Aural

Which groups to give multiple heroisms also depends on the nature and requirements of the fight.

Lately my guild has been doing double Bloodlust on the ranged caster group (Destro Lock, 2 Mages, Shadowpriest((Me!!)) and Elemental Shaman, who is rotated out for the BL) in Illidan Phase 2, starting right before the first barrage. This helps gets the Flames down quickly, which means less chance of a tank not dodging an eye blast.

For this purposes of this thread, it seems like setting Brutallus as the benchmark is the standard.

 

Takkara

Let's say you barely make the enrage timer on Brutallus. So 6 mins = 360 seconds. Heroism is a 40sec ability that grants 30% haste. If a group has stacked heroisms it'll look like the following:

1 heroism = 40/360 = 1/9 * 30% = 3.33% haste averaged
2 heroism = 80/360 = 2/9 * 30% = 6.66% haste averaged
3 heroism = 120/360 = 1/3 * 30% = 10% haste averaged
4 heroism = 160/360 = 4/9 * 30% = 13.33% haste averaged

I'll consider that the edge of the amount of heroisms available to a raid, and especially to a certain group.

Now let's look at Drums of Battle. 30s ability that gives 80 haste rating or about 5% haste. 2m CD.

1 drum = 30/120 = 1/4 * 5% = 1.25%
2 drum = 60/120 = 1/2 * 5% = 2.5%
3 drum = 90/120 = 3/4 * 5% = 3.75%
4 drum = 120/120 = 1 * 5% = 5%

The reason to lay this out like this is to show that every group can get 1.5 heroism if they get people to bring drums. Aside from that you see the relatively small amounts of haste that they actually offer when you average it out over the course of the entire fight. It shows that it's powerful, but less influential than say stacking heroism on Teron or any other shorter fight.

As for where to use heroisms on Brutallus. I know what we did and I can't see a lot wrong with it, though it's mostly the solution that works best with the raid we have to take.

1 physical group stacked
2 caster group stacked
3 caster/healer group
4 physical/tank group
5 healer group
*5 shaman

Group 1 and 2 have maximal synergies (4 drums and 5 dps) so we split the heroism between them. Casters get them at 3m-2m-20% and melee gets them at 2m-20% for execute range. We always time at least one of the heroisms in each group to come up precisely when CD's do. We swap the paladin (alliance guild, as far as I know SoC still doesn't scale well with haste) and the spriest (lowest dps caster) out for the shaman for multiple heroisms.

Works well it seems. If we had one fewer heroism we'd probably drop one of the melee ones and keep the caster one, and only heroism melee at 20%. We have no glaives though, and our casters do sick enough dps that we feel it's worth more with his high armor as long as they don't OOM.

 

galzohar

If a shadowpriest is worth his raid slot, it's not nescessarily a good idea to swap him out for the heroism use, however if his DPS is already high enough without heroism for the mage to never evocate then not giving him heroism is probably a good idea (which is probably the case). So assuming those conditions happen, swapping out the shadowpriest is actually something to consider (but again, you need to have a high DPSer take his place which may not be high enough if his party doesn't have proper support (totems, his own SP)).


Unfortunately, I don't see a way of getting around going to each class' spreadsheet and combining the results to get the full picture. There are just too many factors to take into account to give a generalized answer. The only simple case is one where you have no more and no less than 2 heroisms and then you'd give 1 to the melee and 1 to the caster - (sub-20%) and even that isn't 100% certain.

 

◊ Kalman

You missed the point. They're not swapping an spriest for another DPS in order to boost the DPSer; they're swapping the spriest/retpal out of the group in exchange for the shaman who is giving heroism to another group than his normal group. This is almost certainly the optimal way to chain multiple heroisms through DPS groups if those groups contain an spriest or ret paladin, unless they also contain a healer (in which case swap the healer out and leave the DPS in.)

 

galzohar

For the melee group you should probably swap both the ret pally and the enhance shaman. For the dps group if you're swapping out the shadow priest you should definitely swap out the elemental shaman as well. I thought not giving more than 1 heroism per shaman was a no-brainer due to the naturally lower DPS of ele/enhance shaman.

 

• Mjollnir

It has nothing to do with 'lower dps' when looking for who will make the most gain from it. A sps for example, cannot put Lust to any great use, seeing as how their most damaging spells are a DoT, or have a CD in which Lust has 0 influence.
Granted, you must also view things from a 'how much raw dps will I gain' and use 'who makes the most use of' only as a starting block.

 

Iluminati

The shadow priest example is not necessarily true, as if they have a decent amount of base haste (150~, pretty common), mind flay will be higher dps than mind blast while under bloodlust. Still, if we're talking about optimal optimization, a shadow priest is not the best use of a heroism.

