I knew that Rogues should be WF MH/DP OH. Wasn't aware that DP ticks don't consume charges, so I'm sure that helps a lot. Carry on.
There are, however, certain situations, in which rogues would likely be using Wound Poison (Anetheron in Hyjal, for example). Wound poison acts as a direct damage ability, so it will consume SS charges. Admittedly, this is the exception, rather than the rule.
Just expanding on what bink posted in case people want to see the math.
LB average dmg for a ele shaman starting sunwell (fully raid buffed) would be around 2771.55 dmg(including crit) on average but this is not counting LO. LO dmg would be 1385.7
LO has a 20% procrate so every 5 LBs you can expect 1 LO so taking the average of this
5*2771.55+1*1385.7 = 15243.45 total dmg for 6 "casts"
15243.45dmg/6 hits = 2540.5 average dmg per hit
20% extra dmg = 508 additional dmg on average per SS charge
assuming 1 charge per 10s thats 508dmg/10s = 50.8dps
assuming 2 charges per 10s thats 1016dmg/10s = 101.6dps
Bold is mine. There is simply no world in which a hunter's pet consuming SS charges adds more DPS than an elemental shaman.
To break it down further, let's compare LB and LO separately.
2771.55*0.2 = 554.31 extra damage from SS
1385.7*0.2 = 277.14 extra damage from SS
Pet's get 12.5% of RAP as spell damage. Base damage of pet's LB: 99-113/2 = 106
(106 + 0.125*X)*0.2 = 554.31
X = 21324.4
Repeated for LO:
(106 + 0.125*X)*0.2 = 277.14
X = 10237.6
A hunter would need 21324.4 RAP for their pet's LB to gain as much from a Stormstrike charge as a T6+ elemental shaman does from his LB, or 10237.6 RAP for LO.
Not gonna happen.
Originally Posted by DeeNogger
I look forward to seeing these "numbers". Notice that I put the word numbers in quotations. Thats sassy type for "you're full of shit".
Originally Posted by Florrie
Nothing spells out attraction quite like being given books about the slaughter of your people.
However, Daler, you are answering the wrong question. The question isn't "Do hunters get more value from SS charges than an Ele shaman." The question is "Do ele shaman get more damage from SS charges than a hunter using a WS instead of another pet" The argument from the hunters is that the SS charges are completely irrelevant, because the DPS gain vs. their 2nd best pet outweighs any benefit we get from 100% charge consumption.
We are also doing these calculations at 100%, when in reality, if your hunters run a WS, they are not going to consume 100% of the SS charges, but some portion of them. I would like to see Cheeky's numbers once he is finished remodeling the Wind Serpent damage. The other problem in these calculation is that we are treating all hunters as equal. As was pointed out above, its not that the Wind Serpent is on face a highest DPS pet, it is once hunter crit gets to unreasonably high level that their pet can't use their focus effectively, "wasting" DPS. Your survival hunters hit this point very quickly, but others much less so, so simply saying "(DPS gain * hunters) = impressive math" is quite fallacious.
The modeling for Elemental gain from SS has been done, and is reasonably solid, but everything in regards to hunters in this thread has been anecdotal at best, and without any real evidence. Once we have that this thread can go somewhere, but at this point it seems to be an "Elemental vs. Enhancement vs. Hunter" debate, which contributes nothing. Anyone who plays an elemental shaman is doing it because we believe that it adds to the overall raid in terms of class synergy/DPS output, if compelling evidence is given that hunters using this pet is a net raid increase, we will give it up, but the flawed numbers being given is not helping it.
The base skill for Lightning Breath Rank 6 for a Wind Serpent has the following numbers: Breathes lightning, instantly dealing 99 to 113 Nature damage to a single target.
This damage scales off hunter stats with respect to AP, as well as to specific gear enhancements (like Beast-Tamer's Shoulders).
