xiaoxin21

Alvira you didnt include the dps you are casting frostbolt rather than AB in your calculations. The 15584 is based on a calculation of standing there doing nothing for 7.8sec and casting AB

 

tommynt

Problem I got with [Serpent-Coil Braid] is that I usually CDs eraly on to have them rdy later again a second time so - I d either have to Spam for like 1 minute AB without Trinkets to stack up everything after that (maybe good in a short fight) or I ll just have the +dmg when Manastone cd is free (Probably better in every calculation) but then hit is kinda useless, crit scales bad and ya there s some more Mana and the ~ 30 sd - better then blessing deck? Calculations are really hard as Arkanmage ....

All in alle I really think that there s no Big difference in all the vailable discussed trinkets

3 Questions I wana have discussed:
As 2 T5 is a "must", isnt 4 T5 just the best for us Arkan mages? Even wehen T6 available? I dont see any T6 Items be 35 sd better then the T5 equivalent - do you? Even when assuming the sd Buff is only up 80% of time T6 d still have to be about 30 sd better then T5
And considering that - dont I look dumb in T5 dress in Front of Brutalus?

There was geming Spirit mentioned, does some1 really do it? Somehow I got really lots of blue Sockets and all got 4 sd Bonus so taking socket Bonus seems really like a good Idea - so gem 10 Spirit or the 6sd/7HP gem

What about Mitigation?
last WWS logs shows 4,5% mittigated dmg for AB and 15-20% for firespells
MAN THATS A FREAKING LOT, it s like playing with 0 Hit -every1 d laugh at me ...
It s less for Bosses with curses up all time (our warlocks are bad and dont (allways) curse on trash ... and probably even forget sometimes on bosses like supremus or Akama with dmg breaks
U could gem for less Mitigation in Blue (green) sockets - what u think bout that?

 

Alvira

opps, figures. I know I missed out something lol. Ok, I will check my Rawr on how much DPS my frostbolts would be if I was arcane/frost spec.

ok, my Frostbolt with the same gear is 1246 DPS.

So, the DPS difference is 1998 minus 1246 = 752 DPS.

So, 7.8 seconds of that difference is 5865 dmg. Plus the passive 2400 dmg difference, it equals 8265 dmg.

Think its quite close now. Would have to really calculate the total damage that Hex's activation brings to the table during its two bouts of activation. Bearing in mind that arcane power is only 15 seconds too, not 20 seconds.

 

Roywyn

As someone said, mana is less efficient than you think.
You shouldn't compare AB spam to doing nothing, you should compare AB spam to FrB spam (or (ABFrB)3FrB2, whatever your DPM rotation of choice is).
Calculate the mana/sec cost increase, the DPS output increase and then calculate their quotient that gives you your "damage per addiitonal point of mana".

Rawr does that for you already:
Hover over your DPM cycle of choice (most likely FrB spam or (ABFrB)3FrB2), and it shows a number called "AB Spam tradeoff".
In BT gear or higher, it's usually 2.6 to 3 damage per mana. Around 2.6 with CoE, around 3.0 without CoE.

Your estimate of "2k mana = 15k damage" is far too high. Expect 6k, 7k additional damage at most.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput
This assumes Rune of Razorice and Slow for Torment unless noted as "No TtW".
More detailed at http://elitistjerks.com/923110-post2775.html

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.

