You calculated dps for a 5 minute fight. M'uru has a 10 minute enrage timer.
It doesn't work that way. You don't just sit there and spam at one target the entire 10 minutes. Depending on what role you have, you may need to burn adds, stagger your CDs, AoE, etc.
Just a few replies, my point about IV and AB damage is that AB operates on a damage compression component, it will hurt your DPS if it drops off during IV, but I forgot to mention coldsnap+IV.
Assuming you squeeze all you can out of IV it compensates for a drop off else where.
AB drop off only significantly affect DPS if
1: Your haven't dumped enough mana and a pot timer comes up forcing you to not put pot on cooldown
2: AB falls off during AP/IV
3: The boss dies before you reach zero mana
My point about AB drop off-vs-DPS s that AB drops off due to stop spell casting. Stop casting by and large, will affect any casters DPS.
I made a point about gear and someone made a counter point that in Sunwell Arcane and Fire, as well as DPS in general compete for the same gear, just looking at robes
I made a point about gear and someone made a counter point that in Sunwell Arcane and Fire, as well as DPS in general compete for the same gear, just looking at robes
I'm not exactly sure where to put this but here it goes:
Clear casting channeled spells (arcane missiles or blizzard) triggers the 5 second rule.
I've figure I could mention this since I've seen people mention that you can use clear casting on arcane missiles and get some full mana regen in, when in fact, it doesn't work that way. I don't know if this is a bug or why people don't know it works this way but it does.
I'm not exactly sure where to put this but here it goes:
Clear casting channeled spells (arcane missiles or blizzard) triggers the 5 second rule.
I've figure I could mention this since I've seen people mention that you can use clear casting on arcane missiles and get some full mana regen in, when in fact, it doesn't work that way. I don't know if this is a bug or why people don't know it works this way but it does.
It has always worked this way, people just aren't informed.
Well, let's imagine for a second your ignites always rolled like this, the question thus becomes is it worth it?
So, i'll attempt to answer it with this example of our very own Manly's "record" brutallus dps of 2445. Wow Web Stats
If his ignite did 58.2% instead of the expected 40%, he would have done 65,596 extra damage, or 2645 dps.
That's 200 dps more on an attempt he got 42% crit just because he could('ve) roll(ed) his own ignites.
Or in Layman's terms, 8.17% dps more with a 42% crit rate just if ignites roll.
Discussion
Q: Is a perfect hasted set really viable?
A: Maybe. personal tests indicate you have to get your fireball to within a .01 second, or ~10-15 haste at that level. This means if you get heroism, if you get drums (or depend on it and lose it), etc. any time not spent during that perfect range and you've lost your rolling ignite. Any pushback and you've lost your rolling ignite (although conc aura and icy veins negate it). Can be touchy.
Q: What if i just want to roll ignites during cooldowns?
A: This, suprisingly, is very possible. All you have to do if you can't reach the correct amount of base haste (640 was it?), you just have to have around ~313 haste when you pop icy veins, or ~138 haste base on your gear and pop skull of gul'dan.
OR
Get ~233 haste base on your gear, pop icy veins and drums, and you're also back in rolling range.
That said if you only roll it some of the time you only get that much extra % of rolling ignite respectively
In conclusion if you aim for ignite range you're getting 4-10% or so extra damage, this does however not take into consideration the fact that crit gets exponentially better as you stack it (though quite slowly... however theorertically at 100% crit your ignites stack into infinity). Something to chew on.
The nice thing with rolling ignites is how they work well with Combustion, which aside from it's rolling synergy has been getting worse and worse with each passing patch.
I'd like to examine the relative viability of non-rolling hex-head/skull combo using the familiar "Hex+ flamecap+ Comb, then IV+ Destropot+ Skull" staggering versus perhaps "hex+ flamecap, then Destopot+ Comb+ Skull+ IV+ Just enough haste to get rolling" and see if we can combine absolutely everything under the sun to make a massive roll.
I'm not exactly sure where to put this but here it goes:
Clear casting channeled spells (arcane missiles or blizzard) triggers the 5 second rule.
