Lujaar

I'm told the Dragonstrike buff doesn't stack. If you want to get run dual Dragonstrikes through the sim, figure out how much passive haste the proc is worth, multiply by (1 - proc uptime with a single dragonstrike), and add in the second dragonstrike proc as passive haste.

There's a slight possibility that modelling a haste proc as passive haste will give you really strange numbers. If doing this gives you a haste EP value < 1.0, just disregard the results. Otherwhise this should work.

 

Hornbreakerz

Simply bumping a post I made, that didn't recieve an answer:
Since Lootrank now weighs weapon speed aswell, what do you think I should put in there?

Thanks in advance.

 

Aylii

2.6 to 2.8 is the optimal weapon speed to put, but if you are interested in seeing how the badge weapons weigh in dps, make it 2.5 to 2.8.

 

illiana

From the rule list of totem choices (skipping the first 3 rules, since they did not apply at the moment the question arose):

Rule 4 - If there is no Warrior, but 2 or more Combat Sword Rogues are in the group, they will benefit slightly more from Windfury than from Grace of Air.

Rule 5 - If your group has no warrior, and 2 or more Feral Druids or Hunters, Grace of Air is the totem of choice.

We are having what seems to be the start of a flame war on our guild forums, since one person was reading these rules as "if you want to maximise group dps, only use Grace of Air if rules 1 to 4 don't apply", while another person is arguing that rule 4 states that while the rogues will do slightly more dps with Windfury, the combined added dps from the others in the group (feral(s) and hunter(s)) will be higher when the shaman does GoA. Which one of them is right?

 

Hornbreakerz

I'm talking about the EP you can rate Weapon Speed with not the filtering.

 

Aylii

Oh, I'm sorry. I misunderstood. Whenever I export the sim data into lootrank, it always shows up as 0. So I "assume" that we just leave it at that.

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

Jheherrin

Would it be valid to put weapon speed weighting at 1/2.6 or 0.384 ?

This would put the weight for a 2.6 speed at 1, would reduce the EP of faster weapons and increase the EP of slower weapons.
We have to use 2.6 as a baseline as this is the only speed for which we have weapon dps to EP values.

This is dependent on the realationship between weapon dps weightings and weapon speed.
For small differences from 2.6 this will probably be acceptable as it will not vary too far from actual.

But since we do not know the exact relationship between weapon dps weighting and weapon speed (linear, exponential, log ?? ) as we get further away from 2.6 speed the approximation becomes less valid.

 

Mman

Has anybody put any thought in how we will need to adjust EP for the upcoming expansion? Mechanics and talents are going to make certain things less/more valuable to us.

For example, will crit rating now be more valuable than agility if it affects both melee and spells? Is the dps increase from more spell crits really noticeable, and at what amount of crit rating will it make Elemental Devastation worth it?

It can also be assumed that enhancement shaman will now have Mental Dexterity, giving us 1AP for every point of Int. Seems like we would weight this 1EP, since it grants 1AP. 1.1EP if we include kings...or if we get Ancestral knowledge it could actually be worth 1.166EP if we get Ancestral Knowledge (1 * 10% * 6%). Maybe even a little more if we are including the benefit of spell crit from it? (Probably Not)

 

hozzer

To approximate an AEP value for Weapon Speed, I used the sim with my current values to determine the dps increase from adding .1 to the weapon speed. I then divided that amound by the DPS value of 1 AEP to get an appoximate value for .1 weapon speed, then multiplied that by 10 for Lootrank. These numbers should be in the right ballpark for weapon speeds of 2.5-2.8, which is primarily what I am interested in. The results I've gotten are fairly consistent with current consensus on best weapon choices thus far.

To attempt to express the math:
d=DPS value of .1 Weapon Speed
a=DPS value of 1 AEP
d/a*10
In my case:
6/.33*10 = 181.81 AEP for Main Hand Weapon Speed

 

Rhaegal

The int EP value is pretty straightforward, and yes, we can assume everyone will have that talent. I do not think, however, that it's worth assuming Ancestral Knowledge, as it's still a pretty terrible talent. 1 EP (1.1 w/ kings) will be the static EP value for int for probably 90% of enhancement shaman in the expansion.

However, it's too early to estimate what level 80 EP values for crit, agi, hit, haste, and armor penetration will look like. Even if we had a working model/sim for 3.0 talents and level 70 gear, we don't know what level 80 gear will look like. We've all seen the effects of gear on EP (e.g., stacking armor pen inflating the value of crit/agi). We have a general range of reasonable values for stats on level 70 gear, but the relative amounts on "standard" level 80 gear may look different, causing EP values to shift around (especially when it comes to whether or not we get much of our crit from crit rating, or if it will still come primarily from agi).

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

Mman

Well, certainly projecting out to level 80 is perhaps far too in the future for theorycrafting, I think it could be worthwhile to make certain assumptions about WotLK and project that into current level 70 gear. For instance, if we consider the conversion of INT to AP we definetly get an upgrade to our AP, even if we are not wearing any INT (100AP naked). However, when I imput the values for INT EP into lootrank it does very little, at least to the top 15-20 slots, for our gear choices (simply boosting druid leather a few spots higher in spots, which I'm sure they will love).

