Wizeowel

People talking about the 'fixed mana pool' again forgetting the effect of JoW and clearcasting when you can cast more spells in a fight.

I was expecting someone would eventually chime in with a 'fire is better' comment. But I really really didn't expect it from you, Manly, in the middle of a discussion about how haste compares to other stats for arcane

 

Laif@garona

Hey Nathanbp thanks very much, you just made me see something that I didn't before.

When I looked at Alvira's 'finite mana theory', I made the assumption that 100% AB is always the optimum dps and damage. Now I realised that assumption is wrong, at least your scenario proves so.

Damage wise,
2FrB + 99AB > 100AB

Mana usage wise,
2FrB + 99AB < 100AB

And 2FrB + 99AB in 150 sec is totally achieveable with 2.33% haste,
99*1.5/1.0233 + 2*2.5/1.0233 = 150

To Tizzlewump, I think now I can be convinced that haste does not necessary increase mana usage, totaldamage_k can possibly be achieved with just M.

To Alvira, with this example, can you be convinced that:

1. 100% AB is not necessary the optimal dps and damage - the implication here is Arcane mages should not always go for 100% AB uptime.
2. <100% AB + filler cycle may produce greater dps at a lower mana cost.
3. Haste maybe the key to point #2.

 

◊ manly

I was responding to posts about arcane dps wws numbers on brutallus. Someone quotes 2400-2500 as-if it were something to look forward to. The problem is that you can't really compare one spec to another, and if you are to do it, you need to least put them on equal footing. And this is where its really troublesome, becuase 'equal footing' when including arcane is very much debatable. You pretty much absolutely want jow, imp. ds and innervates. Not everyone will agree to it.

Also, fwiw, I think the conversation is quite pointless as it is. We do not design the gear available. We have to choose amongst the pieces available. In that respect, you pretty much end up with haste gear whether or not you like it. If I'm not wrong, with like every buffs available, frostbolt is a mana gain for arcane/frost (warning: I haven't checked with the numbers in a long time). If it isn't it has a ridiculous DPM with clearcasting/jow/passive regen/sp, which end up giving pretty much the same result as far as balancing cycles go. Basically, its indefinitely sustenable. Haste is obviously good for the simple reason that adding more frostbolt never comes at a cost (realistically), so you can always fill in more frostbolts.

"Did the last bastion of arcane hope give up to the FFB gods ?"

please fix rolling deep wounds.

 

Alvira

I would if I am convinced they are directly comparable. But they are not. Because 2 FrB + 99 AB takes far longer to cast than 100 AB. By the time you are half way through the cast of that first FrB, the boss would have died already. Time is a factor here as well.

 

xiaoxin21

nathanbp is comparing the effects of haste so time is a consideration. He is pointing out that given some haste , he can cast 101 spells(99AB +2FB) compared to no haste (100AB).

The thing about arcane is, it is extremely good in low gear levels,(T5 and T6) till people start to get 4pc T6. Then it starts to get comparable or slightly worse in some situations, and still better in some. In early BT /Hyjal, you can almost out dps any class in comparable gear(T5 and badge), as arcane damage is based mostly mana and badge loot offer lots of it and spirit.

 

mulco

I'm looking for some input from other mages farming Brut as 40/0/21. I'm not too interested in the previous discussion in this thread concerning Spi/Int gemming, or whether fire or arc can provide higher DPS for the encounter, and I haven't really seen any discussion of actual approach to the fight and only one decent WWS report.

I'm hoping for some tips on how eek out some more DPS. With a crit rate on the actual kill of 49% and a 88%/12% AB/frostbolt rotation, I managed almost 2300 DPS, but with a crit rate that high (expected should be around 45-46% I believe) and a nearly perfect raid comp I feel like I could be reaching the 24-2500DPS numbers as Manly mentions.

I got all the standard buffs: IDS, 300+MP5 SP, JoW and Imp. Kings/Wisdom, WoA/ToW/Mana Spring, Ret pally for Imp. SoC, etc., and my gear is pretty good for this point in progression, with around 465MP5 raid buffed. Though I do wonder whether switching the Illidan cowl, Leggings of Channeled Elements, and/or Cuffs of Devastation in would be higher DPS for this fight given the mandatory frostbolt usage, but that's another discussion.

