Isn't this because ignite dot damage itself further amplified by improved scorch?

That was fixed in 2.0 with the whole ignite overhaul.

Ignite cannot be resisted, does not have partial resists, and is not affected by additionial damage modifiers or vulnerabilities or reductions (like shield wall).
No more Drakonids where your fireball hit for 3 times the damage and 9 times the ignite damage. Or 50k+ ticks on Thaddius.

If it doesn't bug out, Ignite is exactly 40% of your crit damage. The differences come from bugged rolling/stuttering ignites.

Hmm, I probably should have read and commented on this post last night.

Basically all the inconsistencies boil down to this: The delay from your initial crit to when the ignite debuff is placed.

This delay can be anywhere from .2s all the way to 1s. This is why a 2.3s cast can get a rolling ignite to happen, although it only will happen on the 2nd crit and never after. While a cast < 2.1s will cause rolling ignites, it will also pushback the original ignite tick to coincide with the rest of your casts to further "force" rolling ignites to happen.

I'm just waiting for someone to obtain the gear level needed to chain cast a 2.09s (what Manly says is needed) Fireball and really get a rolling ignite going, and see what kind of possible gains we get.

This goes right back to what I proposed a few months ago. We need a mod that tracks ignites. Not necessarily for TC purpose, but also for optimal play purpose. If we could single-out variables by having an aced ignite-tracking-mod and test across multiple mages, we could know for sure what tends to work best. Like, imagine a case where the mod would show you a bar for the next ignite tick is due, and what should be your casting adjustment to perform a rolling ignite.

Then that mod should integrate into quartz, and extract latency data from it, even possibly showing the ignite ticks directly on quartz casting bar.

Imagine something roughly
* 100ms would be determined by comparing the cast time left on current spell vs time to next ignite tick. The closer you get to 0 ms, the more you're in the optimal rolling ignite case.

Then from that mod we could work out and analyse/track if scorch/fireblast is worth doing. Or fireball/fireblast.

Something else occured to me, it should be worth buying the new spell haste dagger in s4, and using it to start evocate and switch to int weapon before first tick before switching to your main weapon.

It absolutely will be worth it. But can you make the rating?

As an aside, it'd be super OP back when we had to make bread and water before mage-table. Oh wait, come expansion we will have to again...

Better get the dust off them vengeful pads.

I'm assuming this will only be the case while levelling. I assume that at level 80 we'll get an upgraded table spell.

So as of now, you're saying that aside from the passive haste benefit, ignore all TC done on the use? Seems kind of wrong for a trinket of that level to do that, but oh well.

As a second thought to this post, has anyone seen a WWS parse of Ignites of greater than 50%?

I think Manly is planning on posting this as well but here is definitive proof that ignites roll from a run on Naxx yesterday.

Chain Bloodlusts on Manly's group and that spore buff and just take a look at the max ignite tick - 31789.

The other fire mage (Scullii) in that group had a max ignite of 4227 even though they both had the same group buffs and bloodlusts.

Wow Web Stats


What's really interesting, however, is that Gonktarget (Hunter with Legendary Bow) was only 200dps under Manly even including the rolling ignites and he only had one Bloodlust to Manly's three. Really looks to me like it's time to let ignites roll in a personal debuff stack.

100% off-topic, but: No partial resists at all in Naxx?
Is it that just a parsing error, or were there really no partial resists at all?
Seems odd since melee still had glancings and tanks still had crushings like expected against higher levels.

Dissecting the Loatheb parse
52 fireball crits, 6047 average (8 hits, 52 crits; 24 ticks of the fireball DoT, heh). 3 scorch crits, 2276 average.
Makes 314.444 + 6.828 = 321.272 crit damage.
40% of that makes an expected Ignite damage of 128.509. The actual Ignite damage in the parse was 127.597.

Wow Web Stats
Looks like at the end of the fight "Scorch the Tail!", only the ignite of a 2323 scorch crit (929 ignite) is missing.
There is also 1 Fire Blast crit against a spore for 2485 with no ignite, but I didn't count Fire Blast anyway.
Same for Molten Armour crits against those spores - there aren't any Ignite ticks against spores in the log, and I didn't count Molten Armour either.

So, we had Ignites for 127.597, and we miss 929 from the last scorch crit. Makes 128.526 total.
We expect from the logs to get 128.509. So we have a whole 17 more Ignite damage than expected.

Seventeen. Wow.

Conclusion
Sorry, no dice this time. The 31k tick is hot, but that's just normal behaviour really if you chain crit before Ignites can tick.


Edit: The average Fireball/Scorch crits displayed are rounded by WWS. Which causes an error of at most 55 (#crits*[+-1 error margin]), and an error margin for the Ignite damage of 55*0.4 = 22.
That explains our error of 17.