I've figure I could mention this since I've seen people mention that you can use clear casting on arcane missiles and get some full mana regen in, when in fact, it doesn't work that way. I don't know if this is a bug or why people don't know it works this way but it does.
It has always worked this way, people just aren't informed.
This is wrong. Clear casting channeled spells does NOT trigger the 5-second-rule. However, you cannot under the current game mechanics get "normal" (out of FSR) mana regeneration while channeling a spell with a base mana cost. That applies to arcane missiles as it does to blizzard or mind control, but it's not directly obvious for arcane missiles as the 5s cast time coincides with the 5s you have to spend without casting to get full out of FSR regeneration again.
If you cast clearcasted arcane missiles, you are out of the FSR, but you gain only "combat" mana regeneration because you are currently channeling. If you cancel your clearcasted arcane missiles after 0.1s of channeling, your next tick will be full out of FSR mana regeneration. If your clearcasted arcane missiles for example last only 2.5s due to haste, you will also gain full out of FSR mana regeneration while casting your next spell (e.g. frostbolt), if it is not a channeling spell like AM or Blizzard again.
Your results match almost exactly mines. I assume that using fireballs has no real impact on the results, but typically for pure testing reasons I try and avoid them. In my testing I found the window seemed to be roughly 2.07-2.11 for it to work. You can get it to roll outside of those values, but it was fairly inconsistent.
I was thinking about this, maybe the implied delay for adding debuffs also applies for removing debuffs. It would explain the combustion->flamestrike->blastwave behavior amongst other things. It could probably have some potentially unthinked uses if that turns out to be true. However, I am unsure how to test it. I wonder if doing combustion (stack to 10, with 1 charge left), then scorch/fireblast, and see if both spells are 100% crit ? Or maybe the test is very flawed because possibly combustion is wonky and doesn't gets removed until the ignite gets applied (ie: it will be affected by the ignite application delay, which would affect indirectly debuff removal in this case).
Well, let's imagine for a second your ignites always rolled like this, the question thus becomes is it worth it?
So, i'll attempt to answer it with this example of our very own Manly's "record" brutallus dps of 2445. Wow Web Stats
If his ignite did 58.2% instead of the expected 40%, he would have done 65,596 extra damage, or 2645 dps.
That's 200 dps more on an attempt he got 42% crit just because he could('ve) roll(ed) his own ignites.
Or in Layman's terms, 8.17% dps more with a 42% crit rate just if ignites roll.
Except that it's not 200 more dps, I'm sure that even with his 42% crit rate there were crits that occured in isolation that would only give up a 40% ignite tick and not have any sort of rolling type behavior. You are taking a behavior that occurs in isolated instances and attempting to apply it universally to the entirety of that parse.
On top of that, based on the rest of your findings rolling ignites is a very fickle mechanic. Since it only rolls at exactly 2.09s you really are only getting the rolls to occur when Icy Veins and Bloodlust and the Skull is active (so 20 seconds of rolling behavior out of a ~360 second parse) or if you set up with enough haste gear to get them rolling with just Icy Veins + Skull then you have to plan on not having them roll during Bloodlust since your Fireball will drop out of the ideal zone and will be too fast to cause the rolls. In any case you would only be rolling for 20 seconds during that 6 minute encounter which means you would get 9 Fireballs that could potentially roll not the 123 that Manly cast during that encounter.
Edited to add: I don't want to seem like I am trying to pull the rug out from under people or that I am opposed to ignites rolling, I just don't want anyone posting inflated numbers about the effectiveness of the mechanic. I've been here since the last time mages were thought of as being overpowered (Nax and the huge rolling ignites) and after suffering through the coefficient nerf and everything else that resulted from that the last thing I want the developers to do is to get it in their head that mages are outputting an excessive amount of dps.