Now with regard to spell rotation makeup and cooldown usage. I think most arcane users at this point in progression are pretty unaccustomed to managing a mana pool over a 6min pure spam fight, and consumption can be very fluid based on clearcasts etc., but over the night's attempts I found the points at which I used cooldowns to be fairly consistent. I've been burning AP/IV/SCB/hex when I get down 3k mana with all ABs, then potting and calling out for an innervate around 10% mana when Brut is at around 75-80%, then SCB/hex and mana pot, then evocation around 35-40% HP and finishing off with AP/IV/SCB/hex during heroism at 20% and mana pot again. I found that I was low enough on mana after the last AP/IV combo to not feel comfortable using coldsnap halfway through heroism to pop IV again. So I'm looking for some other arcane mages on this fight to post their WWSs and see how they handle their cooldowns during this fight in particular, since the 100% DPS uptime and average fight length makes this kind of discussion fairly valid IMO. In particular I'm wondering if frostbolt spam through heroism with AV/IV combo and coldsnap IV AB spam would work out better at the end, something I hope to try next week.

 

Wizeowel

Good idea. I'm gonna try this next week as well. I won't post my last night's WWS because frankly it's a bit embarrassing. I forgot evocation and only managed 2204 dps.

The one thing I do different to you is that, on the 2nd lot of cooldowns (2'30" into the fight), I use coldsnap and do IV+SCB+Hex together. This means that when heroism comes I have AP+SCB+Hex available. The third IV is saved for the end at which point I mix ABs and frostbolts depending on remaining mana. Once we start killing him under 5'50" I'm gonna have to rethink this.

 

madgazza

assuming 1 innervate on brutallus, i had always assumed that i would treat is almost as a 5 minute fight with 0 innervates and act accordingly. Then take an innervate at around 4:50 so that for the last minute with AP, double IV, heroism etc etc i would have a full mana pool to destroy in 1 minute at the end.
Would i be completely stupid?

 

Goedel

My approach to Brutallus timing, with [Serpent-Coil Braid] + [Hex Shrunken Head], no [The Skull of Gul'dan]:

0:00 Start AB; both because of threat sensitivity and because mana return exceeds spending at this point, don't bother with alternating AB-FrB to ramp up. (If you want to be precise, I've found that starting the first cast when Brutallus says "lambs" rides the initial threat line without pulling.)
0:30 (or thereabouts, whenever I'm down 3500 mana) Icy Veins + Arcane Power + Hex Shrunken Head + Mana Gem
0:50 (or thereabouts, whenever I'm down 3000 mana again) Mana potion
1:00- Continue AB3 spam, weaving in (AB-FrB)3-FrB2 cycles just enough to get down to empty just after the tank on the other side taunts; then Evocate without having to worry about Meteor Slash pushback. Depending on which side starts and your mana return rate, this may involve delaying Evocate for one or two tank cycles. After Evocate, use AB3 at least enough to get down 3500 mana again.
2:30 If I've had to remove a Burn with Ice Block before now, then Cold Snap and IV + AP + Hex + Gem 2nd time
2:50 Mana potion
3:30 If I didn't Ice Block before the 2nd Hex + Gem cooldown came up, then IV + AP + Hex + Gem 2nd time
4:50 (or any time before the end of the fight) Mana potion
5:30 If I didn't Cold Snap before 2:30, then do so before 5:30. IV + AP + Hex + Gem 3rd time
In between activations, weave enough filler cycles to keep mana low enough to make full use of the next mana gain and high enough to be able to use AB3 all through the next activation. This is a pretty broad range.

My guild is not yet at the easy farming phase, we lack a Retribution paladin, and Innervates so far have been saved for healers on this fight (though the last point may change soon). I count on kills going to 6:00 for now.


edit: The obvious error I realized after posting this is that Cold Snap doesn't reset Arcane Power along with Icy Veins, so AP is only usable twice. That's fine; just remove it from the middle one, assuming Heroism comes near the end on account of some other group member with Molten Fury.