 

Light4

followup to tommynt:
Stats value for arcane mages
I have read a lot about int being better or at least equivalent to +dmg because of prolonged AB spam and the importance of mp5 and so on.

my 1st question: are there some rules of thumb which allow me to judge items for their usefulness like there are for firemages?
i.e. some:
1 int = xx dps
1 dmg = yy dps

The interesting stats are obviously dmg/crit/haste/int/spi/mp5. Hit is obvious and easy enough to be maxed anyway and the 4% extra we need for frostbolts to be at hitcap are probably neglible concerning 80%+ of total damage coming from AB-Spam. if missing x% hit for FrB, the timeaverage dmg dealt less is then

0.2*0.04*(dmg FrB) = 0.008*(1250dps (number taken from Alvira)) = 10 dps for which we would need about 50hit, i.e. 5hit for 1 dps which seems to me rather expensive considering the item budget and also counter-productive considering we are aiming at 100% AB

my 2nd question:
I have found it viable to use AB/improved AM (and AM on CC) as a dpm cycle, when JoW is up, because with SPriest in group I actually gain a lot mana from that, plus I have the full threat reduction and hit from the arcane tree. Of course, this implies 50/0/11 which I still have, because of spellfire set (I consider switching to 40/0/21 once I get Anetheron's Noose). What do you think?

 

xiaoxin21

Ultimately, the difference between SCB,Hex and SAS is not big. You should wear SAS if you dont have SCB or Hex but not over them.

There are also fight situations to consider which mostly will skew towards having a on effect massive spell damage increase than a passive increase.

 

Mynak

Using this set of gear modeled for Brutallus on Rawr with all Int/Spi gems in all matching slots (exceptions listed below)
[Brooch of Nature's Mercy]
[Mantle of Tirisfal]
[Cloak of the Illidari Council]
[Robes of the Tempest]
[Bracers of the Tempest] (+12 dmg gem)
[Gloves of Tirisfal]
[Anetheron's Noose]
[Slippers of the Seacaller]
[Ring of Ancient Knowledge]
[Band of the Eternal Sage]
[Serpent-Coil Braid]
[Hex Shrunken Head]
[Tempest of Chaos]
[Chronicle of Dark Secrets]
[Wand of the Demonsoul] (5 haste/6 dmg)

Using the T5 Helm and Pants has a ~20 dps difference on straight AB spam vs T6 Helm and Pants. Assuming well timed Innervates, Mana Tide, and Evocation, straight AB spam should be doable when fully raid buffed.

Note - this set of gear does assume having 2pT6 at all times for the extra Evocation so 2pT5 and 2pT6 might be better than just 4pT5

 

xiaoxin21

This is actually a feature I hope to see in RAWR, much like EP for enh Shamans.

Concept wise it is not hard, simply record down current dps and increase dmg/crit/haste/int/spi/mp5/hit by 1 point one at a time, see the corresponding increase in dps then normalise it against spell damage. It is already possible to do it manually but tedious.

For example , 1 spell damage = 1.2dps increase, 1 hit =2 dps increae. so 1 spell =1.66 hit etc

 

Light4

With our normal setup (spriest, usually also a heal-shaman) and switching Evo-Weapons (Staff&Wand) I am at approx. >90% Mana after non-2xT6 evocation when running <5% before, so the 2xT6 Bonus might not be _that_ important.

 

Spuddelkopf

Well, this already kind of exists. If in the comparisons window you select the Item Budget chart found waaay down in the list of charts you see how much dps you would get if you had 10 "item budget points" (like 10 hit rating or 11.7 dmg) to spend on different stats.

 

xiaoxin21

Yup I tried it and it shows how much dps each 10 stat points gives,swapping out some hit so hit will get considered. I took the values and normalise it along spell damage and it gives me. With imp DS, spi will be better than crit but I didnt include it.

2.15hit:1.15int:1spell:0.97haste:0.823crit:0.75spi:0.20 4mp5

I was hoping this conversion to compare with a base stat will be available as well.

 

diag

Rawr always shows impossible cast sequence for me, e.g. 3 "IV+Hex" in 5 min .

As my guild doesnt run T5 any more, and I dont have SCB, I am using SUC to stack with Hex (as Fireangel suggested):

3x AB, drum, 10sec AB or till SUC procs, AB IV Hex, AB spam.

I am not sure SUC is a good trinket, I usually can get it proc before or during 1st AP, quite impossible for 2nd (unless some one can linke me some UI to track internal CD), and I tend to use AB spam when SUC proc, FrB spam when it is down.

