◊ manly

Based on empyrical evidence, pyroblast makes up for 35-40% of my phase 1 DPS.

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bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Dorvan

I'm pretty sure discussion of the Mu'ru encounter on these boards is still verboten

 

◊ manly

I'm not spoiling in any way how the fight works, or how to do the boss.

Log on with different model:
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bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Hate Monkey

And of course that is strategy dependent, so until the discussion for that fight is opened up, a pretty moot point of discussion.

Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. But anger is like fire. It burns it all clean.

 

ainav

We are not discussing the boss strategy at all. The point for me to ask this is something else and since you are here Monkey I can as well ask you..
Is there a way to "abuse" all those instant pyros(gaining ultra high ignite ticks) ?
Of course point only game mechanics as we don't want to spoil the encounter for everyone else revealing our secret strategy

 

• Intermission

Mentioning the fact that mages can spellsteal a buff is as much 'discussing an encouter' as claiming a shaman can cast chain heal.

 

Papajan

In response to the Pyroblast line of reasoning, it may be viable to use Pyro as the last spell as haste cooldowns are running out if you won't need to use Evo at that point. I did the math a while ago and dismissed it, but I think that was before Icy Veins. You're looking at Pyro on one hand, taking 6 / (1 + haste%) time and a Fireball and fractional Fireball on the other hand in the same amount of time. The number of Fireballs you get in the same time as the hasted Pyro is (1 + 1 / (1 + haste)) unless I've made a major error. (The cast time constants drop out cause Pyro is 6s and Fireball 3s.)

If the spell coefficient thread is right for 1.35 as the Pyro coefficient (I had thought it was 6/3.5, maybe it got nerfed when I wasn't looking.), then it looks like you'd need 88% bonus haste about to fade to make hasted Pyro worthwhile over a hasted Fireball and partial normal Fireball. It might be 87% or a tad lower if you count the extra tick or two from the previous Fireball, so even with IV/PI/Heroism all synced to run out at the same time, it'd basically be a wash. I ran those numbers with 1200 +damage; you only need more haste as you go up.

Edit: found a bug where the base damage from the Pyro DoT was double-counted. Correcting that brings the break-even point up to 168-169% from the expiring haste buffs, which is very much not possible at the moment. Counting the differing amount of Fireball ticks between the two, the break-even point is around 159-160% haste.

 

Roywyn

With 40% crit, the Pyro coefficient is equivalent 128.6% since the DoT part of Pyro can't crit (115% DD, 20% DoT, 20%/(1+1.163*40%)=13.6%).

Also, 1200 damage is really low, considering you get ~250 from totem/consumables.
Seeing that you can get up to 1450-1500 raid buffed with crafted and badge loot (no sunmotes), 1500 seems a bit more reasonable.

Could you maybe redo your numbers with the adjusted Pyro coefficient and and ~1500 fire damage?

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Elut

None of this matters much. Non-POM pyroblast is a huge DPS loss with or without your corrections. With your numbers, Fireball is about 44% better DPS than Pyroblast (assuming full ticks).

At the end of a big haste effect - say 30% Bloodlust - you need to compare 1 hasted pyro to 1 hasted fireball + 76% of a second unhasted fireball (that's how much haste time you are "losing" by not using the pyro).

If the pyroblast has a base DPS of X:

1) One hasted Pyro dps = 1.3X
2) One hasted Fireball + 75 of an unhasted = [(1.44 * 1.3X) + (1.44 X * 0.76)] / 1.76 = 1.68 X

Even at the end of Bloodlust staying with Fireball spam is 1.68/1.3 = 129% the damage of mixing in a single Pyro. In order for this trick to improve DPS you need to drop your spelldam to +190. I'm not kidding - one hundred ninety.

 

Papajan

I accidentally double-counted the base damage of the Pyro DoT before, and even that small (356) amount of damage completely changed the picture from being reasonable in extreme situations (87% ish) to being completely unreasonable (159% or more). I also updated the figures above and included the differing amount of Fireball ticks you get between the two.

The crit thing was a good call since the DoTs are relevant. When I add in 40% crit on both sides of the DD and up the +damage to 1500, the break-even point is 271-272% haste from buffs, as if it weren't already impossible enough. (Fireball is well capped to 1s GCD by this point)

So there we go, now if someone asks me if it's better to use that final cast of BL/IV/PI for Pyro over Fireball, I can point them to the numbers.