The average raiding level hunter with sufficient crit to support the improved focus regeneration levels from Go for the Throat is typically geared enough to the point that the average hit for Lightning Breath Rank 6 is about 250 damage non-crit, non-buff enhanced.
Lightning Breath has no cooldown except for the Pet GCD, which is 1.5 seconds. It is Instant cast, but is "channeled" meaning the pet cannot cast this spell while moving.
The skill takes 50 Focus per use, pets have a total of 100 Focus maximum. Go for the Throat regenerates 50 Focus every time the hunter critically strikes. Current study numbers show that a hunter must have somewhere in the neighborhood of ~30% crit to make using a Wind Serpent "worth" it in terms of special attack DPS.
There is also a raging debate currently going on over at the BRK forums about the difference between "Caster" (Paladin classed) and "Melee" (Warrior classed) pets. Currently, Caster pets run off the "Paladin" base set, meaning buffs to them are more beneficial to all critical strike/damage numbers. They must sacrifice a small amount of melee peak damage, as well as about 1000 hitpoints, but their "spell" damage abilities and critical strike capabilities are much higher than the Warrior classed pets. Would be interesting to see the difference numbers wise between Warrior and Paladin classed pets with respect to stolen Stormstrike charges.
Using the Best in Slot hunter represented above (post #10) and Cheeky's spreadsheet I produced the following numbers fully raid buffed:
Ravager DPS
Melee DPS: 395.41
Special DPS (Gore): 80.61
KC DPS: 141.10
Total DPS: 617.12
Wind Serpent DPS
Melee DPS: 384.62
Special DPS: 132.85
KC DPS: 137.26
Total DPS: 654.73
Edit: for additional reference (Cat vs Wind Serpent/Ele Shaman = Essentially 0 raid DPS change)
Cat DPS
Melee DPS: 395.41
Special DPS (Claw/Bite): 73.37
KC DPS: 141.10
Total DPS: 609.88
It is safe to assume that the Windserpent will consume one of the SS charges while the other is consumed by the elemental shaman. To calculate the consumption of the SS:
Lightning Breath Damage = 199.28 (every 1.5 seconds)
Total Casts over 10s = 6
Total Damage w/out SS = 1196
Total Damage w/1 SS = 1236
New Special DPS = 137.33
New Total Wind Serpent DPS = 659.21
Net Total Difference in using the Wind Serpent over the Ravager:
659.21 DPS – 617.12 DPS = 42.09 DPS
Taking the numbers from the Abananax's gentleman's post (post #23) above (wwscoreboard rules btw) the net gain for the Elemental Shaman from charges are:
1 Charge = 50.8 DPS
2 Charges = 101.6 DPS
So in essence the hunter bringing the Wind Serpent is a personal DPS gain of 42.09 DPS for them but a net loss of 50.8 DPS for the elemental shaman. So overall the raid loses a grand total of 8.71 DPS.
To place this is in perspective (using the numbers provided) consider a raid wide DPS output of 30,000, 8.71 DPS makes up .03% difference.
If the numbers calculated for Elemental Shaman benefit change I will edit the post.
I was under the impression that LO was NOT just half the damage of a lightning bolt, but instead half the BASE damage but then with all the normal modifiers. In fact, iirc Bink's elemental shammy post even points out that LO has an 8% higher coefficient (I assume a remnant from pre-nerf). Or am I reading and remembering incorrectly?
No first all you are remebering a bug when 2.3 changes were on the ptr and second what bink is explaining is that LB coef is not 2.5/3.5 but rather it is artificially inflated to 2.5/3.5 +.08.
No first all you are remebering a bug when 2.3 changes were on the ptr and second what bink is explaining is that LB coef is not 2.5/3.5 but rather it is artificially inflated to 2.5/3.5 +.08.
Alright, thank you. That clears up a lot of problems I was having with my napkin math, I should have noticed it earlier.