Well, that parse is really kind of messed up. First, I got a major lagspike at the end...you can see like 10s where I did not dps at all. Also, I don't think I could get a new spore buff due to the same reason.

The really interesting part would not be this. I do recall from the previous loathebs I did that it seemed like I was missing a lot of ignite ticks. Thing is, those were with just 1 lust. That parse above is almost 100% on bloodlust, which means I'm just stacking an ignite rather than rolling one (due to perma sub-2s fireballs). I was hoping the parse above could show up something, but unfortunately the perma bloodlust totally ruined it.

Also, on the unrelated topic of partial resists, you do raise a solid point there. Not a single mage got a partial. I will make a quick hypothesis here that the current TC is inaccurate (based on this parse), and that level-based resistances are actually based from the starting mob level, rather than the one up-scaled for higher level players. IE: the boss is considered lvl 63 as far as the non-hit part of the spell check goes.

Indeed, there may be more to it that we're missing. But it's also one of the ONLY perks of revisiting old raid content, aside from collecting good ol' gear sets of yesteryear and some extra coin.

Is it really that surprising that Blizz would forget to implement the partial resist/do it incorrectly and not care since the content is obsolete now? I'd say it's par for their course.

I did Loatheb today, and after a chain of crits for most of the fight, my ignite finally ticked for like 3000 damage. Not only did I not experience ignites rolling, but experienced ignites vanishing completely because my fireball was too quick.

Some bosses not having partial resists is nothing new. If you dig through the posts you'll see a number of "73" bosses also not being affected by this (for example Netherspite and Illhoof).

Yes, that is exactly what I was referring to when I said that all of my previous loatheb felt like ignites were missing. That something was not behaving as expected. I already have a good idea of the why, and I sincerely hope its not that.

Been looking at that parse a bit, and the one thing that you told me is that you were perma lusted and wore lots of spell haste, my question is this, what was your quartz bar saying your cast time was?

And your 31k ignite tick, that's a lot of possible lost rolling ignite damage, but I cannot seem to find out your average cast time.

I can see how you can lose ignite ticks, but whats the gap from going from rolling ignites, to losing ignites, ~.05s?.1?

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same issue, but on the last Shade of Akama fight, according to WWS I did 60K in crit damage, 17390 in non-crits and 5009 from ignite. (70% crit rate, almost perma IV+Heroism for ~1.85 second fireballs).

I should have gotten 24K in ignites, so that's a loss of 19K - ouch. Is this because most of the ignites never ticked, and just rolled off the end of the fight? In which case I should switch to non-fire spells near the end. Or is it possibly something even more insidious with ignites actually disappearing?

You probably had a fairly large Ignite that never ticked. I would venture that if you look at the WWS log, you'll see that you crit 5-10 spells in a row before the Shade died. So, you probably didn't "lose" damage.

Once shade of akama releases it's only like a 40 second fight...

Considering a 70% crit rate with <2 sec fireballs you were refreshing ignites almost constantly. You may have lost some damage from problems with ignite, but I would guess most of that damge that you can't find rolled right off the end when he died.

Just to clarify this; if you compare no haste (9x1 28.5sec cycle) over 6 minute fight to 2% haste (9x1 27.93sec cycle) you end up getting 2 more fireballs off (very close to a third). For this same fight haste by approximately 4.8% (10x1 30sec cycle) you still have 12 rotations even, which is still 12 scorches. The fight would need to be longer than 6 minutes, approximately 12 (I didn't do this math) for the 10x1 rotation to save a scorch. Even if you used the 9x1 rotation for the 4.8% haste rotation, you cast one scorch instead of fireball, which is not much of a dps loss over a 6 minute fight, and I'd say it could be practically ignored because the death of a target could also happen before you finish a "last cast" which would alter your dps higher than this.

No haste (9x1) = 12 cycles +6 fireballs (12x28.5 + 6x3)
2% (9x1) = 12 cycles +8 fireballs (12x27.93 +8x3)
4.8% (10x1) = 12 cycles (12x30)
4.8% (9x1) = 13 cycles +2 fireballs (13x27.14 + 2x3)

Would bring a lot of fun back into playing a mage. It wouldn't just solve our dps issues. It would solve our dps issues in a fun way without really being overpower in pvp at all.

Well, keep in mind that gonktarget is survival. The bow increased his brut dps by 400 basically. ~2600 dps on this week brut. By comparison I pulled a clutch 2400 dps with 2 burns, no innervates and no coe.

The loatheb parse just shows how retarded 100% crit rate changes numbers (ie: permanent ferocious inspiration and a few other impacts). On the naxx parse I got 2.7k on brut I think, which was quite above gonk.

The real question is what kind of of dps a bm hunter would get with that bow.
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