[Mage] Raiding as Arcane mage post 2.4 - Page 3

xiaoxin21 · 05/15/08, 9:21 PM

Originally Posted by JaMMi

Re: Innervates.

Times change ; I personally would never have imagined a day when mages were awarded innervates way.

You also have to take into consideration the fact that due to the Spi buff, priest and druids are much much less likely to run OOM , reducing their need for innervates, in turn free up innervates for mages. Also I think you would get 500% regen rather than 400% after adding your own regen inside?

Another some point, If your AB stack drop,(after evocate etc), POM is a good way to build a first debuff.

Alvira · 05/15/08, 9:51 PM

On the subject of arcane mages getting innervates.

Its still not very common for arcane mages to get innervates. But the changes in patch 2.4 was beneficial to all mana users, including druids. And now, from what we understand, there are very few mana users, including druids themselves that are likely to run dry on mana and actually need the innervate. So, the rationale is that since there isn't anyone that absolutely needs it, including the duird himself, innervate becomes a luxury option.

Amongs all classes and specs, arcane mages are probably the most mana hungry, and the ones most capable of making good use of the excess mana. If you innervate a restro druid, who didn't need it, and could have functioned fine without the innervate, its largely wasted. He wouldn't have run out of mana even without the innervate. But innervate the arcane mage, and you are going to get that much more damage out of him.

Hence, the proposition behind giving innervates to arcane mages.

Of course, in practise, this seems to be a luxury and most arcane mages don't get it. Because even though its the arcane mage who is in the best position to utilise and convert all that mana to damage. In the end, most raid boss fights are not designed to be such DPS races that every last drop of DPS needs to squeezed out of every single DPSer. So, short of the druid innervating his mage buddy as a personal request, its not really something people take for granted.

Its only for fights like Brutullas, where every drop of DPS does need to be squeezed out. Then it matters, and arcane mages are likely to get innervates. Especially if you wiped at 2%, and you are just looking for anyway at all to increase raid DPS. That's when the arcane mage pipes up and says "innevate me and I can do that much more damage, and the raid leader orders it to be done".

I still mention it because it represents one extreme end of the extremely well supported arcane mage. I am not one of these fortunate mages (we have a lack of restro raiding druids). But there are other guilds which may have lots of druids. And these instances of arcane mages getting innervates do exist. You do see wws of arcane mages that received innervates. And because theorycraft covers maximising DPS. So, this is one way in which arcane DPS is maximised though it may be an extreme case.

Alvira · 05/15/08, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by Dorvan

I realize that this issue is always thorny, but as a raid leader I'm interested in the following:

How does Arcane/Frost compare to fire in terms of DPS for various combinations of support and fight length. For example, with no support, with just a shadow priest, with just a shaman, and with both, what kind of DPS comparison can one expect in T6 level gear on:

a 4 minute fight? 6 minute fight? 8 minute fight?

A lot depends on the degree of support given to the arcane mage. But generally, 4 minute fights are perfectly managable for arcane mages at T5/T6 level with just one shammy or one SP in group. With both shammy and SP in group, I think 6 minute fights are comfortable. 8 minute fights are going to be challenging, though I venture to say that there aren't that many 8 minute boss fights. Certainly most of the fights in MH and BT are short, around the 4 minute level.

The DPS capability of arcane mages depend directly on how much they can spam AB. And as raid leader, if enough mana support can be given to your arcane mages. Their DPS will definitley be very good. Taking me as an example, as a T6 level geared raider. On a theoratical basis, if I am allowed to spam arcane blast 100% of the time without moving, then based on Rawr, I would be doing 2000 DPS just by doing that. In practise, because of movement, etc, arcane power, COS on boss, etc etc, this will vary. But it gives a ballpark idea how much an arcane mage can do just spamming his most powerful spell.

You may have a not as well geared arcane mage. But as long as he has two piece T5. and you feed him enough raid mana support so that he really just do nothing but cast AB. I assure you his DPS will be good, not just good, it should be great.

I wonder if I should add on another portion where we detail and discuss how to push arcane mage DPS for every single notable MH/BT fight. (not sure if its worth it putting in SSC/TK fights). But if I did, you will find that arcane mages with good support should and will be able to spam AB close to 100% of the time for most MH/BT fights and do very competitive good DPS.

The biggest DPS stumbling blocks to a raid progressing through MH and BT is mainly ROS though I think. Most other T6 fights are execution fights. People not dying is more important than trying to zerg down the boss.