 

galzohar

Remember that the mana regen added by the shadow priest also gives DPS by less lifetaps/evo ticks/etc. However since we're talking mage group and on brutalus they shouldn't need evocation ticks the extra mana regen from extra shadowpriest dps is probably not worth it over giving it to a real dpser, but it's not that straight forward.

Just like rogues and warriors have far less than 100% white damage they still gain a lot from both the fact that just 70% of their damage is still high damage and the fact they also gain more rage/energy. It's just more complicated than the just the direct dps increase of haste.

 

Undernet01

When I Raid, the Raid Leader usually has us use all our Heroism at once.. =/

 

Gokey

I apologize if this has already been answered:

I've heard of (and seen in a few videos) a mod that moves people into group 8 to use the heroism for every shaman. With this, you could easily funnel all of the heroisms to your highest dpsers.

The problem is.. I can't seem to find it anywhere. Does anyone have any idea what it's called?

 

vorda

The addons that adjust raid layouts while in combat do not work anymore since 2.0 . (and never will)

 

Iluminati

If you're in group 8 and out of the instance I'm gonna guess you won't be in combat. Whether or not you're still locked out from altering groups with a mod, I don't know.

 

• Mjollnir

Vashj p2 ~> p3 transition. Kael p3 ~> p4 transition. There are times when using all Lusts can be an optimal thing, but I believe this thread is dedicated to 'making the most usage of Lust through DPS'.

 

galzohar

He said "usually", while these examples are the exceptions and not the norm. Not to mention even in those cases it's not nescessarily a good idea to use all the lusts, since lusting healers (and in a lot of cases tanks) is quite pointless, as they should already have enough throughput to handle the phase without lust (since if they didn't, people would die the second lust runs out).

Not that healers can't use haste, not at all, it's just not nearly as useful as hasting DPS. Hasting healers simply doesn't allow you to kill the boss any better unless he has some crazy burst DPS phase that only lasts 40 seconds max - any other case and you'll have to bring enough healers to heal through it without lust anyway, that you're better off lusting DPS. Usually tanks have more than enough threat to out-do DPSers, and even if some DPSers are "riding the threat line" it's probably better to use more tranquil air and give some more lusts to DPSers (that are either riding the threat line or not depending on your options).

Regarding tranquil air for threat, obviously it'll need to be used in advance, as if you're almost pulling aggro without lust you will most likely do more extra threat with lust than tranquil air will reduce. This is a challenge of its own, of course, as you'll have to predict your tank's threat generation which has quite a bit of variance, as well as your own DPS which isn't exactly a fixed number (although doesn't seem to vary as much as tank TPS).

 

Mirranda

Don't really have time to read through all 3 pages, I read the first page, but we have a situation as follows.

4 Shamans in the raid.

1 Melee Group
1 Caster Group

misc casters mixed with healers in a third.

Caster group uses Tranquil Air totem for the first 30 seconds to give an extra threat buffer, then switch to Wrath of Air for duration of fight.
@ 1 min, Caster Group does first Bloodlust and stacks all CDs (2min and 3min)
@ 20% Mark a second Shaman is switched in for a second Bloodlust in place of the Shadow Priest. 3 Minute CDs are up and have been up for roughly 50s, but 2min CDs come up almost exactly @ 20% mark.

Melee also get 2 Bloodlusts, first @ their second round of 2 minute CDs (they save AR for this point), and again when their next set of 2min CDs come up. (i.e. pull, BF, Haste Pot, AP trinket, etc @ 30 seconds, @ 2:30 all of above + AR + BL and @ 4:30 all 2min CDs + 2nd BL)

That's just from my guild's experience and it's worked quite well from a Caster's PoV. The melee BL's might be slightly different than I stated as I'm the Elemental Shaman so I coordinate the BLs for my group.

Pretend I typed something witty.

 

Healranktwo

I don't know if this is the right place to ask, but since this is a topic discussing what classes benefit the most from heroism...

Does 3% crit give more dps to a fire mage or a destro lock? I can't figure out if imp SB uptime > whatever the fire mage gains (ignites?). I should mention that i'm asking which is best for raid dps.

 

Gokey

These videos were much more recent than that.

 

Waagaa

From my point of view, a couple of things need to be taken into account:
1. Personal DPS of the candidates for DPS and the effect BL will have on them
1.a. Heroism's effect on the different DPS classes
1.b. Threat margin of the candidates for Heroism
2. Group synergy: BL is given to the shaman and four others in the same group

Heroism's effect on different classes:

I'm assuming no mana-issues.

This question can be divided in two parts:
1. What part of this class' DPS is effected by Bloodlust / Heroism?
2. Which cooldowns does this class have at it's disposal to amplify the effect of heroism?

