[Hunter/Shaman] Wind Serpents with DPS Shammies - Page 3

Daidalos · 04/22/08, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by vokzhen

I was under the impression that LO was NOT just half the damage of a lightning bolt, but instead half the BASE damage but then with all the normal modifiers. In fact, iirc Bink's elemental shammy post even points out that LO has an 8% higher coefficient (I assume a remnant from pre-nerf). Or am I reading and remembering incorrectly?

No first all you are remebering a bug when 2.3 changes were on the ptr and second what bink is explaining is that LB coef is not 2.5/3.5 but rather it is artificially inflated to 2.5/3.5 +.08.

vokzhen · 04/22/08, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

No first all you are remebering a bug when 2.3 changes were on the ptr and second what bink is explaining is that LB coef is not 2.5/3.5 but rather it is artificially inflated to 2.5/3.5 +.08.

Alright, thank you. That clears up a lot of problems I was having with my napkin math, I should have noticed it earlier.

Shonassir · 04/22/08, 12:22 PM

I didn't read all these posts but I wanted to add that Boomkin druids also take up Stormstrike charges.

Osse · 04/22/08, 12:35 PM

Fola your average damage for LB is rather low. In theory it might be 200 but in raid situation with ench + ele shaman it's closer to 230 from hits alone. I assume your 199.28 is average damage which includes crits.

Here's a few WWS logs I scrolled through:

Reebz - WWS average hit 252, average crit 347, 10% crit

어리버리사냥꾼 - WWS average hit 239, average crit 359. 10% crit

Casperle - WWS average hit 231, average crit 336. 8% crit

�*키요미 - WWS average hit 221, average crit 338. 7% crit

Tribune - WWS average hit 222, average crit 351. 6% crit

Pixen · 04/22/08, 1:21 PM

Thanks for the math Fola. At the very least it'll let me sleep easier bringing a WS to T5 raid content and not feeling like a huge jerk. I'll sacrifice 8 overall raid dps for not having to buy pet food any day ^_^

Cheeky · 04/22/08, 1:49 PM

I'll try and get a more accurate model for Lightning Breath in the next couple days. I need a better coefficient, and some work on full/partial resists. (Not to mention factoring in Misery, etc.)

My guess is that even a single Wind Serpent is going to consume most of the charges. And this counts them having effectively +0 spell hit. (Now, if the Wind Serpent was in a group with the Elemental Shaman things might get a bit more interesting.)

And ignore any comments about caster pets. There is no way to justify their lower melee damage through a slightly better chance at LB crits. It's a huge net loss in DPS to bring a caster pet to a raid.

Sarutobi · 04/22/08, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

(Now, if the Wind Serpent was in a group with the Elemental Shaman things might get a bit more interesting.)

I haven't had any chance to test it out in a raid setting with ToW, but from what I've seen, my wind serpent gained 0 benefit from Wrath of Air in the times I was placed in a caster group.

On the subject of rogue poisons, like Mind Flay and any shadow based DoT with Improved Shadowbolt, Deadly Poison gains 20% damage for tics that occur while the Stormstrike debuff is up while not consuming charges.

Mirranda · 04/22/08, 2:31 PM

Originally Posted by Fola

It is safe to assume that the Windserpent will consume one of the SS charges while the other is consumed by the elemental shaman. To calculate the consumption of the SS:

Keep in mind that with only one Elemental and one Enhancement, this already happens between the two of them for ~ 2/3 of the SS. The other 1/3 the Elemental gets both charges (except in a case where the Elemental LB + CL hits in the Global after a SS in which case they get both also).

Originally Posted by Shonassir

I didn't read all these posts but I wanted to add that Boomkin druids also take up Stormstrike charges.

In most cases, I've seen ZERO Sunwell WWS's with a Moonkin, and very little BT/Hyjal WWS's with them. The majority of Moonkin contribution that I've seen is in SSC/TK and lower. Perhaps you have different information than I do, but that's my observations, in which case it's safe to assume that this won't be a contributing factor.

Originally Posted by Philondra

There are, however, certain situations, in which rogues would likely be using Wound Poison (Anetheron in Hyjal, for example). Wound poison acts as a direct damage ability, so it will consume SS charges. Admittedly, this is the exception, rather than the rule.

Mortal Strike from the raid buff warrior.

vokzhen · 04/22/08, 2:36 PM

In addition, by the time you get into T6-level raiding, Starfire is better than Wrath even without taking into consideration mana issues, and in T5 the damage differences are tiny compared to the amount of mana saved by not touched Wrath. Any doomkin at high-end raiding will be a non-issue for Stormstrike concerns.]

EDIT:
Cheeky: Just to get you started, in case you don't know casters very well.
- 17% resist rate against bosses
- Assumed two-roll system (hit/miss -> hit/crit)
- Final "roll" for partial resistance (about 24 resistance to all schools, non-negatable, equal to a 5-6% damage loss overall)
- Only two debuffs off the top of my head that will effect it are Misery and SS.
Unfortunately I don't have access to a shammy to try and test out LB with +dmg buffs. I could try LB coefficient, but it would take me a few days to get the time, and it would be a sub-70 hunter and pet, so probably not ideal.