On top of that, based on the rest of your findings rolling ignites is a very fickle mechanic. Since it only rolls at exactly 2.09s you really are only getting the rolls to occur when Icy Veins and Bloodlust and the Skull is active (so 20 seconds of rolling behavior out of a ~360 second parse) or if you set up with enough haste gear to get them rolling with just Icy Veins + Skull then you have to plan on not having them roll during Bloodlust since your Fireball will drop out of the ideal zone and will be too fast to cause the rolls. In any case you would only be rolling for 20 seconds during that 6 minute encounter which means you would get 9 Fireballs that could potentially roll not the 123 that Manly cast during that encounter.
You missed the part where 2.09s fireballs are possible without any cooldowns. So under the vast majority of the fight (ie: when not using skull or icy veins or bloodlust) this would be possible.
total haste (not counting gems): 436
gain from RY gems in Y sockets: 6 * 5 = +30 haste
gain from Y gems in Y sockets: 6 * 10 = +60 haste
gain from RY gems in RY sockets: 14 * 5 = +70 haste
gain from RY gems in R sockets + Y gems in Y sockets: 8 * 5 + 6 * 10 = +100 haste
(please note: these numbers ignore the extraneous B or Y socket from headpiece, and assumes CSD metagem req to also use a BY gem)
gain from MH swap only: +204 haste
gain from cloak + perma drums: +112 haste
-----
target: 684 haste (2.09s fireballs) - 436 haste (base set not counting gems) = 248 haste left to be gained somewhere
To get ~248 haste, we have 2 choices:
1- pure haste gems in all Y sockets and RY gem in R sockets (+100 haste), in addition to using a permanent drum rotation, and shroud of the highborne. It is still slightly behind in terms of needed haste, but enough for our purposes. This is somewhat impractical to require permanent drum rotation, but the option is there.
2- use the gladiator MH and gem RY in Y sockets (as I would have had done normally anyway). Drums will possibly mess up the timing, so we have 2 options to work around that;
2.1- not using drums (...)
2.2- run on the 'low-side' of haste, then make drums make you go slightly over the 248 target. 208 'normal' extra haste from base setup, which drums make you jump to 288 extra haste, both of which are OK. This is notably easy to do by dropping gloves of tyri's power for sunfire gloves.
2.3- use only drums in conjunction with your other cooldowns (skull notably). The whole setup is not functional during skull activation anyway, so just stack them as you normally would, and accept that during that time you will get a stacking ignite rather than a rolling ignite. Please note that you could also drum -> swap weapon and not really pay much of a cost for sub-optimal haste gear.
-----
All of those items, save for gloves of tyri's power (which really is a wash compared to sunfire gloves), in the first category are best-in-slots.
Also, you need 43.54% / 684 passive haste for 2.09s fireballs.
What to you think is going to happen when a mage posts a parse of them beating the snot out of a double-glaived rogue on a fight like Brutallus using rolling ignites? Cause now that you have shown that the technique is valid and the dps gain is credible it is now a certainty that it will happen.
Arcane Missile haste stacking with the MQG at least had some probability of being a valid technique simply due to the changes Blizzard had implemented that patch that made it actually work and the fact that the changes had made it through the PTR with mages showing that it worked and talking about it and the changes still being implemented.
This is a bit different. Plain and simple it's exploiting a loophole in the caster mechanics. This is especially evident in light of the small cast time window that makes it work in the first place. It's an interesting intellectual exercise but once you get it functioning on a normal basis (which you just showed that it can and will be done) don't be surprised when you get Fire mages nerfed to the same degree as what happened to Rogues and haste stacking with the Warglaives not too long ago.
What I would be most worried about is how they will close the loophole. Easiest fix would seem to be simply removing the stacking component of ignite completely. Sure that will screw over Firemage dps in PvE situations but it definitely seems easier to do (and less disruptive to the game as a whole) then to sit down and try to rework the whole casting mechanic so that it functions well enough to prevent the loophole in the first place.
The alternative theory would be that having ignites roll when cast from 2.09s fireballs was something put into the game by the developers intentionally......