Casters and latency

Mage
Mages' DPS comes from DD spells, 30% haste will speed up their casting so they can theoretically cast 30% more spells in the same timeframe. This diminishes as latency increases. DPS increase from DD spells can be formulated as:

t = cast time
l = latency

DPS increase = (1 - (1 / (0.77 * t + l)) / (1 / (t + l))) * 100%

So for a fire mage, with 3 sec fireballs, the DPS increase will be:
100ms latency: 29%
200ms latency: 27%
500ms latency: 25%

So the effect of bloodlust is diminished by latency for mages. This can be nearly completely diminished by smart use of a addon like Quartz and the serverside spellqueue that was introduced in a previous patch. Still, latency will be a factor to caster heroism utilization and it gets bigger when the main nuke is a shorter cast.

The following things can be used by a mage to fully exploit the bloodlust period, greatly increasing the DPS during the period:
Molten fury (execute range +20% dmg)
Icy veins (+20% haste)
Skull of gul'dan (175 haste)
Flame cap (+80 dmg)
Destruction potion (+120 dmg, 2% crit)
Drums of battle (80 haste) - Requires a Leatherworker in the group
Hex Shrunken Head (+211dmg)
Combustion (3 garanteed crits)

Warlock

Warlocks have DoTs and DD spells. Their DoTs will not be effected, only their DD damage. Shadowbolt has a 2.5 sec casting time, so the numbers for the effect of BL on their DD are as follows:
100ms latency: 28%
200ms latency: 27%
500ms latency: 24%

The warlock's regular life tap -> bolt cycle can just stay the same, as the GCD also gets decreased. The warlock can use his/her +dmg trinkets. If planned carefully, the warlock can try to be at 100% mana before the BL and just spam Shadowbolts during it's duration, thus increasing BL's effect, maybe even foregoing refreshing DoTs (depends on how bolts vs dots compare to his total damage %wise).

Enhancement Shaman

Increases white damage by 30%. Will produce a couple more WF procs due to the higher attack speed and thus will lower WF downtime a little. The amount of extra WF procs will probably not be significant. The enhancement shaman will of course always receive at least one heroism: their own. Enhancement shamans tend to be threat-capped, so it might not be a good idea to give them more than one heroism.

Elemental Shaman

Assuming the CL LB LB LB rotation, CL will get dangerously close to the GCD cap of 1sec if the elemental shaman has some haste gear. The shaman might need to just resort to LB spam for this. LB has a cast time of 2 sec.

DPS increase per latency:
100ms latency: 28%
200ms latency: 27%
500ms latency: 24%

The shaman can use +dmg trinkets during this heroism and will also be giving out at least one himself.

Rogue

Effects of Heroism on the rogue are an increase of 30% in white damage and an extra 30% CP and poison procs if the rogue is combat specced. Wind Fury procs are counted as white damage, they're simply 20% extra MH attacks (with a tad more AP), which aren't on a CD.

This extra white damage and energy/poison procs aren't effected by latency. The rogue can use +dmg activated trinkets to make better use of heroism. During heroism he'll be able to use up a bit more energy due to the extra CP procs, resulting in a few more specials and a couple more finishers.

Arms Warrior

Heroism on an Arms Warrior will give 30% extra white damage and 30% more slams due to a faster weapon speed. The slam rotation uses White -> Slam -> WW -> White -> Slam -> MS. The warrior won't be able to fill in a lot more WW's and MS's. Sub-20% this is moot anyway, because Execute will probably be spammed.

So: 30% increase in white damage, 30% increase in Slam damage during the Heroism period.

If recklessness is used, the warrior will have near 100% crit rate for 15 seconds. This is one of the most powerful cool downs to use during Heroism. (Approx 50% more DPS by going form 30% to 100% ish crit). Death Wish can also be used for an additional 20% damage boost during 30 sec.

Fury Warrior

Fury warriors gain 30% more White damage during the Heroism. Their instant attacks are on cool downs, so it doesn't effect their DPS from those. They will get more rage, so they can burn off more with heroic strikes, turning more white damage into yellow damage, thus lowering the amount of glancing blows. The gain in damage will thus be higher than 30% of their white damage.

If recklessness is used, the warrior will have near 100% crit rate for 15 seconds. This is one of the most powerful cool downs to use during Heroism. (Approx 50% more DPS by going form 30% to 100% ish crit). Death Wish can also be used for an additional 20% damage boost during 30 sec.

Shadow Priest

The SP is a DoT class with all their DD but one (Mind Flay) on cool downs. Heroism can allow a shadow priest to fit in an extra Mind Flay into their rotation, also returning a bit more mana to their group.

Retribution Paladin

Don't have enough experience with Retridins to do a good assessment.