Etherealz · 05/16/08, 3:11 AM

Originally Posted by Daedalix

Innervate stuffs.

I found that our druids weren't really in need of innervate on the fights which I play arcane. The feral wasn't using his at all and the resto druid just wasn't mana potting. I made the offer to give the resto druid mana pots in return for innervates. The healing class that needs the most mana support at this point has about 130 spirit (paladin) and it's really not worth innervating them. An arcane mage with an innervate make would likely make the boss die faster than the amount of time a paladin could heal with the same innervate (pure speculation).

• Wizeowel · 05/16/08, 9:58 AM

Originally Posted by Etherealz

I made the offer to give the resto druid mana pots in return for innervates.

We've had free mana pots available from guild bank for raids for some time now and I'm still wary of asking for innervates. I just somehow feels wrong even though I know it could add a lot to my damage on many fights.

thedopefishlives · 05/16/08, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Wizeowel

We've had free mana pots available from guild bank for raids for some time now and I'm still wary of asking for innervates. I just somehow feels wrong even though I know it could add a lot to my damage on many fights.

The question to ask yourself is, who's getting it? If nobody's getting the Innervate, it's a wasted Innervate, no matter how you slice it. The fact of the matter is, an arcane mage can turn the mana from Innervate into damage far more efficiently than just about any other class/spec out there. If your Innervates are going to waste, it's better to dump one on a Mage than to just let it sit there.

• Wizeowel · 05/16/08, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Kavan

What you want is a mix of AB spam and FrB. To force Rawr to give you such a solution (meaning that it is theoretically worse than what it would otherwise give you), just disable the AB cycles option.

I've been wondering about this myself. Perhaps you can explain?

The AB cycles option seems to assume you want to do the old trick of dropping the debuff while casting your next AB. How do you reconcile this with needing to spend another ~8 seconds before being able to AB spam again? To take example from your post above.

01:23.770: Arcane Blast (16121 mana)
01:35.200: ABAM3FrBCC (13121 mana)
02:19.460: Arcane Blast (14636 mana)

The spell cycles proves mathematically that ABAM3FrBCC is the ideal foil for AB spam, but how much value does this proof have when it is impossible to execute? How can Rawr actually calculate AB ramp-up times when the spell-cycles calculation doesn't take account of casting order? Or does it?

Leshya · 05/16/08, 11:53 AM

As my guild moves up further into Black Temple, I'm curious as to how I can keep my 40/0/21 spec aloft without access to Sunwell tier pieces. Is it not worth it to go for the 4 piece T6 bonus as this spec? What are the most optimal pieces of T5 to use to keep the two set bonus when in T6 content?

♦ forostie · 05/16/08, 12:33 PM

Gloves and Shoulders are the pick - mainly because T6 Gloves really only offer hit which you should be capped at; and the Shoulders because the other available helms, chest pieces and legs are better than the alternative shoulders compared to the other set pieces alternatives.

Arcane raiding has a totally different face to what it used to - I was Arcane about a year ago when I first got 2pc T5 for the pure fact that I was not a tailor, and it was alot easier to gear to. Now it seems the converse is true, that its actually harder to gear an Arcane Mage due to the effects of haste and overload of hit on spec-common pieces.

Alvira · 05/16/08, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Leshya

As my guild moves up further into Black Temple, I'm curious as to how I can keep my 40/0/21 spec aloft without access to Sunwell tier pieces. Is it not worth it to go for the 4 piece T6 bonus as this spec? What are the most optimal pieces of T5 to use to keep the two set bonus when in T6 content?

I agree with Forestie. I use T5 Shoulders and gloves myself. The gap between T6 gear and the other T5 pieces is bigger. I would suggest still going for some T6 where you can. But 4 piece T6 is not necessarily the holy grail you absolutely must have. If you are truely spamming AB most of the time, then the 4 piece bonus gives much less benefit to you because your filler spells which benefit from that will make up only a small percentage of your total damage.

However, having said that T6 is still nice to get if only because they are itemized very well for an arcane mage. They have high int, spirit, plus +dmg and stuff. Furthermore, the 2 piece bonus gives you more mana to spam AB with.

The only problem is they often have quite a bit of +hit as well. I purposely take one less point in my arcane talents for +hit (so they only give me +8% hit) because its so easy to get +hit in T6 gear. Plus, it closes the gap in +hit a bit between my filler spells, my POM pyroblast and my arcane spells.

