Searix

The mana per 5 is horrid. Don't use it, and it caps at 20 stacks.

 

Mynak

The fact that Skull doesn't stack anymore with other trinkets really interests me in what would be the best trinket combo in game now. I see on the armory that Manly still has the Skull/Hex combo, but is the use of Serpent-Coil Braid at the cost of a Flame Cap worth it to have the haste and extra damage at the same time? Also, assuming the use of Skull/Hex still, would it be better to use Skull during IV or use it after IV+Hex?

Last thing, while looking at some of the Nihilum mages on the armory i saw Darmor with a not so textbook spec.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Would those few dropped points in fire actually be outweighed by the use of 2 IVs back to back?

 

• Nurru

Seriously, read the existing threads. 0/40/21 is discussed in them.

19:31 <@Zyla> I fuck like a gorilla
19:31 <@Zyla> wait
19:31 <@Zyla> wrong chat room

 

Soraxis

Yeah not that much is lost with that spec, he loses out on a bit of incinerate so when he's scorching isnt doing quite as much damage as otherwise, this isnt a big deal because scorch isnt our source of DPS. My main beef with that is 2/3 master of elements instead of 3/3, of course if he has good enough gear or a good enough S-priest that he doesnt need all that mana, yeah definetly nothing wrong with going for C/S.

"Time is like a monkey, you think its there and then its gone eating a banana."

 

Raistin

Skull pulls way ahead when using Flame caps and Destruction potions. My understanding at least is to combine Flame Cap/Hex/Combustion, then Skull/Destropot/IV for the second half the Flame Cap. Ideally all with a BLust as well.

However, if the fight doesn't allow you to use a Flamecap, SCB pulls ahead.

 

Raencloud

Kavan, when I'm modeling the 40/0/21 spec in a 6 minute fight in Rawr, I'm getting that spinels > pyrestones > lionseye. What are you doing to get int gems outdoing everything else? In my model, it's showing that the only difference between gemming fire vs 40/0/21 is that crit/dmg pyrestones are slightly better than the haste/dmg pyrestones for arcane, and dazzling seaspray emeralds become the best option for blue gems. In looking at total dmg, switching all yellow slots to 10 int, I end up losing about 5 dps.

 

Kavan

Yea I'm just imported your profile and set spec to 40/0/21 and it's giving interesting results. It's actually suggesting to use destro pots, molten armor and not using evocation. My guess is that since you don't have 2T5 Arcane Blast is not worth it and apart from some minimal use during cooldown stacking it doesn't even use Arcane Blast. As soon as I equip 2T5 int shoots very high.

 

maegsen

Since skull is not stacking with other triggerable trinkets anymore i wonder how powerful [Mark of the Champion] has become combined with skull.

 

Pitbuller

I'm not saying use rotation all the time. I said ab spam till oom and then use 3*fb + 1*ab. Its better dps and dpm than frostbolt spam.

Using Man Out of Time - Theorycraft-o-Matic
3,451.60 damage per Arcane Blast / single cast
Manacost 195*1.2 = 234
With one debuff dps is 3451.6 / (2.5 -0.334) = 1593.53dps

3,705.13 damage per Frostbolt (2.50 seconds)
Manacost 330 * 0.85 = 280.5
DPS 3705.13 /2.5 = 1482.052

So clearly 3*fb + 1*ab is better than frostbolt spam. Both mana and dps.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Raencloud

Well, I was accounting for switching to T5 Helm and Shoulders (unfortunately I skipped over all of t5 so I will have to go back and get it), and even though intellect shoots up, the other gems were still slightly better. Socketing for int wasn't hurting me that much (like I said, it was like 5 dps difference overall), but nonetheless I thought it was strange.


I am also curious about the rotation as well. Everyone here is saying you should AB spam, then frostbolt until you get some mana back (generally till you can potion?) and then AB spam again. To me it seems like you will be loosing DPS by using just frostbolt, as opposed to a rotation with AB in it. Rawr seems to agree, telling me to AB spam, then use (ABFrB)x3FrBx2.