Fola your average damage for LB is rather low. In theory it might be 200 but in raid situation with ench + ele shaman it's closer to 230 from hits alone. I assume your 199.28 is average damage which includes crits.
Here's a few WWS logs I scrolled through:
Reebz - WWS average hit 252, average crit 347, 10% crit
Thanks for the math Fola. At the very least it'll let me sleep easier bringing a WS to T5 raid content and not feeling like a huge jerk. I'll sacrifice 8 overall raid dps for not having to buy pet food any day ^_^
Originally Posted by Bula
"They were bad, stop trying to figure out why bad players do bad things."
I'll try and get a more accurate model for Lightning Breath in the next couple days. I need a better coefficient, and some work on full/partial resists. (Not to mention factoring in Misery, etc.)
My guess is that even a single Wind Serpent is going to consume most of the charges. And this counts them having effectively +0 spell hit. (Now, if the Wind Serpent was in a group with the Elemental Shaman things might get a bit more interesting.)
And ignore any comments about caster pets. There is no way to justify their lower melee damage through a slightly better chance at LB crits. It's a huge net loss in DPS to bring a caster pet to a raid.
(Now, if the Wind Serpent was in a group with the Elemental Shaman things might get a bit more interesting.)
I haven't had any chance to test it out in a raid setting with ToW, but from what I've seen, my wind serpent gained 0 benefit from Wrath of Air in the times I was placed in a caster group.
On the subject of rogue poisons, like Mind Flay and any shadow based DoT with Improved Shadowbolt, Deadly Poison gains 20% damage for tics that occur while the Stormstrike debuff is up while not consuming charges.
Originally Posted by DeeNogger
Every time I bite into an oatmeal raisin cookie mistaken for a chocolate-chip an angle loses its wings. Fucking trani's of the cookie world!
It is safe to assume that the Windserpent will consume one of the SS charges while the other is consumed by the elemental shaman. To calculate the consumption of the SS:
Keep in mind that with only one Elemental and one Enhancement, this already happens between the two of them for ~ 2/3 of the SS. The other 1/3 the Elemental gets both charges (except in a case where the Elemental LB + CL hits in the Global after a SS in which case they get both also).
Originally Posted by Shonassir
I didn't read all these posts but I wanted to add that Boomkin druids also take up Stormstrike charges.
In most cases, I've seen ZERO Sunwell WWS's with a Moonkin, and very little BT/Hyjal WWS's with them. The majority of Moonkin contribution that I've seen is in SSC/TK and lower. Perhaps you have different information than I do, but that's my observations, in which case it's safe to assume that this won't be a contributing factor.
Originally Posted by Philondra
There are, however, certain situations, in which rogues would likely be using Wound Poison (Anetheron in Hyjal, for example). Wound poison acts as a direct damage ability, so it will consume SS charges. Admittedly, this is the exception, rather than the rule.
In addition, by the time you get into T6-level raiding, Starfire is better than Wrath even without taking into consideration mana issues, and in T5 the damage differences are tiny compared to the amount of mana saved by not touched Wrath. Any doomkin at high-end raiding will be a non-issue for Stormstrike concerns.]
EDIT:
Cheeky: Just to get you started, in case you don't know casters very well.
- 17% resist rate against bosses
- Assumed two-roll system (hit/miss -> hit/crit)
- Final "roll" for partial resistance (about 24 resistance to all schools, non-negatable, equal to a 5-6% damage loss overall)
- Only two debuffs off the top of my head that will effect it are Misery and SS.
Unfortunately I don't have access to a shammy to try and test out LB with +dmg buffs. I could try LB coefficient, but it would take me a few days to get the time, and it would be a sub-70 hunter and pet, so probably not ideal.
For some more data for anyone tring to figure out the math, I put my gear and spec into Cheeky's.
Ravager: 61.67 special DPS, 264.97 overall DPS.
WS: 110.22 special DPS, 307.60 overall DPS.
Net gain: 42.63.
