Mearis

As most guilds that are learning Brutallus, I was looking at a few things to maximise total raid DPS. One of the most trivial things that most guilds do is use up one heroism in the caster group sub<20% to stack with molten fury, and rotate the remaining heroisms in the melee group, since that group tipically has the highest DPS.

However - rogues/enh shamans/warriors all scale relatively terribly with heroism.

At the very high end, rogues top out between 60-70% white damage, depending on warglaives/DST. Yellow damage for rogues/warriors scales very poorly with heroism - for rogues it would be a 30% increase in CP procs, and for warriors it would be increased rage gen - but they most likely are already nearly at full rage all the time in most raid situations. This means that being generous, heroism is at most a 20% DPS increase for most people in the group.

Mages and warlocks on the other hand scale a full 30% with heroism, and in the case of Brutallus, mages can use icy veins twice stacked with heroism.

My immediate thought would be to heroism the mage group early on about one minute into the fight, so mages can pop icy veins for the first time + heroism for maximum damage, and heroism again once you hit sub 20% to use it again in conjuction with icy veins.

Assuming you have:

1 melee DPS group
2 caster DPS groups (3 warlocks, 3 mages, 2 shamans)

and 5 heroisms or so the optimal assigment intuitively seems to be to drop 2 heroism per caster groups, and only 1 on the melee group.

Concerns are obviously threat for the casters, I am not sure if casters can possibly maintain below the threat cap getting two heroisms. Has anyone else tried to give casters multiple heroisms?

 

Poloma

We gave the melee group 2 heroisms one at (85% and one at 20%) and the caster group 2(60% and 20%). The destruction warlocks do need to lookout for threat though.

 

Optikalusion

Actually it works very differently than you think.

First of all, Rogues and dps warriors have an inherant speed increase of 35/30% thanks to slice and dice and flurry. Rogues also have blade flurry and haste potions. Haste works like this (%*%*%*(Overall Haste Rating) Multiplicative haste effect Multiply with each other, while haste rating effect stack and then are multiplied by total rating %, increasing heroisms overall effect. So, in this rogue example, a standard 30% heroism turns into (30%*35%*20%*(xxx rating from gear + 400 from haste pot + 325 DST proc + etc)). In this example one will reach 306% attack speed not counting passive haste alone. Haste has no DR for melee. This is however only ONE reason why haste is so powerful.

Rogue and warriors ALSO do a ton of proc based dps (Energy regen on hit, Sword spec, WF attack, and trinket procs). These effects ALSO proc off of each other making dps done from haste alone a quadratic increase.

I'd argue that overall damage done to a full melee group (3 rogues warr shaman) outdoes any caster group save mages sub 20%.

It's only a matter of time before somone smarter and with more free time on their hands than I comes along and postes definitive math on the subject proving one of us right, so lets get to arguing before that happens.

 

Morakk

Depends on your raid makeup I'm sure. Skill of individual players probably matters as well, but honestly I think any guild with a realistic shot at killing Brutallus has 15 dps that can hit shadowbolt/keep up slice and dice/whatever and hit cooldowns efficiently enough.

But I can imagine one guild running around with three rogues with six warglaives between them, while another guild has none. Or having three shaman versus six. Or having only one shadow priest, or two or three (is three overkill enough as to be non-viable on Brutallus?).


[E] Saying that Bloodlust/Heroism stacks multiplicatively with all over haste effects is true; using this fact to argue that it makes it better for classes with more passive haste effects/procs is specious.

 

alienangel

Don't overlook the BM hunters please Heroism timed to coincide with Beastial Wrath does delicious things for pet + hunter DPS. Need to pre-time it though, since the hunter will typically want to use BW not later than 30s into the fight, while mages/warlocks/rogues in the group tend to not like heroism that early. And the hunter won't want to have rapid fire up while heroism'd.

 

◊ manly

Well, for a fire mage ideally I want 2 bloodlust. The obvious sub-20%, then the other one matching my 3 min cooldowns.

Even if I am not at execute range, I do have quite an amount of cooldowns to stack with bloodlust, namely:
bloodlust (+30% haste)
icy veins (+20% haste/20s)
drums of battle (+5% haste)
combustion (3 guaranteed crits)
skull of gul'dan (+11.15% haste/20s)
destruction potion (+120dmg, 2% crit/15s)
flame cap (+80 dmg)
hex shrunken head (+211 dmg/20s)

everything in there is multiplicative except combustion. I can't say how much it boosts rogue dps, but for mages everything is multiplicative pretty much and leads to quite absurd numbers.