 

• Nurru

It should be about the same as a [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] in ideal situations, slightly better otherwise.

19:31 <@Zyla> I fuck like a gorilla
19:31 <@Zyla> wait
19:31 <@Zyla> wrong chat room

 

Apokalypz

Which Meta Gem is better for 40/0/21? Ember Skyfire Diamond (14 Spell Dmg/2% Int) or Chaotic Skyfire Diamond (12 Spell Crit/3% Increased Crit Dmg)?

 

Anedris

This is not the "help me with my gear" thread. You want the 'Mage - Help Me Please" thread.

 

-Thaddaeus-

I'm curious how mage armor fits into the equation for 40/0/21. On paper, at least, Mage armor allows you to spam AB longer before switching to frostbolts, but is it enough to justify the DPS loss from not using Molten Armor? Assuming you have access to a shadow priest.

 

Roywyn

Using my current T6 gear and a brutallus fight/party/buff (fire+IV) setting with Skull as 2nd trinket, it looks like this for the 1st trinket slot:
Hex - 91, (Skull - 89; it's unique), MotChamp - 84, DMCrus - 79, Quag's - 71, Icon - 70, Sextant - 68, Mag's Eye - 60

Using a non-clicky trinket in slot 2 (47 dmg PvP trinket) and stealing some spell hit elsewhere (JC ring, to cap), it looks like this for slot 1:
Hex - 96, Skull - 94, MotChamp - 82, DMCrus - 77, Icon - 74, Quag's - 70, Sextant - 66, Mag's Eye - 59


So, the first clicky trinket you equip performs like 4-6 damage better than average from stacking cooldowns.
Thus, while noticable, the difference isn't as big as one might have expected it. It is slight shift in favour of static trinkets, but it doesn't change the rank of trinkets unless they were about equal to begin with.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput
This assumes Rune of Razorice and Slow for Torment unless noted as "No TtW".
More detailed at http://elitistjerks.com/923110-post2775.html

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.

 

Soraxis

I thought a bit about this question and I think I've got at least a reasonable answer, the way I like to go about stuff like this is instead of figuring out damage per 1 spellcast on average after taking crit and stuff, I calculate on a 60 or 120 second basis and that helps me figure out numbers when there are different buffs with different timers and stuff like that involved...heres how I would work it.

So with IV/BL together I'd see how many spellcasts of frostbolt I'd get with them both stacked, then count the AB casts with bloodlust left over and then just however many AB casts would be left over at the end. Compare those numbers with how many AB casts you get with bloodlust and icy veins chained one after another, divided by 60 (presuming we're counting for only 1 minute) and compare their DPS. These numbers are presuming there is 0 spell haste involved, if there were it wouldnt be too hard to recalculate the denominators by each number after spell haste is taken into account to determine how often spells are cast.

20/1.25*Frostbolt+20/1.05*AB+20/1.5*AB=Damage with both stacked

40/1.05*AB+20/1.2*AB=Damage with IV and BL one after another

If I were to put in numbers (taken from vontres spreadsheet) it looks like I'd get this...

20/1.25*1212+20/1.05*1607+20/1.5*1607=71428.19048


40/1.05*1607+20/1.2*1607=88002.38095

Obviously there are a few things missing from this, A) it doesnt take into account haste, with different haste ratings the frostbolts and arcane blasts per period would fluctuate, I can rewrite the equations to include haste however if it looks like the theory is on track. B) It doesnt take into account your current mana pool, lets say for example the shaman puts bloodlust on and you dont think you can sustain 1 minute of ABs with what mana you have left and that increased casting rate, you would then probably want to start frostbolt spamming even though its worse DPS simply because you wont run out of mana by the end of it and thus have potentially better DPS than the arcane variation. I think if that were necessary I could run a calculation by figuring out how much net mana each method would use up and after taking mana regen and stuff into account how much mana is available for the 60 second period. C) I dont think trinkets are figured into that equation, after they are thrown in there I would imagine that the frost DPS would look better than it does now in comparison to the AB version, I have no numbers to back that theory up though.

Anyway...thats pretty much that, what do you all think?