You are right about Ancestral Knowledge being pretty terrible though. Unless we stack INT it is at most a ~25AP boost.

 

• Raut

You can't give static EP values to anything other than AP related stats. Str, AP and Int can have static EP. All others will fluctuate relatively to how it compares to other stats. The only other fixed relation in EP is between Ag and Crit as X Ag gives Y Crit. The EP for Ag and Crit will vary, but the ratio between them will be fixed.

Ag/Crit will not share a common ratio in WotL if the rumor of spell/melee ratings will be combined. Ag will then follow melee only while Crit will also modify your shock damage.

Edit: Strictly speaking you can't include Int as a fixed EP either in WotL. It will affect your spell crit chance however slight that may be. Chances are that we're talking 50-60 Int for 1% crit chance that affects around 10% of your total damage done so it's quite safe to assume a fixed EP.

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel

 

zwylde

Scattershooting while thinking about preparing for WOTLK:

So here I sit in a 4/9 Hyjal 5/9 BT guild with say 3 months or so until WOTLK comes out, and I'm using the Sim and Loot Rank to determine what gear to best equip my toon to kill more internet monsters. But I think timing begs the question should I go for the best gear for now, or the best gear to burst myself from 70 to 80 where my hard earned epics will become less useful.

Given the class mechanics changes that are coming where Str, Agi, and Int will all be worth 1 AP unbuffed by kings of course, and Agi gives melee crit and Int gives spell crit, what does the community think appropriate adjustments in EP would be for these. Str at 1.1 is obvious. Int at 1.1 or greater due to Spell Crit, but what about Agi. Today depending on if you use T6 or Sunwell rankings, Agi rates 1.69 or 1.89. But does adding 1.1 to get a 2.79 to 2.99 number sound correct? If the number goes this high, and adding in the Int contribution, many mail pieces become more attractive, and we will all be switching out our Bold Crimson Spinals for Delicate Crimson Spinals. Or if you are like me and you do not have all of your gear epic gemmed yet, why spend the gold to gem now only to regem in 3 months.

What say ye ole wise ones? Does now seem the time to begin considering WOTLK EP values and picking up and banking those mail pieces that will at the load of an expansion make your current gear less attractive?

 

Mman

I would say don't worry about getting specific gear for the expansion. The biggest change of course will be the devaluation of strength, so if you have any gear really heavy on it you could always be on the lookout for a replacement. If you want to put epic gems in your gear and make them expansion proof simply put AP gems in them. You will most likely see a hit in crit rating come the expansion (agility not being worth as much crit) but AP is the one stat that will stay consistent from now into the expansion.

 

zwylde

Hmm, played around with Loot rank some, moving Int to 1.1 an dropping Str to 1.1. Next I varied Agi to see what effect it would have on suggested gems. The cross over point looks to be Agi of 2.0. At 2.0 and below AP gems are prefered. Above 2.0 beginning with 2.01 Agility gems are preferred. Any thoughts on the value Agility will move to? The floor is 1.1 which is obvious, but the Crit gained will not be the 1.89 that it is today. Will the move from 25 to 40 crit rating for 1% crit that I read somewhere change that 1.89 to 1.2 or would it be lower? Given that Cits will also feed Maelstorm Weapon, Flurry, etc., I could see where we would want to value agility at a fairly high rate. I know that we won't be able obtain the true EP values until a simulator is available for WOTLK, but I'm still looking for some fair approximation to use as a starting point.

 

• Smithist

The thing is, that it won't have a huge impact on what actual items you choose anyway. Gemming is the thing that will really be affected. Most raid items, save for t6, don't even have much strength and will remain quite good come Wrath. [Boneweave Girdle], [Softstep Boots of Tracking], [Coif of Alleria] as just a few examples.

There are of course a few exceptions, like t6 (and I believe there was a blue post saying the set would be reworked) and the 'feral' items that beat out their mail counterparts in a few slots ([Demontooth Shoulderpads]) but if you have access to these I'm sure you'll be able to snag the mail ones before wrath.

 

Gurth999

Int would actually more valuable than Str. How much more depends on how many points you put in ancestral knowledge and how much you value spell crit.

Agility is 62.5% of what it was in terms of crit but its gained 1.1 from ap. I figure that puts it at 2.2- 2.3. Hit and Crit are also going to have a significant increase in terms of value as they will now include spells. It could well put them ahead of agility depending on what % of enhance dps winds up being from spells.

 

Enervate

Honestly, the solution to all of this is just to totem twist always, as "elitist" or whatever as it may sound. It just makes everyone happy. Of course if you're in a group with a feral and 3 hunters then you can do the math, but otherwise...if even one person in my group can benefit from windfury twisting is always the best option. Spam mana pots if you have to, rDPS is more important.