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Tempestra

Manly - for a mages to stack the 2nd heroism with 3-minute cooldowns, it has to happen in the first 30-40 seconds or so, correct? That is, the 2-minute cooldowns won't roll around for a 3rd time unless we pop them early enough. If this is the case, is there possibly a threat issue with such an early spike in DPS?

Typically the only danger period is in the first 20-30 seconds or so, when a chain of crits might pull aggro (at least in my experience). Have you been able to blow heroism that early with all our synergistic cooldowns and still not have a problem?

 

◊ manly

Nothing that prevents you from doing invisibility.

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Anedris

3-minute cooldowns can be used only twice in a 6 minute fight so they would be used at around the 2 minute mark and the 5 minute mark (the latter being molten fury range, obviously).

 

Tempestra

Right but in a 6 minute fight, your 2-minute cooldowns are ideally stacked with your 3-minute cooldowns, so timing is constrained by the 2-minute cooldowns - not the 3.

Invis it is I guess =)

 

◊ Birdemani

double post, stupid lag

 

◊ Birdemani

Again, I think that depends on makeup. If you have more than one dps war, only one will be arms. It's possible that the one or more other fury wars will have Imp Execute. Along with the procs you mentioned above, and adding in mongoose/dragonstrike, I'm not sure there is anything in the game that will do as much dps as that fury war sub 20% with heroism. However, even with stats breaking 5000AP and 40%crit and all that haste, it is most likely wise to give it to the multiple mage group over the one fury warrior.

 

Vulcana

Not necessarily. If you pop the 2m cooldowns on the pull, you can still stack them with your first and second set of 3m cooldowns, however it still partially defeats the purpose of waiting until that 2m mark to pop the cooldowns.

Either way, you'll probably end up eating 2-3 ticks of invis.

 

galzohar

Keep a few things in mind:

1. Making someone who is not threat capped to be threat capped by stacking too many heroisms limits DPS. For a mage using invisibility, if it just changes when he uses invis and not wether he actually uses it or not then it doesn't matter, but if it changes him from using invis to not using it then it actuall has a cost of 5 seconds. At the end most classes seem to be able to at least do their normal DPS and generate less threat than the tank, but I'm not sure how much you can increase that DPS while still keeping them under the threat cap, especially when used early.

2. While melee has a lot of haste buffs, it does not matter. What matters is that their WHITE dps increases by 30% and their specials are increased by whatever rage/energy is generated by that 30% extra attack speed. Overall not hard to calculate, but just the fact they have a lot of attack speed multipliers don't mean anything.

3. Hasted casters actually don't increase by straight up 30% due to mana. Depending on the class and the mana situation he's running into on the given fight, it could be between full 30% to much lower than that. For a warlock it's a rather fixed *almost* 30% personal DPS, possibly more due to some increased ISB uptime for the raid (since some of his mana is actually regenerated but most is lifetapped which is boosted by haste, so his lifetap ratio will go slightly higher but nothing significant) - but then again warlocks are the first to get threat capped, and threat capping with heroism means it's quite wasted. For mages on mights up to 6 minutes, if they have a shadow priest, they will have to maybe use 1 mana pot instead of their 2min mark destro pot or squeeze a mana gem between the flame caps, and even that is avoidable with good JoW uptime if available. Gettinga 2nd BL will possibly cost with some other cooldown (lose 1 flame cap for a mana gem or a destro pot for a mana pot). A mage without a shadow priest on a 6 min fight will gain far lower than 30% since he has to use quite inefficient methods of gaining mana. At the end it's always a significant DPS increase regardless of mana, but we're looking at how significant it is, and mana limitations do affect how much you actually get from bloodlust as a caster.

Again I'm not sure it's actually less than 30% in all of these cases due to possible stacking options (which don't only apply to mages, while other classes have less cooldowns they also add DPS), but you get the idea.

So as you can see, on top of what's already mentioned that you need to calculate how much DPS is actually increased for each class doing its rotation, there is more to it that depends on the fight's nature (fight duration, tank threat, dps uptime, burst phases) and the raid/party composition (shadow priests avilability, warglavie rogues...).

 

Vulcana

Just something to note off of what Galz just mentioned with using inefficient mana regeneration methods:

On a 6m fight like brutallus, if you pop a flamecap on the pull, you can squeeze in a mana emerald as soon as it comes off cooldown and then you'll have exactly 1 minute of flamecap uptime (at the 5m mark). While this is not exactly the best way to do it, as you end up wasting flame cap uptime on scorches, missing molten fury uptime (20% before 5m), or conversely wasting flame cap uptime after the boss is dead.