 

Hate Monkey

Not reliably. It's the same reason behind the whole discussion on the Rolling Ignites. And because I forget, do buffed instants get a 1.5s GCD or 1s GCD? But anyways, a G15 might help here, not sure.

If we could on command, make a rolling ignite happen, then there would be something else to be discussed at this point.

Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. But anger is like fire. It burns it all clean.

 

Rouncer

One thing I did notice while playing around with Dr Boom and the combat logs today was that even using Quartz and timing casts I did much much better just setting the G15 to spam the key and to start spamming the request early.

I'm pretty sure that buffed instants use your base GCD which already incorporates your spell haste into it.

 

Cornelium

Hey Ossi. While the argument of A/F vs Fire is probably the hottest one at the moment (not the most clever tho), and i have to agree with you that sometimes people just read what favours their points, AND ultimately that A/F has different (probably harder) mechanics than fire, possibly making it funnier for some people (like me)...
...i have to say you are completely mistaken about this thread (i think we could even just say EJ forums). People don't come here and discuss about TC with others in order to teach the masses how to play mage. It's not a matter of showing off who's the most clever/witty/know-it-al/whatever mage. They come here to compare their knowledge and refine it in order to get closer to "complete knowledge".

In other words, you are allowed to read, and to give your imput. But it's not up to you to decide in which way people should contribute (if we exclude, of course, forum guidelines).

PS: Most caring posters on these boards usually refer to something only after it's been proven with both theories and empirical evidences. Sometimes it's hard to spot the reference, but after some time you'll get to know where they are taking their words from.

Make love, not war!

 

Searix

I dont know about you guys, but why doesn't anyone consider 33/28/0 anymore? It's leaps and bounds better than 40/18/3, and does the same dps as 2/48/11 (~50 dps less according to rawr, which doesn't consider Pom pyroing during AP)

 

Finkum

I don't see how this can be (generally) true. It was established a long time ago that 33/28 was suboptimal, partly because it scales primarily with crit, which has the worst rating to percent conversion ratio of the three dps rating stats that mages are concerned with.

Given the advent of plentiful spell haste gear and recently spell haste/spell damage gems, end-game geared mages will not have significantly higher crit rates than they did back at the t5/early t6 level when spell haste featured as a novelty proc only.

Of course, you could be talking about using the spec for the Mu'ru fight specifcally, but if so this was not at all clear :P

 

Pintofbrew

Holy baloney, Batman! That's the weirdest shit I've ever seen. After a year chanting "33.28.0 is dead... 33.28.0 is dead..." like a headless zombie, Rawr is coming up with either a bug, or a true potential contender?

The challenge of course is keeping enough hit rate to cap without Ele. Pre. without looking like a gimp. Back on goes ol' belt of blasting.

Fireblast becomes a possibility because there's not Emp. FiBall and also because spellpower-ignited crits make fireblast's 4% crit surplus more valuable than before. Rawr seems to prefer weaving Fireblast in as soon as it's off cooldown. Curiously, this (for my sim) comes out as 2200 with 0/3 imp. blast, 2188 with 1/3, then back to 2201 for 2/3 and 2203 for 3/3. Clearly this inidcates: (1) there's little point in any imp blast (2) further optimization is needed.

Also, we should examine the overall effect of PoM-Pyro each cooldown, and whether or not it's a good idea to go all-CDs->pom-pyro->Fireblast, or whether that endangers the subsequent Ignite or not for certain.

 

Searix

I compared 33/28/0 to 2/48/11 using the Rawr add-on.

Without moonkin, and without an ele sham, 2/48/11 was about 30 dps higher than 33/28/0. However, upon adding a boomkin and an ele sham to the equation (something our guild consistently has in the same group, and something im consistently in), the mod reports 33/28 as being 50 dps higher, without properly modeling the bonus pom pyroing is during ap, and does consider heroisming during molten fury range.

 

Pintofbrew

Searix, is there perhaps a chance Rawr is wrongly handling assumptions of Molten Fury and giving skewed results?

 

Searix

Is there a chance? Of course. Personal anecdotal evidence from early hyjal days was it was exactly on par with 2/48/11. With the new gear, a weapon that can put you way over hit cap (Felmyst staff), 2 stacking damage trinkets (Serpent/Hex) that both directly are added to Pom Pyroblast damage, i am personally thinking it may be time to seriously reconsider the highest damage spec.

 

Pintofbrew

I'm not sold over the SCB-Hex idea. God knows I'm a massive SCB fan but will that extra 175 damage over 15sec really be more than +80 over 60? Because if it's all working to pump the Pyro then we're probably looking at dropping the Hex CD to 3m as well to time the second one with it too.