This is without raid buffs. I would expect raid buffs/debuffs to favor the Wind Serpent more than the Ravager. The Ravager will gain slightly more DPS out of Blessings and armor reductions because of its higher base damage modifier (10% vs I believ 7% for a WS?), but the WS will gain from Misery, plus the hunter's higher crit will favor the WS even more (the crit vs 73 in my spreadsheet is at 32.59%).
Numbers for Lightning Breath damage, 189 after adjustments from mood, FI, orc racial, etc, but again not counting raid buffs/debuffs.
One number I saw floating around was that an elemental shaman got about 60% of SS charges. DPS increase for 2 charges was 101.6 DPS. 101.6 * .6 = 60.96 DPS gained from SS by an elemental shaman on average. What really needs to be done is figured what % of SS charges would an elemental shaman get as wind serpents were added to the raid. First of all, at 2 wind serpents, that is a gain of 42.63 * 2 = 85.26 DPS for the hunters *not counting SS*, where as an elemental shaman only gets 60.69 DPS from SS charges. Therefore, at 1 enhance sham + 1 elemental sham + 2 or more wind serpents, using wind serpents should come out to a higher net DPS regardless of the loss of SS charges to the ele shaman.
So, now to find the % of SS charges the elemental shaman gets for the DPS from the SS charges and the hunter having the wind serpent to be equal. 101.6 * x = (60.96-42.63). x= about 18%. So if an elemental shaman gets more than 18% of the SS charges even with the addition of one wind serpent, the raid would be at a net benefit, if the shaman would get less than the raid is at a net loss.
Feel free to correct any math/theory, and if someone wants to model it with raid buffs/debuffs and some higher level gear than mine, it would help this thread's accuracy.
EDIT: I would expect these numbers to be completely different if you had more than 1 enhance shaman or more than 1 elemental shaman as well. These numbers are assuming 1 of each, and also assuming numbers from other posts in this thread are correct.
At most, with one enh shaman there are two SS charges per 10 seconds to use. The elemental shaman casts a spell at least once every 2 seconds (between haste gear and CL, it should be significantly more in practice). Glancing at a few WWS logs, Wind Serpents cast LB about once every 2.5 seconds. Assuming Osse's number of 80 dps is accurate and spells are evenly distributed, the net effect is this:
# Wind Serpents
WS DPS gain
Charges used by WS per 10 seconds
Pre-SS LBolt size for equal DPS gain
1
80
.8
5000
2
160
1.375
5818
3
240
1.58
7595
4
320
1.69
9467
Assuming I made no math errors and the assumptions are accurate, using wind serpents is a net DPS gain for the raid even with an elemental shaman unless you have an ele shaman that can do 2.5k DPS without SS.
So, Wind Serpents can dish out 6k attacks that cast at less then 2 seconds? I am sure they cannot, so the Stormstrike debuff is best left the Elemental Shamans.
I really don't think actually reading a thread is too much to ask when it's two pages. Who makes best use of the SS debuff is a completely meaningless question with an incredibly obvious answer.
I really don't think actually reading a thread is too much to ask when it's two pages. Who makes best use of the SS debuff is a completely meaningless question with an incredibly obvious answer.
I was thinking that too but decided to keep that to myself, didn't feel it was constructive to the thread.
Montezuma, the thread is about the overall impact of a WS eating SS charges in a raid environment. Not whether a 20% increase of a 6k cast is bigger than a 20% increase in a 250 cast. And as Shalas pointed out that's a pretty glaringly obvious point to make. Read the entire thread.
Originally Posted by Bula
"They were bad, stop trying to figure out why bad players do bad things."
So is it just a question of how many hunters bring wind serpents?
If each brings an extra 60-80 dps over a ravager, then 2x wind serpents will outpace the gain from an elem shaman using 100% of the SS charges. Am I missing something, or is it really that simple (assuming the dps gain figure is correct)?
