grayrest

It's not optimal, but it's doable. The 2t5 bonus is worth ~200 dps when you get it, so if you're comfortable with the heavy consumable use for inferior dps, then your dps won't be embarassing but won't be superb either.

All discussions here are assuming you're potting on every cooldown--that you start the fight spamming AB and pot as soon as you're down 3000 mana and again on every cooldown.

You stack int and wear gear with spirit on it. If you regemmed all your gear with +int gems and used adepts+draenic, you'd have 321 mp5 I5SR when fully raid buffed.

 

Rounced

When I was raiding as Arc/Frost I got them all the time from our Druid tank. I would whisper him for one and if it was available and no healer had died he would hit me with it. Only encounter I could count on getting it though was for Brutallus.

I would never ask for one for one of our resto druids but in fights with transitions where our feral can pop out and innervate and where healers won't need it, it seems like a great thing to do to avoid it just being wasted and not used.

 

JaMMi

Re: Innervates.

If they're not going to be used otherwise, then sure get your druid friends to innervate you. As an arcane mage you not only benefit hugely from it (400% of my spirit regen as I stand in Shattrath after raid [buffed] 2468 per 5) but also you can turn the mana into damage ; and effectively "dump" the mana onto boss in the form of damage.

If raid mana is high, and an innervate is going to waste - then you wouldn't really be doing your job if you didn't have a druid on /r for quick innervate requests.

Times change ; I personally would never have imagined a day when mages were awarded innervates ; but when you remove prejudice and think about how many times an innervate isn't used... its almost a positive thing that now it can be used in a productive way.

 

JaMMi

I used mana oil on Teron tonight as a trial so I had 441 mp5 while casting. Its easily achievable ; the real skill is in using Rawr and your own testing to ensure that you don't gimp your damage output to achieve it.

 

Kavan

You can say that you can't generate optimum result if you don't know the fight duration. Another way to look at it is if you know what the optimum is under different durations you are better prepared to handle the reality. One thing one will notice is that optimum sequence does not change drastically when making small changes to fight duration. Most differences will occur as result of additional cooldowns becoming available.

I'll show an example analysis for my specific case using sequence reconstruction in Rawr. It is good to know at least an approximate fight duration. If you don't know whether it is going to be 3 minutes or 10 minutes then all bets are off. Let's say we're expecting a 5 minute fight. Then it is reasonable to be prepared for anything between 4-6 minutes. I'll show the sequence reconstructions as computed by Rawr and give an interpretation of them. In some cases you'll see some suboptimal suggestions which I'm still working on improving, but it's good enough to get a general sense.

Starting with 4 minutes the optimum sequence is:

So we start with Heroism burst at the start. One possible consideration when running this in real situation is threat which is not currently considered in the reconstruction. Goal here is to burn mana as fast as possible to get the pot/gem cooldowns going. Further AB burst until we have enough room for Evocation and a bit more to create a sizeable mana gap in anticipation of switch to dpm cycle which is mana negative. Main purpose of the switch to dpm cycle at this point is to prepare for the next AP+IV phase. After enough mana is recovered (or more importantly not burned with AB spam) it switches back to AB spam, and ends with AP+IV burst. You can see here a clear bug at the end as it runs out of mana during AP+IV, while it could move the final AB dpm cycle in front of it (this is a bug in the reconstruction, the cycle solution is guaranteed to have enough mana, it's just a matter of arranging the different cycles in temporal relationship).

Next if we look at 4:30 fight we get:

We have a similar structure. Starting with AP+IV burst, evocation, brief switches to AB dpm cycle to conserve mana and end with heroism burst. One thing that changed is the alignment of trinket. 4:30 allows for 3 uses of a 2 min trinket, so we see a change there. If we are planning for 5 minutes then in the 4:00 scenario we probably wouldn't realize in time that fight will be shorter than expected and we would use the trinket whenever it was ready. So that would be one source of suboptimal sequence as a result of unexpected change in fight duration. Other than that the structure is more or less the same. The AP+IV and Heroism bursts are switched, but that choice is more or less arbitrary.