 

Searix

It's 225 over 15, not 175. Do realize that during the AP/destruction potion, basically anything you pop is 1.32 times as good as usual. Not only that, but pyro gets (iirc) 175% of your +spell damage.

 

Pintofbrew

it's 225, which is 175 plus the 80 you get anyway with flamecaps. For the purposes of CD stacking, it's another 175 during AP vs +80 over 5sec of Hex plus 40sec of +80 with no other CDs. Also account: I believe the 175% is including the DOT, while it is still relevant it also means the DOT portion can't crit. Off the top of my head it's something like 125% spell frontload and another 50% on DOT, or some malarkey like that.

 

Wizeowel

I used 33/28/0 for all of TBC up to and including Illidan. Indeed plenty of calls that 33/28/0 was dead, as Pint says, but I think that's because people analysed it from the point of view of spamming scorch and wearing TLC, or using some rotation like AB3Sc4, or even suggesting that fireball should be its main nuke! The spec always did work as an AB spam spec, and using scorch as filler with MoE was already mana positive long before patch 2.4 or even before having a spriest in group). Not to forget scorch saved the other lazy mages from having to remember to keep up fire vulnerability themselves.

But since 2.4, if you are going to spec arcane, better go with 40/0/21. Moreover, once you get past Brutallus caster gear much favours 2/48/11 again.

 

maxi

Somehow, i don't really trust rawr :/. The creator did an awesome job, of course, but i am still a big fan of good ol' number crunching.

Let's approach this question with some proper mathcraft.

Compared to 2/48/11, 33/28/0

LOSES:
Ele. Precision
Icy Veins
2/5 Fire Power
Playing with Fire
Combustion
Molten Fury
Pyromaniac
Empowered Fireball
Dragon's Breath

GAINS:
Arcane Focus
Arcane Concentration
Arcane Impact
Magic Attunement
Arcane Meditation
4/5 Arcane Mind
Presence of Mind
Arcane Instability
2/3 Arcane Potency
Arcane Power
Spell Power

If we assume clearcasting as 10% mana effectiveness boost, and arcane potency as 1% crit per point, these talents translate into the following following stat changes:

LOSSES:
3% fire hit
4% fire power
15% extra +damage on fireball
3 min cds - IV, Combustion
Molten Fury

GAINS:
10% arcane hit
2% crit (arcane potency plus arcane instability minus pyromaniac)
+40% critical strike bonus
3 min cooldowns - AP, PoM
Mana
+8% Intellect
15% Spirit regen
4% mana (clearcasting minus Pyromaniac, minus Precision)
Misc
3% damage not taken
Magic Attunement

If we assume Molten Fury to be effective 15% of the fight, then i daresay that Arcane Power with PoM pyro combined are worse than Molten Fury, unless the fight lasts around 200 seconds, and you time your APs perfectly for 30 sec useful uptime. So we can conclude Molten Fury and AP/PoM cancel each other out.

Having said all that, we get this list of gains and losses, without mana and misc stuffs.

LOSSES
3% fire hit
4% fire power
Empowered Fireball
IV, Combustion

GAINS
10% arcane hit
2% crit
Spell Power

So we get far stronger arcane, and potentially equal fire, depending on +damage (scales worse), critical strike % (scales better) and the use of cooldowns (favours fights where stacking cds to last 20% is hard). We also get more mana tools and a stronger amp/dampen magic. We don't get dragon's breath.

At the same time, the spec is highly dependent on having external crit buffs, and the the damage is more spikey, as opposed to smooth +damage boost provided by emp.fireball and "free" 36 hit rating from talents.

Not sure how well this spec scales with crit. If it makes it worthwhile to actually replace some +dam with crit rating, it might be good. But that's a very very long shot.

NUMEROUS EDITS: corrected some mistakes, pretty sure there are more, but i think i have arrived at a plausible general picture

 

Wizeowel

The point of Rawr.mage is that it calculates optimal spell cycles and estimated dps based on your exact gear and precise fight parameters. It does tend to overestimate, but that can be easily remedied by setting the latency option to a more realistic value. As with any modelling tool: garbage in, garbage out. I.e. if you just start it up, load your character from the armory and expect it to tell you which spec is best, that's not going to happen.

What Rawr doesn't do, that humans tend to, is make vague and generalised comparisons without considering any particular raiding level, and post these under the pretense of scientific evaluation in a theorycrafting thread.