What to you think is going to happen when a mage posts a parse of them beating the snot out of a double-glaived rogue on a fight like Brutallus using rolling ignites? Cause now that you have shown that the technique is valid and the dps gain is credible it is now a certainty that it will happen.
There's a big difference between the 2.2 AM abuse and rolling ignites. In order to get to a high enough passive haste level without jeopardizing your +spell damage and other stats, you basically need Sunwell level gear and *probably* a 2050 arena rating. The number of mages who have access to these gear requirements will constitute a small minority of the populace. The issue with the Arcane mage in 2.2 was that every mage with a meta-gem slot could do it; a larger proportion of the community was abusing it. Additionally, there is still an RNG factor with the rolling ignites (depending on when your crits occur). Even if a mage does beat the crap out of a double-warglaived rogue, it won't happen frequently. Finally, as you've mentioned in your post, it's going to be hard for Blizzard to close the loophole unless they change how their servers register spell hits/debuffs, or they nerf the crap out of ignite. I doubt they'll do the later, as that will effect the mage community more than a handful of mages posting rogue-like numbers on brutallus.
So I'm not terribly familiar with all the rolling ignite "mechanics" (or bug, whatever you want to call it) but I have been trying to keep up with this thread, and read most of the other thread. I have had another thought that I don't think I've see mentioned.
From what I understand, everyone is doing base calculations for getting the rolling effects off the first ignite tick. I think I saw somewhere a screenshot of someone actually getting a rolling ignite off the *second* ignite tick. If this is true, is there any kind of reliable way to get that to repeat? As I see it here is a possible scenario:
Assumptions:
-It takes ~1s for ignite debuff to appear, then ticks in 2s intergrals. So first ignite is at 3s, second is at 5s (numbers can be adjusted for more accurate numbers, I just don't remember if we ever came up with a set number for the delay)
-The ~2.1s cast fireballs work for rolling ignites because of the delay + travel time of fireball and causes consecutive crits to be almost on top of ignite ticks.
So basically, we want our second crit to land at the time of the second ignite tick. With 2.1s fireballs, I don't believe it will roll on the second tick because there is a flat 2s between ticks, aka no delay. I would assume then you need a longer cast time on your fireballs, somewhere in the vicinity of 2.3-2.4s maybe?
Again, this is based off the assumption that you can roll ignites off the second tick as well. So if I am wrong you can just ignore me as some crazy guy rambling. And of course it works on every-other fireball crits, not consecutive crits. I would think this would be doable with gear available now, but I have all of 5 spell haste right now since I haven't been raiding in quite awhile (I could check and see if I have my trusty mqg somewhere, but even then i'm not sure if i could test it).
The simpliest fix is to remove ignite dot and apply it directly as part of fireball. I'm sure everyone would highly rejoice of the change. Although you would want to make it explicit that the talent 'ignite' gives 210% crit rates total, which would be quite awkward to word out.
I would be extremely happy if my fireballs critted directly for 210%. It would have other small ramifications elsewhere, such as CSD, but overall I don't even think it would be a negative change. I don't think it would change much on the pvp front, except maybe giving arcane/fire too much burst ? To be honest I think its a wash but thats just me. I can't find any compelling reason to keep ignite the way it is -- all it does is induce frustration.
Without delving into repeating the stuff over, you can roll ignites on both the first and last tick. Travel time is mostly inconsequential, particularly given the standard assumption that both you and the boss doesn't move. It does comes into play when you scorch/fireblast but besides that the impact of it is rather minor.
There's a big difference between the 2.2 AM abuse and rolling ignites. In order to get to a high enough passive haste level without jeopardizing your +spell damage and other stats, you basically need Sunwell level gear and *probably* a 2050 arena rating. The number of mages who have access to these gear requirements will constitute a small minority of the populace. The issue with the Arcane mage in 2.2 was that every mage with a meta-gem slot could do it; a larger proportion of the community was abusing it. Additionally, there is still an RNG factor with the rolling ignites (depending on when your crits occur). Even if a mage does beat the crap out of a double-warglaived rogue, it won't happen frequently. Finally, as you've mentioned in your post, it's going to be hard for Blizzard to close the loophole unless they change how their servers register spell hits/debuffs, or they nerf the crap out of ignite. I doubt they'll do the later, as that will effect the mage community more than a handful of mages posting rogue-like numbers on brutallus.