Going on to 5 minute fight:

Again basically the same structure. For 5:30 we have:

First we notice the suboptimal placement of AB dpm cycle, more of it should be in front of Heroism. Another thing to notice is that this sequence is not really compatible with the plan we should use for 5 minute fight. The suggested order of major cooldowns is IV+Hex=>Heroism+AP+Hex=>IV+AP+Hex. We could rearrange the sequence into AP+IV+Hex=>IV+Hex=>Heroism+AP+Hex. That way we have a more similar structure, but we also see that longer fight duration allows a better variant of AP+IV desyncing and using both with the trinket. In 5 minute fight the IV is not ready yet when we have to use the trinket. Longer duration here allows us to wait with the trinket until IV is ready. Similar to the previous cases it is good to be aware of these nuances. As the fight goes on and we get better estimation of fight duration we can still change our plan. With this rearrangement the plans are more or less the same until the trinket is ready for the second time. At that point we have to make a decision on whether to delay with trinket to pair it with IV or just use it whenever it is ready. In my view it is better to play safe and assume shorter fight and use the trinket as soon as possible. We're balancing between cooldown stacking and the potential option that we won't even be able to use the cooldown if fight ends sooner than expected.

For end let's look at the 6 minute fight:

We see that this is more or less the same situation we had at 5:30 as no new cooldowns become available in this time frame.

Looking at all the examples we see that the big decisions concern cooldown stacking. Should I wait with the cooldown to stack it or use it now when it's ready. Other than this everything stays the same. Start with high mana burst to start the gem/pot cooldowns as soon as possible. After all mana cooldowns are going enter conservation mode anticipating the future bursts. This part is what requires the most experience to do right and has to be performed on the fly taking into consideration your actual external regeneration that is not under your control. In practice it's usually better to err on the side of conserving mana. As arcane it is very easy to burn mana. Even with the highest mana pools you can burn all your mana in about a minute. So until you're almost at the end just make sure that when mana pot/gem is coming ready you have enough room to use them as soon as they are available. After managing your mana becomes second nature then you can start worrying about the other decisions about how to stack cooldowns.

Overall I hope you got the impression that arcane is very flexible in terms of adjusting to uncertain fight duration. The plan remains more or less the same in all situations and as a result you can reestimate the remaining duration of the fight on the fly when you have a better estimate in hand. The key idea to take from this is to use AB spam on all cooldowns if appropriate and use your fillers for mana management in preparation of those bursts.

 

xiaoxin21

You also have to take into consideration the fact that due to the Spi buff, priest and druids are much much less likely to run OOM , reducing their need for innervates, in turn free up innervates for mages. Also I think you would get 500% regen rather than 400% after adding your own regen inside?

Another some point, If your AB stack drop,(after evocate etc), POM is a good way to build a first debuff.

 

Alvira

On the subject of arcane mages getting innervates.

Its still not very common for arcane mages to get innervates. But the changes in patch 2.4 was beneficial to all mana users, including druids. And now, from what we understand, there are very few mana users, including druids themselves that are likely to run dry on mana and actually need the innervate. So, the rationale is that since there isn't anyone that absolutely needs it, including the duird himself, innervate becomes a luxury option.

Amongs all classes and specs, arcane mages are probably the most mana hungry, and the ones most capable of making good use of the excess mana. If you innervate a restro druid, who didn't need it, and could have functioned fine without the innervate, its largely wasted. He wouldn't have run out of mana even without the innervate. But innervate the arcane mage, and you are going to get that much more damage out of him.

Hence, the proposition behind giving innervates to arcane mages.

Of course, in practise, this seems to be a luxury and most arcane mages don't get it. Because even though its the arcane mage who is in the best position to utilise and convert all that mana to damage. In the end, most raid boss fights are not designed to be such DPS races that every last drop of DPS needs to squeezed out of every single DPSer. So, short of the druid innervating his mage buddy as a personal request, its not really something people take for granted.

Its only for fights like Brutullas, where every drop of DPS does need to be squeezed out. Then it matters, and arcane mages are likely to get innervates. Especially if you wiped at 2%, and you are just looking for anyway at all to increase raid DPS. That's when the arcane mage pipes up and says "innevate me and I can do that much more damage, and the raid leader orders it to be done".

I still mention it because it represents one extreme end of the extremely well supported arcane mage. I am not one of these fortunate mages (we have a lack of restro raiding druids). But there are other guilds which may have lots of druids. And these instances of arcane mages getting innervates do exist. You do see wws of arcane mages that received innervates. And because theorycraft covers maximising DPS. So, this is one way in which arcane DPS is maximised though it may be an extreme case.