Hopefully, it's not needed. If WoW Jesus loves you, maybe your RNG won't blow ass in terms of proccing your MoE/JoW.

[E] We're starting to drift off topic, I think. Or at least I'm starting to.

 

galzohar

Actually the RNG variance from MoE and JoW isn't all that great, at least not compared to taht caused by the changing uptime% of JoW due to paladin slack (or lack of ret pally combined with busy healing) goes anywhere from 0 to 100%.

 

Optikalusion

Once again, not entirely that simple! A good portion of melee dps comes from procs like sword spec and WF procs. These things also proc off of each other. So with every % of haste given a melee there is more chances per second that any of these things will occur, and increasing the occurance of one also further increases the occurance of the other!

Rogues are in the area of 70% white damage and 30% specials (warriors far less at around 40% white). What remains to be mathematically proven is if the added gains from proc dps and extra rage/dps in that 30% area is equivalent to a much more easily calcuable caster % dmg increase.

Also regarding the casting speed buffs:

Drums of battle and skull of gudan are rating increases, not percentual and will therefore be added together with passive haste from gear before multiplied by veins/bloodlust. Small nitpicking, sorry!

 

◊ manly

Yes, I'm well aware. The point still stands though, a full t6 mage with perfect pre-T6 gear does roughly 2x his normal DPS when using all the cooldowns listed (and molten fury). This means roughly ~4k+ DPS for the duration. Of course, in this case I don't have molten fury (+20% dmg), which hurt the numbers, but regardless the bulk of the other cooldowns makes any additional 'cooldown' stack on top of it immensely powerfull.

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Vulcana

True, but I've been screwed out of some ungodly amounts of crit due to the RNG system not being my friend. But yeah, JoW uptime as opposed to any rng-based effects is going to be a bigger factor than anything else.

 

◊ manly

Thinking about this, why not simply compare the bloodlusted DPS from all members of a group assuming a baseline of 'best pre-sunwell gear'. Give to whichever group has the highest numbers.

I know for mages we can only get good dps from bloodlust twice in a 6 minute fight. I imagine all classes have to deal with the same thing up to some level (ex: haste potion cooldown will play into this in addition of other cooldowns).

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• Anarkii

One other small thing to note is that for melee, haste is independent of reaction and latency since auto attacks occur server-side, while for casters it is not. The 1.732s fireball with bloodlust up may practically be a 1.8 or 1.9s fireball.

 

Iluminati

Problem with double heroism on mages/locks is two-fold:

a) threat
b) mana - 30% cast speed = increased mana usage. Most mages are pretty tight on mana, and warlocks dont want to be using lifetap anymore than necessary.

Melee has neither problem in my experience.

 

ohrion

DISCLAIMER: I am not in sunwell.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly, but your statement sounds similar to one I hear from many raiders and if you're saying what I think you're saying it won't actually maximize raid DPS, it maximizes those individuals' DPS. To maximize raid DPS you want to find the group that sees the largest increase in DPS.

For example (just random numbers)
Group 1 has a collective DPS without heroism of 6k.
Group 1 has a collective DPS with heroism of 7k.

Group 2 has a collective DPS without heroism of 5k.
Group 2 has a collective DPS with heroism of 6.5k.

By your suggestion (again, if I understand you) we would give heroism to group 1, in reality raid DPS sees more benefit from giving it to group 2. It is possible that the highest DPS group will also see the highest gain in DPS, but many factors play into it so it may not be the case.

 

Trickykid

With very low regen outside of life tap, the life tap frequency (relative to nukes) increases by a very small amount. Haste just increases the speed at which a lock can go through a nuke/tap "cycle", it doesn't make him less efficient. This is why locks start at just shy of 30% increased damage from 30% increased haste if they didn't change their life tap habits during that period. If you life tap prior to the haste, you can amplify trinkets or other buffs stacked on top of heroism/bloodlust more.

 

• Mjollnir

I don't know about you, but I am an aggro FIEND. In fact, my system won't support dmg meters (dmg meters, recount, swstats etc have all caused lag and d/c issues), and my measure of monitoring my dps has instead become watching Omen

This question is more than just class limited: Trolls have zerking, which is wonderful when timed with Lust and 2min cds.
Haste pots are not limited to rogues.
White damage for a warrior might actually *decrease* with haste, due to tighter requirement to use rage burnoff (heroic strike) and a recent discovery there is no 'hastened' penalty to rage generation.
Can't believe the OP forgot about warriors with the 20% burn... unless I read it wrong. 'Execute Range' is the popular term afterall, not 'Molten Fury Range'...