Partil · 04/22/08, 3:05 PM

For some more data for anyone tring to figure out the math, I put my gear and spec into Cheeky's.
Ravager: 61.67 special DPS, 264.97 overall DPS.
WS: 110.22 special DPS, 307.60 overall DPS.
Net gain: 42.63.
This is without raid buffs. I would expect raid buffs/debuffs to favor the Wind Serpent more than the Ravager. The Ravager will gain slightly more DPS out of Blessings and armor reductions because of its higher base damage modifier (10% vs I believ 7% for a WS?), but the WS will gain from Misery, plus the hunter's higher crit will favor the WS even more (the crit vs 73 in my spreadsheet is at 32.59%).
Numbers for Lightning Breath damage, 189 after adjustments from mood, FI, orc racial, etc, but again not counting raid buffs/debuffs.
One number I saw floating around was that an elemental shaman got about 60% of SS charges. DPS increase for 2 charges was 101.6 DPS. 101.6 * .6 = 60.96 DPS gained from SS by an elemental shaman on average. What really needs to be done is figured what % of SS charges would an elemental shaman get as wind serpents were added to the raid. First of all, at 2 wind serpents, that is a gain of 42.63 * 2 = 85.26 DPS for the hunters *not counting SS*, where as an elemental shaman only gets 60.69 DPS from SS charges. Therefore, at 1 enhance sham + 1 elemental sham + 2 or more wind serpents, using wind serpents should come out to a higher net DPS regardless of the loss of SS charges to the ele shaman.
So, now to find the % of SS charges the elemental shaman gets for the DPS from the SS charges and the hunter having the wind serpent to be equal. 101.6 * x = (60.96-42.63). x= about 18%. So if an elemental shaman gets more than 18% of the SS charges even with the addition of one wind serpent, the raid would be at a net benefit, if the shaman would get less than the raid is at a net loss.

Feel free to correct any math/theory, and if someone wants to model it with raid buffs/debuffs and some higher level gear than mine, it would help this thread's accuracy.

EDIT: I would expect these numbers to be completely different if you had more than 1 enhance shaman or more than 1 elemental shaman as well. These numbers are assuming 1 of each, and also assuming numbers from other posts in this thread are correct.

Montezuma · 04/22/08, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by Shalas

At most, with one enh shaman there are two SS charges per 10 seconds to use. The elemental shaman casts a spell at least once every 2 seconds (between haste gear and CL, it should be significantly more in practice). Glancing at a few WWS logs, Wind Serpents cast LB about once every 2.5 seconds. Assuming Osse's number of 80 dps is accurate and spells are evenly distributed, the net effect is this:

# Wind Serpents	WS DPS gain	Charges used by WS per 10 seconds	Pre-SS LBolt size for equal DPS gain
1	80	.8	5000
2	160	1.375	5818
3	240	1.58	7595
4	320	1.69	9467

Assuming I made no math errors and the assumptions are accurate, using wind serpents is a net DPS gain for the raid even with an elemental shaman unless you have an ele shaman that can do 2.5k DPS without SS.

So, Wind Serpents can dish out 6k attacks that cast at less then 2 seconds? I am sure they cannot, so the Stormstrike debuff is best left the Elemental Shamans.

• Shalas · 04/22/08, 4:11 PM

I really don't think actually reading a thread is too much to ask when it's two pages. Who makes best use of the SS debuff is a completely meaningless question with an incredibly obvious answer.

Pixen · 04/22/08, 4:20 PM

Originally Posted by Shalas

I really don't think actually reading a thread is too much to ask when it's two pages. Who makes best use of the SS debuff is a completely meaningless question with an incredibly obvious answer.

I was thinking that too but decided to keep that to myself, didn't feel it was constructive to the thread.

Montezuma, the thread is about the overall impact of a WS eating SS charges in a raid environment. Not whether a 20% increase of a 6k cast is bigger than a 20% increase in a 250 cast. And as Shalas pointed out that's a pretty glaringly obvious point to make. Read the entire thread.

Daler · 04/22/08, 4:29 PM

So is it just a question of how many hunters bring wind serpents?

If each brings an extra 60-80 dps over a ravager, then 2x wind serpents will outpace the gain from an elem shaman using 100% of the SS charges. Am I missing something, or is it really that simple (assuming the dps gain figure is correct)?

Jander · 04/22/08, 5:10 PM

I have several Brut attempts as various specs and with various pets.

I have a kill with me as SV with a Wind Serpent and another with me as SV with an Owl (Not even the 2nd best dps pet).

Wow Web Stats
Wind Serpent Kill = 282 Pet DPS

Wow Web Stats
Owl Kill = 250 Pet DPS

Only a 32 DPS Difference between a Wind Serpent and a pet that is inferior to a ravager.

Spreadsheet Pet DPS
Owl 312
WindSerp 368
Ravager 344

I have never seen much of a DPS difference between my Wind Serpent versus my Ravager.