 

Alvira

A lot depends on the degree of support given to the arcane mage. But generally, 4 minute fights are perfectly managable for arcane mages at T5/T6 level with just one shammy or one SP in group. With both shammy and SP in group, I think 6 minute fights are comfortable. 8 minute fights are going to be challenging, though I venture to say that there aren't that many 8 minute boss fights. Certainly most of the fights in MH and BT are short, around the 4 minute level.

The DPS capability of arcane mages depend directly on how much they can spam AB. And as raid leader, if enough mana support can be given to your arcane mages. Their DPS will definitley be very good. Taking me as an example, as a T6 level geared raider. On a theoratical basis, if I am allowed to spam arcane blast 100% of the time without moving, then based on Rawr, I would be doing 2000 DPS just by doing that. In practise, because of movement, etc, arcane power, COS on boss, etc etc, this will vary. But it gives a ballpark idea how much an arcane mage can do just spamming his most powerful spell.

You may have a not as well geared arcane mage. But as long as he has two piece T5. and you feed him enough raid mana support so that he really just do nothing but cast AB. I assure you his DPS will be good, not just good, it should be great.

I wonder if I should add on another portion where we detail and discuss how to push arcane mage DPS for every single notable MH/BT fight. (not sure if its worth it putting in SSC/TK fights). But if I did, you will find that arcane mages with good support should and will be able to spam AB close to 100% of the time for most MH/BT fights and do very competitive good DPS.

The biggest DPS stumbling blocks to a raid progressing through MH and BT is mainly ROS though I think. Most other T6 fights are execution fights. People not dying is more important than trying to zerg down the boss.

 

Etherealz

I found that our druids weren't really in need of innervate on the fights which I play arcane. The feral wasn't using his at all and the resto druid just wasn't mana potting. I made the offer to give the resto druid mana pots in return for innervates. The healing class that needs the most mana support at this point has about 130 spirit (paladin) and it's really not worth innervating them. An arcane mage with an innervate make would likely make the boss die faster than the amount of time a paladin could heal with the same innervate (pure speculation).

 

Wizeowel

We've had free mana pots available from guild bank for raids for some time now and I'm still wary of asking for innervates. I just somehow feels wrong even though I know it could add a lot to my damage on many fights.

 

thedopefishlives

The question to ask yourself is, who's getting it? If nobody's getting the Innervate, it's a wasted Innervate, no matter how you slice it. The fact of the matter is, an arcane mage can turn the mana from Innervate into damage far more efficiently than just about any other class/spec out there. If your Innervates are going to waste, it's better to dump one on a Mage than to just let it sit there.

 

Wizeowel

I've been wondering about this myself. Perhaps you can explain?

The AB cycles option seems to assume you want to do the old trick of dropping the debuff while casting your next AB. How do you reconcile this with needing to spend another ~8 seconds before being able to AB spam again? To take example from your post above.

01:23.770: Arcane Blast (16121 mana)
01:35.200: ABAM3FrBCC (13121 mana)
02:19.460: Arcane Blast (14636 mana)

The spell cycles proves mathematically that ABAM3FrBCC is the ideal foil for AB spam, but how much value does this proof have when it is impossible to execute? How can Rawr actually calculate AB ramp-up times when the spell-cycles calculation doesn't take account of casting order? Or does it?

 

Leshya

As my guild moves up further into Black Temple, I'm curious as to how I can keep my 40/0/21 spec aloft without access to Sunwell tier pieces. Is it not worth it to go for the 4 piece T6 bonus as this spec? What are the most optimal pieces of T5 to use to keep the two set bonus when in T6 content?

 

◊ forostie

Gloves and Shoulders are the pick - mainly because T6 Gloves really only offer hit which you should be capped at; and the Shoulders because the other available helms, chest pieces and legs are better than the alternative shoulders compared to the other set pieces alternatives.

Arcane raiding has a totally different face to what it used to - I was Arcane about a year ago when I first got 2pc T5 for the pure fact that I was not a tailor, and it was alot easier to gear to. Now it seems the converse is true, that its actually harder to gear an Arcane Mage due to the effects of haste and overload of hit on spec-common pieces.

<dylanm_> I knew it wasn't true when I didn't see it on worldofraids.