The other difference was that a 2.2 AM abusing mage would still be well under the dps of warglaived rogues and barely equal to destro-locks. From what this is looking like Firemages will beat the tar outta both of those easily RNG or not.
Manly, 210% without any DoT being involved won't happen since the reason it is 210% is to offset the delay in having the damage applied and the chance that the ignite tick won't occur due to the thing dying or it being dispelled. They would most likely just make a bigger ignite tick overwrite a smaller one and then refresh the debuff with no stacking being involved. Sure it would hurt Firemage PvE dps but most likely wouldn't bring it down far enough for it to be considered subpar in relation to other classes and then they address the issue in some way shape or form in WoLK to make Fire work again as a spec.
Manly, 210% without any DoT being involved won't happen since the reason it is 210% is to offset the delay in having the damage applied and the chance that the ignite tick won't occur due to the thing dying or it being dispelled. They would most likely just make a bigger ignite tick overwrite a smaller one and then refresh the debuff with no stacking being involved. Sure it would hurt Firemage PvE dps but most likely wouldn't bring it down far enough for it to be considered subpar in relation to other classes and then they address the issue in some way shape or form in WoLK to make Fire work again as a spec.
What you say is highly debatable. That it has a higher than 200% crit rate counter-balanced by the fact it is delayed damage I can understand, but as far as PVE is concerned it is irrelevant. Or in other words, that 'downside' doesn't apply much in a PVE context (since bosses dispelling dots is v rare -- inexistant?). The other outstanding possible issue would be PVP, for which I don't really care at all about, but if I had to make a guess, fire is in dire need of help in PVP. I don't think that would change PVP - if at all - that players would not be able to dispell the ignite dot. If you want to argue for it, go ahead, but I am confident we both know that either side of the coin is very debatable. I could easily cite example of other classes that deal 200% crits with no delayed damage attached. And I know you would say that fire mages don't deserve 210% but rather 200% to match most of the other classes.
But again, I doubt anything will be done about it.
Without delving into repeating the stuff over, you can roll ignites on both the first and last tick.
Wouldn't striving for rolling off the second ignite still cause for different timing? In other words, couldn't there be two possible haste ratings that lets you somewhat regularly roll ignites? Most of the current timing/theorycrafting only works for the first ignite tick, unless I'm totally missing something.
So, I hate to be the guy that asks the fantastically stupid question, but I am new to the mage game and am intrigued but somewhat confused by the present rolling ignite discussion. I am not sure I have a full grip on _specifically_ what is meant by rolling an ignite, and hope that my question may have at least some merit in bringing others up to speed as well on what seems to be a relatively obscure mechanic.
How I gather blizzard intends ignite to work: Fireball 1 crits triggering the ignite dot. Then FB 2 crits. The tick damage from 1 and 2 is added until there has been enough ticks that the ignite from FB 1 would have expired, then ignite ticks out at the damage based just on FB 2. If this is wrong then I have been operating on incorrect assumptions from the start and am making an even bigger fool of myself than I was hoping for.
Now, Rolling ignites? Am I to understand that landing a FB at just the right moment can be beneficial how: causing the damage component of the first crit from not dropping off the ignite, causing the ignite damage to be calculated wrong (based on the FB damage and the simultaneous ignite tick?), triggering more ignite ticks than should occur somehow, or what?
Again I apologize for what must be an annoyingly elementary question for most of you. But there has been so much discussion of rolling ignites that searching the term gave me pages and pages of posts that all were discussing the topic, but without explaining the underlying assumptions. And I would very much like to be able to follow the current discussion.