 

mulco

I don't know what 5min fight you'd be used to pure spamming if you're working on Brutallus.. but I've found an innervate and an open gem/pot timer carry me for around or over 2mins with a AP+IV burn in there. If you're gonna use evocation first I'd pop that after your first consumables then the innervate around 35-40%. I think that might actually be better than an early innervate, as you can be much less conservative with mana during an innervate, and depending on clearcasts and what your consumables have hit for you might be able to squeeze in more ABs than the other method.

 

Sunde

I know what we are talking about here is haste in general, but as far as gemming goes, would straight spell damage be better? if you did not have ANY haste and you did the 100 AB's in the 150 seconds, and instead of gemming for 2.33% haste, you gemmed for spell damage instead. Wouldn't that give a higher DPS gain?

To get 2.33% haste you would have 36 spell haste, which would be either 6 reckless pyrestones, or 3 +10 haste, and one reckless pyrestone, the gems in spell damage would come out to be 36 extra spell damage, or 42 spell damage.

The extra damage from those gems with 100 AB's would increase the damage above the hasted 99 AB's and 2 fbolts.

My example is, lets say the 99 AB's and 2 Fbolts comes out to be
69*2200+30*3800+2*2000=269,800 1798.6 DPS

100 AB's with 42 extra spell damage:
30*3829.9628+70*2229.9628=270996.28 1806.64 DPS

In this case i used a 30% crit rate, and used my Base stats from a recent WWS parse.

With the spell damage gems over the haste gems it appears that there is a 8 DPS gain.

Now, to my question, what I am wondering is, should I based on the information I have supplied be gemming for straight spell damage, and nothing else? or did I miss something?

Also, on top of this, would there be a certain amount of haste where gemming for it will begin to increase DPS over the straight spell damage. And, would anyone here be able to figure out what number of haste this would happen, if it would, of course.

I am not amazing with the theorycrafting right now, so I am coming here to find out if my math, and conclusions are correct.

Edit: Also, I used .7134 as the AB spell damage coefficient, I hope that is correct.

 

Wizeowel

Sunde, since you are 4/9 in BT the choice is really between spelldamage and intellect, not haste. Worry about haste gems when you get to Sunwell. The general suggestion is to use Rawr.Mage and set the fight length to however long it takes your guild to kill Teron. Rawr can tell you if you want to gem for spelldamage or int.

 

Etherealz

Sunde: The issue is not 12 spell damage vs 5 haste 6 spell, or 12 spell damage vs 10 int - I think 12 spell damage is the better choice in a RED socket. However when considering the option of the yellow gem it's likely in fact 12 spell damage vs 5 haste 8 spell, or 10 int 2 spell - given you would have to sacrifice a socket bonus. To be completely optimal you would have of course two completely different gearsets, one with all yellows being 10 int, and one with 5 haste 6 spell damage (a teron buster if you will)

 

Alvira

I think I will revise my opening post and just bow down to the theorycraft. (Though I feel otherwise).

So, can we have an agreement on what are the preferred stats for Arane mage in that order?

So its

1st Int
2nd +dmg
3rd haste
4th crit

Correct?

Erm, yeah, and how would spirit rank in this. :X

 

Phren

I would probably put spirit above crit. Putting it above the others is very much a matter of where you are and what gear you currently have. That does not mean that you would rank something with 30 crit above an item that had one more spirit just that I would think long and hard about choosing between two items that had 15 spirit or 20 crit. More then likely in that scenario I was choose the spirit since I am above the 800 int mark.

 

Fujisaw

1st - int/spirt (Mana = Damage) i would gem every yellow slot with Int and every Blue with Spirt
2nd - +dmg I would gem every red slot with straght dmg
3rd - +crit never gem for it Int is far better for yellow slots

Haste is worthless to arcane mages. We are already casting at 1.5sec dont really need to make it so we run out of mana faster. In BT i run almost 15k mana and 400+MP5 while casting and i still need part of my Evo and a mana gem to finish the fight.

What is this 800 int mark does int lose its quality after this point?