Originally Posted by DeeNogger
I look forward to seeing these "numbers". Notice that I put the word numbers in quotations. Thats sassy type for "you're full of shit".
Originally Posted by Florrie
Nothing spells out attraction quite like being given books about the slaughter of your people.
Why your WS doesnt have bite? The owl try your pet got two heroisms which makes rather large difference.
Also there must have been something different on the attempts as your ravagers melee swings are 7.4% higher average when they should be 3%. Could be insanely bad RNG but I doubt it.
Your WS numbers look very odd as here's my WS log from last week without heroism or BM hunter in the group. 5 drums of battle uses less as well. :/
The question isn't "who gets more from SS, the guy doing several thousand damage, or the pet doing ~200 damage", so it's not quite so obvious.
its the question of "if 3 windserpents are left behind, and another pet brought instead, thats a raid DPS loss of ~90DPS. Is a single ele shaman getting the 2 charges a dps increase of ~90+? If yes, then it is beneficial for the raid to leave the windserpents at home. If it is not giving him an extra 90dps, well tough luck, in come the serpents, its the raid DPS that matters".
Considering the survival hunter will generally be bringing an Owl for screech, I suspect you would be looking at only 2 windserpents coming in, depending on your raid make up.
Million dollar question, does anyone know if SS will add 60+ dps to the ele shaman, given his gear is good enough ?
I personally don't mind leaving the serpent behind so long as its an actual increase to raid DPS, but if when 2+ hunters are in the raid, if its actually a decrease to raid DPS, the ele shamans ego is not important enough to me to hamper raid DPS. 60dps is still 21,600 damage over a full Brutallus fight.
*edit* With Bruts stats input into the spreadsheet, Cheekeys spreadsheet has my own pets dps increasing by 29.43 by taking a wind serpent, and our other BM hunters dps as 30.8 increase, which is what the above figures are based on.
I did some napkin math that said stormstrike is approximately 6.66666~% dps increase for the ele shaman if he gets all the charges and it came out to about a 90~dps increase assuming a 1400 dps to start (which is rather low I think actually). It's a very rough estimate though, and I'm sure someone smarter than me has calculated how much of a dps increase stormstrike charges are for an elemental shaman.
That's exactly what I'm asking proxx. I need some decent figures for DPS gained by bringing wind serpents instead of ravagers. Anything from 30 DPS up to 80 DPS have been suggested. That's a fairly large gap.
Originally Posted by DeeNogger
I look forward to seeing these "numbers". Notice that I put the word numbers in quotations. Thats sassy type for "you're full of shit".
Originally Posted by Florrie
Nothing spells out attraction quite like being given books about the slaughter of your people.
That's exactly what I'm asking proxx. I need some decent figures for DPS gained by bringing wind serpents instead of ravagers. Anything from 30 DPS up to 80 DPS have been suggested. That's a fairly large gap.
It will depend entirely on peoples gear, and group composition, but Cheekys spreadsheet is gonna be the best thing to go by. My gear's not the greatest, but the sheet has it coming out as a hair short of 30dps increase. I would expect other people on Brut to be similar.
Things to keep in mind: If your pet has any crit modifiers (e.g. feral druid) - my understanding is that this is going to increase the crit rate of Gore, but not the crit rate of LB. Likewise, strength of earth totem is going to increase the damage of Gore, but not the damage of LB. IMP hunters mark again, will increase gore damage, but not LB.
Basically, the better your group comp, the less the distance in DPS will be between a ravager and wind serpent. I do Brut with a shaman with imp agi etc, a feral druid, another BM hunter and a surv hunter, so this may go a way towards explaining why the increase I'm seeing is only ~30dps. At this stage, I'm going to assume that getting both SS charges will increase the ele shamans DPS by more than ~60, so the flappy snake shall stay in the stable, despite my love of annoying melee with flying pets in their face .
04/22/08, 12:10 PM
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