"Time is like a monkey, you think its there and then its gone eating a banana."

 

Ahramis

The changes to Arcane Meditation and Spirit mechanics make mage armor invaluable. I was old-school arcane before patch 2.3 (3 AB 1 AM 1 scorch spec 47/11/3) and after the patch changes, 373 mp5 is where I sit with only my current gear level in raid buffs. Remember the purpose of switching to frostbolt spam is to allow you to regenerate mana quickly.

With mage armor on, not only is your AB spam time extended but your frostbolt time is truncated to keep you on the high dps side. If you look at the mana cost of frostbolt: 272 mana per cast (with frost channeling and 2 casts per 5seconds assuming no haste in this model) that's -544 mp5 while you regenerate well over half of that factor on your own mana regeneration alone. If you chain mana pot as you should, your mana regen is increased by 1800 - 3000 mp120 seconds = 75 - 125 mp5 and if you chain gem as well your mana is increased by approximately 120 mp5 (assuming you have serpent coil braid) this brings my self-sufficient mp5 for the first 6 minutes of a fight to 373 + 120 + 75 (assuming worst potion luck) = 568 mp5.

With mage armor on, I can regenerate mana without reliance on a shadow priest or shaman totems while spamming frostbolt at approximately 24 mp5 while still dpsing the boss. Any mana incoming from your shadow priest and shaman (assuming you are in range of mana stream totem) are pure profit on top of your own self-sufficience, and you could refill your mana bar remarkably fast to return to AB spamming it back down.

 

◊ manly

0/40/21 has got nothing to do with TC - its a spec you take for the Eredar Twins. Double IB really matters in that fight.

 

Volarun

How much of a dps loss would there be for going into that spec? We have only had one full night on the twins because of attendance problems, and I am looking for any way that will make the fight easier.

 

Jarlyn

We're on our third-ish night of full attempts on them, and I do see the merits of 0/40/21. It's not just double IB, which is almost worth it by itself, but double IV with Pyrogenics active is a lot of DPS, particularly given the first 3min (when you'd have double IV active) is the most crucial. New raid week incoming, but I think I might try once we're through Felmyst again.

As far as DPS lost... I'd do it with one point out of Playing with Fire, one point out of Emp. Fireball. Assuming 1600-ish damage raid buffed, that's -1% damage done and -3% of the coefficient from Fireball, or about 50 spell damage. As I mentioned though, double IV with Pyrogenics should easily overcome that. It would be a DPS loss for P2, but given that P2 is the easy (ish, anyway) part of the fight, the damage loss wouldn't be especially relevant.

 

Ahramis

I think the really pertinent response to if 0/40/21 is a DPS loss on twins is, "You do 0 damage when you are dead". Remember the whole point is 2x IB.

 

galzohar

While I wouldn't be very surprised if this ended up as theoretically better than just keeping the debuff up while spamming frostbolts, in practice it's a lot easier to refresh your debuff in time than to cast that "first" (in the way you listed the rotation) AB so that it lands after the debuff wears off but starts casting when it's still active. But if it's theoretically a DPS gain it's worth looking into - when it can actually be done it gives you the medium dps medium dpm ABs mixed in with low dps high dpm frostbolts rather than just AB spam + frostbolt spam (with the AB spam and frostbolt spam being mixed a little to take the ramp-up time out of the equasion).

When the rotation is practical to perform without losing DPS for 2.5s cast ABs that will happen when you mess it up, it'll be worth using over frostbolts if (and I've done some math equasions to make sure it is always true) the extra DPS per extra MPS of AB spamming VS rotations is smaller than the extra DPS per extra MPS of AB spamming VS frostbolt spamming.

This is obviously assuming the fight is short enough (as in you have enough mana) for AB rotations to never make you go oom when used alone (no AB spamming and no frostbolts) - otherwise you'd have to compare rotations+frostbolts to spamming+frostbolts instead (in a similar manner) - but as far as I know this never happens seeing the AB spam uptime people keep up.

 

KamiCrazy

Why would you want to take out 1 point in emp fireball? I don't see where else you could spend that point to make the fight better.

 

jula