 

Kaylee

One thing I haven't read much about is how an arcane mage can get the best use out of Presence of Mind. I very rarely see it cast in raids and all of the people I've asked who play an arcane mage have just shrugged vaguely. Are there any thoughts from the theorycrafters here that I've missed?

With any kind of arcane/fire build I assume you'd use it to toss out a quick Pyroblast, but what about with some flavour of arcane/frost? My thinking is that it's best to use it for the first Arcane Blast and get it stacked faster, but would using it on a Frostbolt provide noticeably better DPS/DPM? How about for a deep arcane mage without any Frostbolt or Fireball improving talents? In a more movement heavy fight is it better to save Presence of Mind to fire an instant Arcane Blast and keep the debuff stack active while you reposition?

Or is Presence of Mind in a raid build nothing more than a 'filler' talent you're forced to take to get Arcane Instability and Arcane Power?

 

Azzuro

I'd use it with AB at the beginning of the fight, as AB is low threat and you will start stacking the AB debuff faster. If it comes up again I'd use it with Frostbolt because of the better DPM in an Arcane/Frost build.

 

◊ manly

Back in the day I was playing arcane, I always waited for clearcasting to use my POM. It wasn't that much more complex than that. Of course, during AP. You either move AP activation around until you get a clearcast proc, or you hope your best that clearcast procs during AP, and if it doesn't, then finish your AP-rotation with POM.

"Did the last bastion of arcane hope give up to the FFB gods ?"

please fix rolling deep wounds.

 

Alvira

For any arcane fire builds, yeah, use it in conjunction with pyroblast.

For everything else. I would suggest using it with arcane blast as a ramp up to 3 stack (use it on your first cast because that takes the longest). Reducing your ramp up time is always a good thing. If you are not using it during ramp up, you can also use it to cast one more AB on the run so that you keep the AB 3 stacks up.

 

Jynxa

Another use I rarely see mentioned is an instant polymorph.
Naturally not needed when everything goes according to plan, but it's when things go sour that it can make quite a difference if that broken sheep gets dealt with before it eats a healer or uses a nasty ability on a tank.

For bossfights it's indeed either Pyroblast (when specced for it), faster ramp up or preventing dropping the AB stack on the move.

 

Light4

I just ran my actual equip through rawr and come to the following item values:

10int = 9.32dps
11.7 dmg = 7.97 (=6.81dps/10dmg)
10 haste = 5.89
10 crit = 5.66
10 spi = 5.49
4 mp5 = 2.37
10hit (I'm capped) = 1.12


I am kind of surprised to find Int scale THAT good compared to +dmg and spi being comparable to crit and haste.
Are these numbers safe and reasonable or do you think something might be wrong with some parameters? I feel kinda reluctant to invest a lot of gems to resocket just to find it is not the dps increase I hoped.

 

Wizeowel

About PoM: since you want to use up 3k mana as soon as possible so that you can pop a gem/SCB without wasting, the ideal time to use this is the first cast of the fight.

About int gems. You can take the pragmatic approach, Light4, and put intellect gems in your T5 gear and haste/dmg gems in any gear which you might also use for a fire build.

 

Omatre

If you think of it this way:
I just ran my actual equip through rawr and come to the following item values:

10int = 9.32dps
11.7 dmg = 7.97 (=6.81dps/10dmg)
10 haste = 5.89
10 crit = 5.66
10 spi = 5.49
4 mp5 = 2.37
10hit (I'm capped) = 1.12


The reason INT has such a heavy weight in this is because it does benefit all aspects of a mage.
When you throw on Blessing of Kings, you get a free 10% to that Int.

You don't get 10% more spell dmg, its 10% to all base stats. Spell damage is not a base stat, thats
why INT + spirit result the way they do. Now, if Kings affected spell damage, then it'd probably sway the
results more towards SD yet again, but that'd make it disgustingly overpowered as a buff then.