What you say is highly debatable. That it has a higher than 200% crit rate counter-balanced by the fact it is delayed damage I can understand, but as far as PVE is concerned it is irrelevant. Or in other words, that 'downside' doesn't apply much in a PVE context (since bosses dispelling dots is v rare -- inexistant?). The other outstanding possible issue would be PVP, for which I don't really care at all about, but if I had to make a guess, fire is in dire need of help in PVP. I don't think that would change PVP - if at all - that players would not be able to dispell the ignite dot. If you want to argue for it, go ahead, but I am confident we both know that either side of the coin is very debatable. I could easily cite example of other classes that deal 200% crits with no delayed damage attached. And I know you would say that fire mages don't deserve 210% but rather 200% to match most of the other classes.
But again, I doubt anything will be done about it.
Can't balance the game in absencia.
210% crits upfront for ignite ain't gonna happen ever.
PvE reason against - 210% is balanced by the thing dying before the ignite has a chance to tick through - happens on both bosses and on trash. Also balanced by the very real danger that ignite can present if it happens to tick after an aggro reset.
PvP reason against - AP + PoM + Pyro from a mage with 2/2 Spellpower
An Ignite debuff is supposed to do, lets say, X damage (where X is 40% of what the crit fireball hit for). It's expected to tick twice, so has 2 ticks for X/2.
Then suppose that another fireball crits after the first one has ticked once. That one is supposed to do Y damage (where Y is 40% of what the 2nd crit fireball hit for). But there's already an ignite on the target, with X/2 damage remaining on it. So, that X/2 damage is added to the new ignite, which replaces the old one. So the X ignite is dropped, and a new ignite is applied, which does Y+X/2 damage total, or rather Y/2+X/4 per tick. In the end, a total of X+Y damage is done, which is what is intended.
That's what's supposed to happen, anyway. Rolling Ignites is when we use a bug to roll more of the previous ignite into the next one than is intended. For example, if we hit fireball Y right as ignite X is about to have its first tick, it thinks that no ticks have happened yet, so adds the full damage of ignite X into ignite Y, then X ticks, then Y is applied. That results in a total damage done of 3X/2+Y damage done, ie an extra X/2.
210% crits upfront for ignite ain't gonna happen ever.
PvE reason against - 210% is balanced by the thing dying before the ignite has a chance to tick through - happens on both bosses and on trash. Also balanced by the very real danger that ignite can present if it happens to tick after an aggro reset.
PvP reason against - AP + PoM + Pyro from a mage with 2/2 Spellpower
By using your logic, arcane/frost frostbolt crits are overpowered in a PVE context.
210% crits upfront for ignite ain't gonna happen ever.
PvE reason against - 210% is balanced by the thing dying before the ignite has a chance to tick through - happens on both bosses and on trash. Also balanced by the very real danger that ignite can present if it happens to tick after an aggro reset.
PvP reason against - AP + PoM + Pyro from a mage with 2/2 Spellpower
I completely disagree with this - somehow warlocks are balanced with 200% instantaneous crits along with a 20% bonus from Improved Shadow Bolt, this gives them 240% crits on subsequent crits, and no one is complaining that Warlocks do overpowered burst damage in pvp.
I would argue that the reason ignite is 210% helps to make Fire Mage crit benefit somewhat more comparable to Warlocks, if you just removed it and made it 200% straight up, that would simply be worse in every way, which makes no sense.
It seems to me that you could re-implement Ignite as an instantaneous seperate-damage proc and it would not be especially unbalanced. It isn't like Fire Mages are tearing up the pvp statistics in the first place, this change would make their burst damage a little scarier, but so what? Frost would still have more reliable and better burst in terms of Shatter Combo anyway.
<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl
The only reason you saw it tick off the second ignite tick vs the first one was because the fireball on the first ignite didn't crit. Ignite ticks in 2s intervals after it's been applied, so if I would have waited for the second ignite dot PURPOSELY to try and get rolling ignite effect, I would have completely missed 1 fireball's worth of damage. In order to get it to go only off the second ignite, you'd have to be at 2.09s fireball+2s to get it on the second rather than the first, which is a significant dps loss as well as pointless.
05/06/08, 7:50 PM
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