Besides, if you eventually do Sunwell, you will be getting 4 pc T6 combined with 2 pc T5 soon enough.

Leshya · 05/16/08, 1:18 PM

I also have another question!! Is there a certain target amount of damage that I should aim to keep at, and then start focusing on int/spirit?

Alvira · 05/16/08, 1:29 PM

I don't think so. As you get better gear in every slot, everything will go up, including int, spirit and dmg. Even crit will go up too. Since you only need to keep two piece T5, every other slot can be upgraded as and when you get better gear.

Personally, I think the mages with spellstrike set and spellfire set have a tougher time. This is because they start initially at a relatively high +dmg, +crit level with those two sets. But with much too little stats to be able to really spam AB. And yet, everytime they want to upgrade, they find that they will initially lose damage because they are breaking up the sets and losing the set bonus. But you can't stay in limbo in spellfire and spellstrike forever, you will never progress. So at some stage, you will have to bite the bullet and replace them.

Those that didn't get those sets have less problems and can easily just upgrade every slot save the two T5 slots.

Leshya · 05/16/08, 1:44 PM

Also, a mage on my realm forums just suggested to drop haste gems in favor of crit gems...what do you guys think about this? Also, is it better to have +40 spell damage on your weapon rather than Sunfire (only affecting arcane), or Soulfrost (only affecting filler frostbolts)?

Alvira · 05/16/08, 1:58 PM

In Part 2G, I brought up the topic of haste as a point to discuss.

While patch 2.4 has made arcane mages at least able to benefit from haste. I am personally still not convinced that it is a stat that Arcane mages would love. Even though theorycraft seems to point that it is quite close in value to +dmg. Key reason being that adding haste just runs us out of mana faster. So, there is a certain cost to adding haste.

Adding crit, on the other hand, is adding extra damage without running you out of mana faster. I believe the value of haste is tied to your ability to sustain AB spam. If you can add haste over crit and still keep up the AB spam, then haste is better than crit. But if you are finding yourself having to lapse into filler spells all the time due to mana issues, then I question the value of adding even more haste over crit in that kind of situation.

I hope others can chim in with their experiences, and thoughts on this. Especially Kavan, since he is the expert behind Rawr. And he has a fair amount of haste on his gear. I don't have any on mine.

I will be happy to amend my OP portion part 2G on haste if we can get a common agreement on this point after having discussed it fully.

Kavan · 05/16/08, 2:36 PM

Originally Posted by Wizeowel

I've been wondering about this myself. Perhaps you can explain?

The AB cycles option seems to assume you want to do the old trick of dropping the debuff while casting your next AB. How do you reconcile this with needing to spend another ~8 seconds before being able to AB spam again? To take example from your post above.

01:23.770: Arcane Blast (16121 mana)
01:35.200: ABAM3FrBCC (13121 mana)
02:19.460: Arcane Blast (14636 mana)

The spell cycles proves mathematically that ABAM3FrBCC is the ideal foil for AB spam, but how much value does this proof have when it is impossible to execute? How can Rawr actually calculate AB ramp-up times when the spell-cycles calculation doesn't take account of casting order? Or does it?

Enabling AB cycles does not force it to use overlap cycles, it just allows it to. It will pick whatever gives better results.

For the second part of your question, first ABAM3FrBCC is ideal in that very specific case. The optimum filler will depend on exact spec and buffs available. I've seen examples where not using overlap cycles is optimum.

Rawr assumes that transitions can be made at any point and you're correct that spell cycle solver does not take account of casting order (well SMP does a bit, but not in this sense). While in reality you can't make transition at any point, there are points where you can make a transition without any ramp-up cost. For that specific example:

AB spam-...-AB-AM-FrB-AB(overlap)-AM-AB-AM-AB-AM-FrB-AB(overlap)-...-AB(overlap)-AM-AB-AM-AB-AM-AB spam-...

So you can see there exists a point in the overlap cycle where you can seamlessly transition from AB spam to overlap cycle and back. There is no extra cost to it. Similarly if the solution was a mix of AB spam and FrB then what you want to do in practice is weave the FrB in. Basically when interpreting the solution you have to find a way to make the transitions without introducing any extra costs.

Regarding haste, it is in my view not a good stat for arcane. However it is placed on most great items and as a result we are forced to make use of it. If I had an option I'd convert all haste on my gear to equivalent dmg and int.