 

Roywyn

Plugging Brutallus into Rawr as 40/0/21, with 2T5 (of course) and 1 Innervate (boosts the value of int/spi):

Black Temple/Hyjal gear (or: gear with little haste)
1) +12 dmg ~ 10.6 DPS
2) +10 int ~ 10.3 DPS
3) +10 haste ~ 8.4 DPS
4) +10 crit ~ 6.9 DPS
5) +10 spirit ~ 6.5 DPS
6) +4 mp5 ~ 2.0 DP

Sunwell gear (or: gear with a lot of haste)
1) +12 dmg ~ 11.9 DPS
2) +10 int ~ 10.4 DPS
3) +10 haste ~ 9.8 DPS
4) +10 crit ~ 8.8 DPS
5) +10 spirit ~ 6.5 DPS
6) +4 mp5 ~ 2.0 DP


The exact values vary a bit, intellect varies between the listed values and the values of spell damage.
The othe values do not fluctuate much.


Edit: I am well aware that the values fluctuate with gear and buffs.

Gear wise, from blues/Kara to BT/HS, you just get "more of all stats" and a ton of hit (that you don't need).
The change is from BT/HS to SP where you have small gains here and there and get drowned in haste.
That's the only reason I made a distinction there.

The values also vary with the fight setting. I used JoW, no (I)DS, 360s. And 13% CoE/S - not that it matters since all your spell will get the same curse multiplier next patch.


What I tried to give a weighting in a standard situation for a high and a low haste setting.
I know there is no "best standard" situation. Either I pick one and give a scale/order, or I don't.
I tried to give one.
I guess I should have added a huge bold "Warning! Not necessarily represenative guideline!" in caps or something.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput
This assumes Rune of Razorice and Slow for Torment unless noted as "No TtW".
More detailed at http://elitistjerks.com/923110-post2775.html

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.

 

Wizeowel

This really winds me up. You cannot make a preferred stats list such as this. Trying to put intellect in that list at all means says to me that you didn't understand or didn't even bother to read the above discussion. All the people who replied just now seem to think there is some grand unifying theory:
- Phren "I would think long and hard" what does that mean really? Gut feeling has no place here;
- Fujisaw "Haste is worthless to arcane mages" didn't read anything in this thread or bother to think there might be other fights past Mother Shahraz which need different weighting of stats;
- Roywyn, those numbers are for your gear, on Brutallus, with an innervate, why post that at all? Why not mention all the other assumptions you made? Divine spirit? JoW? Maledicted CoS?

The only thing you can say is: hit > damage > haste > crit which is nothing new and the same as for other casters. Here are some things we've covered in this thread which go against the notion that you can generalise:

1) The relative value of spirit by itself appears poor compared to other stats;
2) However, without a good measure of spirit, intellect will be weaker;
4) Intellect is more useful to stack on shorter fights;
5) Intellect is less useful to stack on longer fights, presuming there's no pausing in dps;
6) Intellect can be shown to be better than spelldamage or worse than haste under certain conditions.

Alvira, I already made a suggestion for rewriting section 2G in this post [Mage] Raiding as Arcane mage post 2.4 perhaps you missed it...

 

Goedel

I didn't respond to Alvira's proffered summary stat ordering earlier from fear that the frustration I share with Wizeowel might lead to an unconstructive or even rude post. But I must reiterate that any such simplification misses the point. As several have already tried to show, the correct answer on stat weights can only be in the form of "it depends". Even "hit > damage > haste > crit" doesn't necessarily hold, as one can easily, given what's available on endgame gear, reach stat balances where crit rating in fact comes into equilibrium with haste rating (or, in other words, would surpass it for the mage who blithely continues stacking haste and avoiding crit).

Whether by design or happy accident, Blizzard seems to have ended up providing an environment where none of the relevant stats simply dominates.

 

Deblin

My armory with many +int gems
WSS: MH first 4 boss (09-Jul-2008)

this should give u some idea

 

xiaoxin21

At BT level and above , this only holds true for arcane mages, Affliction locks and maybe shadow priest. All other classes haste is > spell damage or some different order.


1) is not correct. With IDS the value of spirit is increased to more than haste wearing sunwell gear.Also, the longer the fight the more value spirit will be.