 

Alvira

I agree with Forestie. I use T5 Shoulders and gloves myself. The gap between T6 gear and the other T5 pieces is bigger. I would suggest still going for some T6 where you can. But 4 piece T6 is not necessarily the holy grail you absolutely must have. If you are truely spamming AB most of the time, then the 4 piece bonus gives much less benefit to you because your filler spells which benefit from that will make up only a small percentage of your total damage.

However, having said that T6 is still nice to get if only because they are itemized very well for an arcane mage. They have high int, spirit, plus +dmg and stuff. Furthermore, the 2 piece bonus gives you more mana to spam AB with.

The only problem is they often have quite a bit of +hit as well. I purposely take one less point in my arcane talents for +hit (so they only give me +8% hit) because its so easy to get +hit in T6 gear. Plus, it closes the gap in +hit a bit between my filler spells, my POM pyroblast and my arcane spells.

Besides, if you eventually do Sunwell, you will be getting 4 pc T6 combined with 2 pc T5 soon enough.

 

Leshya

I also have another question!! Is there a certain target amount of damage that I should aim to keep at, and then start focusing on int/spirit?

 

Alvira

I don't think so. As you get better gear in every slot, everything will go up, including int, spirit and dmg. Even crit will go up too. Since you only need to keep two piece T5, every other slot can be upgraded as and when you get better gear.

Personally, I think the mages with spellstrike set and spellfire set have a tougher time. This is because they start initially at a relatively high +dmg, +crit level with those two sets. But with much too little stats to be able to really spam AB. And yet, everytime they want to upgrade, they find that they will initially lose damage because they are breaking up the sets and losing the set bonus. But you can't stay in limbo in spellfire and spellstrike forever, you will never progress. So at some stage, you will have to bite the bullet and replace them.

Those that didn't get those sets have less problems and can easily just upgrade every slot save the two T5 slots.

 

Leshya

Also, a mage on my realm forums just suggested to drop haste gems in favor of crit gems...what do you guys think about this? Also, is it better to have +40 spell damage on your weapon rather than Sunfire (only affecting arcane), or Soulfrost (only affecting filler frostbolts)?

 

Alvira

In Part 2G, I brought up the topic of haste as a point to discuss.

While patch 2.4 has made arcane mages at least able to benefit from haste. I am personally still not convinced that it is a stat that Arcane mages would love. Even though theorycraft seems to point that it is quite close in value to +dmg. Key reason being that adding haste just runs us out of mana faster. So, there is a certain cost to adding haste.

Adding crit, on the other hand, is adding extra damage without running you out of mana faster. I believe the value of haste is tied to your ability to sustain AB spam. If you can add haste over crit and still keep up the AB spam, then haste is better than crit. But if you are finding yourself having to lapse into filler spells all the time due to mana issues, then I question the value of adding even more haste over crit in that kind of situation.

I hope others can chim in with their experiences, and thoughts on this. Especially Kavan, since he is the expert behind Rawr. And he has a fair amount of haste on his gear. I don't have any on mine.

I will be happy to amend my OP portion part 2G on haste if we can get a common agreement on this point after having discussed it fully.

 

Kavan

Enabling AB cycles does not force it to use overlap cycles, it just allows it to. It will pick whatever gives better results.

For the second part of your question, first ABAM3FrBCC is ideal in that very specific case. The optimum filler will depend on exact spec and buffs available. I've seen examples where not using overlap cycles is optimum.

Rawr assumes that transitions can be made at any point and you're correct that spell cycle solver does not take account of casting order (well SMP does a bit, but not in this sense). While in reality you can't make transition at any point, there are points where you can make a transition without any ramp-up cost. For that specific example:

AB spam-...-AB-AM-FrB-AB(overlap)-AM-AB-AM-AB-AM-FrB-AB(overlap)-...-AB(overlap)-AM-AB-AM-AB-AM-AB spam-...

So you can see there exists a point in the overlap cycle where you can seamlessly transition from AB spam to overlap cycle and back. There is no extra cost to it. Similarly if the solution was a mix of AB spam and FrB then what you want to do in practice is weave the FrB in. Basically when interpreting the solution you have to find a way to make the transitions without introducing any extra costs.



Regarding haste, it is in my view not a good stat for arcane. However it is placed on most great items and as a result we are forced to make use of it. If I had an option I'd convert all haste on my gear to equivalent dmg and int.