Feral Druid

Increases white damage by 30%, gives more Omen of Clarity procs, so increases energy efficiency a bit.

Hunter

Depends heavily on the attack speed of the hunter and their rotation. auto -> steady spam with a close to 2 sec hasted weapon speed can give really good, efficient DPS. I'm not sure which hunter rotation is prevalent at the Sunwell level.

Group synergy
In practice, the question will often be: which group to give heroism? So in the end it's a matter of:
1. Melee group (combination of rogues/warrs/shammies/feral druid/retridin)
2. Caster group (warlocks/mages)
3. Hunters

Or whatever weird group setup your raid ends up with from the 25 people you picked of those online.

General guideline
If we could come up with a general %wise increase in DPS per class, taking into account their specific effect from heroism we could then just look at the personal DPS per group member for each group and then calculate the "perceived" DPS increase from blood lusting that group.

Don't forget to take into account though that dead DPS doesn't do any damage and that getting threat capped by heroism is a bad idea, it sort of wastes the effect. You might end up giving the hunters a heroism, not because it's the absolute biggest damage increase for the raid, but because they might be the only ones that can handle that much extra threat.

 

Grymm

We've been running 3 shaman on Brutallus. We have 3 strong dps groups. We have the mage group, the warlock group, and the melee group. The warlock group tends to run tranquil air for a portion of the fight to buy aggro room. The warlock group generally gets the first heroism (not heroism priority, simply the earliest heroism as there isn't reason to wait). They average about 2k dps per person so it's a decent chunk of damage. They are also guaranteed to not run out of mana. If we're running 4 locks, only one is using a damage curse. None run corruption as it tends to result in a loss of dps and only one is running fire.

The mage group (boomkin/sp/magex3) gets a 20% heroism and the melee group gets a 20%. The 20% phase is maybe 70 seconds long so it would be almost impossible to chain heroisms at that stage without wasting time. For us, then, the question becomes would you take a 20% heroism from a group to give a second to a group above 20%? I don't think that's warranted. Heroism to an executing, recklessed fury warrior is probably more raid damage than heroism to 2 mages above 20%. Similarly, heroism to a IV'ed, trinketed, destro-potted, molten fury mage is probably more than it is to a rogue above 20%. So, if you have a mage and melee group and 2 heroisms, they should both get one sub-20%.

The only question for us, then, is do we steal the warlock's heroism? The mages would need to switch to mana consumables to sustain that level of damage and they probably won't want to aggro cap and invis early in the fight which would be required to get their CDs up for second heroism. I'm not sure a second above 20% heroism for the melee would result in a game changing amount of damage and I don't need the extra aggro later on in the fight when I want to execute with wreckless abandon. So, the locks get it after they soul shatter at whatever percent makes them happy.

Our swaps - reckless for the melee group generally involves swapping the BM hunter from the tank/goa group to the melee group for the ret paly. The enh shaman is the melee heroism obviously. Heroism for the mages takes the GOA shaman from the tank group for their SP. Warlocks run with a shaman already for Tranq Air/Wrath of Air. It works out pretty fair. We used to have a Ele Shaman that sustained excellent DPS but was often aggro capped.

 

◊ manly

Your model is incomplete for fire mages. Here is the complete list of things a fire mage will stack:

Bloodlust (+30% haste)
Molten fury (execute range +20% dmg)
Icy veins (+20% haste)
Skull of gul'dan (175 haste)
Flame cap (+80 dmg)
Destruction potion (+120 dmg, 2% crit)
Drums of battle (80 haste)
---
Hex Shrunken Head (+211dmg)
Combustion (3 garanteed crits)

All of those stack together, with the small note that combustion is the least synergistic of them. But all other cooldowns multiply the effect of each others.

 

LockApologist

Hasn't WF not proc'd on specials since pre-BC?

 

◊ Shalas

No, that was a hotfix during 2.2.

 

Waagaa

Yes, I completely missed that one, fixing..

 

vokzhen

And ect. with the other casters.

Spell queue fixes this for the most part, unless I've gravely mistaken. Sub-250ms ping, the highest time between casts is generally 10ms (excluding the end of Flay, of course). Above 250ms I haven't really checked, but even those freak, half-second-long 1000ms latency spikes don't seem to increase my casting beyond maybe 100ms. My damage is far more heavily impacted by my framerate than my slightly erratic, 100-250ms ping.

 

Waagaa

With Quartz and the spell queue it's possible to remove most of the "lag" from the equation. I just wanted it in there so that the effect of latency is touched on. Reaction time and latency is a factor for casters when it comes to getting full benefit from heroism, while for example rogues get their benefit for no extra effort other than spending the extra energy from CP.