Here's my suggestion, don't regem everything. But a lot of us got into the habit of just shoving +9/12 dmg
gems into any color slot. Blue slots are the kicker, as Shadowsong Amythest are just weak. Its a PITA to consider
the concept of having to farm heroic SV, but the +spell dmg +int gem that drops in there (6 sp dmg 4 int to be exact) is probably a great alternative to the normal 12 sp dmg gem for blue slots. as it will give you a slight benefit in both categories same as the +int + spirit (and this one matches sockets) gem from heroics.

I have personally moved out 1-2 gems in favor of 10 INT, and 12 sp dmg. The end result is, I got approx 300-350 more mana, which in turn gave me more mp5 while casting, making my longevity scale, damage went down slightly, but in the long run, I can spam more. Even with IV + Bloodlustr/Heroism, I can spam pretty well with just pot/gem checks asap.

 

Clanked

Why not regem everything?

That was the toughest thing to break away from when deciding to go arcane, but I trusted rawr and went straight INT/SP gems.

I know the general consensus is don't regem everything, but why not? I even run Flask of Distilled Wisdom.
Personally I love having just under 16k mana. In my experience it works out just fine.

 

Saizul

I'm really interested in the idea of gemming for intel / spirit over +dmg, a fairly new concept to me.

My question would be, what is the best way to approach this?
There are a few options...

1) The traditional method...
+12 dmg in most sockets
+6dmg / 7 stam gems in two sockets, to satisfy the meta
+5crit / 6dmg or +5hit / 6dmg in a yellow socket, if the hit is needed, or if it can be used to complete a socket bonus along with a blue

2) Stack intel...
+10 int gems in all slots
fill 2 blue sockets for the meta

3) Stack spirit...
+10 spirit gems in all sockets

4) Satisfy socket bonuses...
+10 int in yellow sockets
+10 spirit in blues
+12 dmg in reds

Not all of these are necessarily viable, or smart, but they present some interesting questions to me. As discussed, the idea behind arcane is to generate and burn as much mana as possible, aiming towards 100% sustained AB spam.
Assuming 2t5 and a maintained 3 stack, AB spam costs 627 mana per cast, or 2090 mp5.
Assuming a decent gear set of 2t5 and t6 level gear, we can expect a mage to have 10-15 sockets and a meta, allowing a range from 150 intel / spirit to 156 +dmg to be gained from socketing choices.

In trying to maximize DPS over a fight, the traditional approach stacks damage to increase the effectiveness of each spell hit, but leaves a mage in BT / Hyjal gear sitting around 600 intel and 300 spirit self-buffed (around 180-200 mp5 while casting). These stats will scale with kings, mark, and spirit buff, but still leave us in a position where AB spam cannot possible be sustained 100% through a 5-6 minute fight.

It seems like the new thought, with gemming for intel and spirit, is to maximize regem and approach 100% AB spam in these longer fights. In terms of mp5, the ideal relationship between intel and spirit for maximizing regen is that S=2*I, that is, your spirit should be double your intel. And of course, regen scales directly with spirit, while only by the aquare root of intel. Clearly a raiding mage will never reach this S = 2I relationship, so by far the most valuable stat for increasing mp5 will always be spirit.

However, while intel does not increase passive regen as dramatically, it does have the benefit of increasing your damage (by .25), crit rating (by .0125), and increasing the power of evocation and mana tide.

I haven't done the complicated math yet, though I intend to. But in the meantime I was wondering if any other mages looking at the early sunwell level of raiding have any thoughts as to which of these methods is the best for increasing sustained DPS? Is it better to make sacrifices in the power of your individual spell casts to increase the sustainability of AB spam? If so, is the better approach to greatly buff passive regen and regen through innervates, take the more middle-of-the-raod technique stacking intel, or go for a well rounded set by balancing the 3 stats and meeting socket bonuses?

 

Aeryn