nope, or very rarely with low-hp players.

- Jan'alai: could happen with low-hp players. Also tank during soft enrage a 25%.

- Halazzi: maybe a relatively low-hp offtank during sabler lash. Maybe with a large melee group, but usually we try to heal quickly in order to prevent deaths when totems live a bit too long.

- Malacrass: only frost bolt damage. Well, it might be worth it to let the raid drop below 50% on purpose during spirit bolts in order to trigger Test of Faith. Tricky.

- Zul'Jin: single target lynx attack during phase 4 and slow runners in a phase 5 with low dps.

I have to concede that co-healing with a paladin instead of a druid lets the damage look a bit more spiky.


As for the total outcome of the changes at 70, I think the arguments are all on the table, and we will just have to wait and see how this works out in combination with the reworking of raid buffs and debuffs and the tank talents as well. If the mitigation profile of the tank classes changes, the damage profile will change as well and thus will our healing style.


Addendum: only after writing this post have I fully realized that with talents like Test of Faith and Serendipity the coordination between healing classes will become even more important - in order to make the most efficient use of these talents. "HP deficit shaping" looks like an interesting topic after 3.0.

 

Liriel

Yes, we priests would like to do so, but think about the shamans with their chainheal. They would not let that happen. The same as with our groupheal(s) at the moment. I dont know how often a chainheal healed someone high enough that some of my poh was wasted (on fights where I'm assigned to heal my group with poh). They will ever chainheal the raid. And chainheal will ever pick the ones with the greatest needs. That are the ones we hope(d) to drop below 50%.

Stupid shaman? No. It is the safer way to not let anybody drop so low if not needed. If anybody, it's the priest who should get that blame.

I don't see it happen in most situations. You can coordinate that the paly does not have to heal himself so he gets more mana. But I dont see how to help the priest with Test of Faith on purpose if you are not truly overgeared. And if you are overgeared you should not need it anymore.

Yes, there will ever be encounters where nearly everybody drops below 50% and where it is hard enough to bring them all up again. But that is not something that is "coordinatin between heaing classes" as you put it.

 

Hegen

I agree in that one should not usually let people drop below 50% except in certain situations where we know it's safe. One example where I might do this is during Malacrass' spirit bolts. In most cases, Test of Faith, in my opinion, is not strong enough anyway to risk this.

However, a good healer team can make aggressive use of Serendipity, at least from how the talent looks like now. I'm pretty sure I could get this to work with a handful of healers I play with. In 10-mans, that's probably a lot more realistic than in 25 mans, especially since there more people tend to look at meters first.

 

Maive

I am wondering what those who have/had the T4 two-piece thought of the 150+heal to POM bonus. I use POM almost on every cooldown, so think this bonus would be very important to me as a healer, but I'm wondering if you noticed it helping very much?

Also, does anyone like the T5 gear? And when did you give up your Primal Mooncloth to switch those 3 pieces?

 

Sepp

The 2 piece bonus of T4 applies to Prayer of Healing, not Prayer of Mending (it is a HoT for 150 healing, which breaks on damage afaik, so it is not really good).