Hey Sinless. I just wanted to point out that the mage you are comparing yourself to on that akama kill did not cold snap his icy veins, did not pop a potion, did not use a trinket, and did not pom his frostbolt. I have no doubt that frost is viable for BT / Hyjal, and it's great that it has made those fights fun for you again. The tree has a lot going for it, and personally I have always preferred the playstyle of frost and the challenge of managing cooldowns and the pet to maximum effect over fire. However, though frost can sustain decent burst, I wouldn't take that particular parse as an indication that said burst is on par with Arcane...because it isn't. An arcane mage who is really trying should be able to sustain 3.5-4k+ DPS (depending on luck w/ clearcasts and crits) easily for the 40-50 seconds it takes to drop shade, which frost (and fire) could never compete with.

And as for your question Pint, I think frost is absolutely viable at this level of raiding...meaning bringing a frost mage isn't hurting the raid, and they will be pulling their weight. However, the spec is really hurt by the fact that a significant source of your damage comes from a pet that does not scale with your spell haste, crit, or hit. In the end, although the spec will certainly work, it isn't going to be competitive for the #1 spot versus the locks, fire/arcane mages, rogues and BM hunters.

40/0/21 is better than 48/13/0 imo, just because the filler spell, Frostbolt, scales better than AM. Also IV is just another cooldown you can stack with your other cooldowns, and as a mage stacking cooldowns is where its at. I have no +int gems and I have no problem with spamming AB the entire duration of my cooldown stacking, IV+AP+HSH+SCB.

I have never had a boss fight 7-10 minutes long but i would bet that 40/0/21 would be better, with a shadow priest and shammy in my group i gain mana while casting frostbolt.

Hey Saizul. Kavan is 50/0/11 and he uses AM as filler, so he doesn't have access to cold snap IV. He did use a trinket as you can see from his buffs gained (ZA trinket) and there is no reason to pom frostbolt here because AB hits as much on average and is already at GCD. The only thing he didn't do is to pop a destro potion, but remember, I haven't done that as well.

Yes, frost and fire can never compete with arcane on Shade, which is purely a gimmick fight. That wasn't my point. My point was you cannot beat but come quite close to simply the burst dps spec in game on a very short fight.

You are right in the sense that it will probably not compete for a #1 spot in your typical world first guild, with world class dps, pushing their limits. But I feel quite competitive in my friendly guild just starting Sunwell .

Thanks a lot for sharing your ideas. I wonder what Pint thinks about this stuff.

I'm positive I can sustain AB spam through one IV, but if I cold snap and hit it again, I'm not sure I could do a full 40 seconds of AB spam without nerfing my long term dmg by having to use fillers for too long. Is there anyone who has numbers to support this? I've scoured every site I could find, and I've found no solid evidence leading to either. It's almost as if it really comes down to a personal preference. Assuming that 40/0/21 is a higher dps spec than 48/13/0, would it be a benefit to have BOTH the AM and the IV by going with a 50/0/11 spec? Again, any numbers to back this up would be appreciated.

I'm flattered you'd give a damn what I think, given you raid with the Grandfather of Arcane.

What I think is Rawr doesn't models the Elemental enough (I hope). I'm under the impression it either doesn't combo it with trinkets, or assumes it has spellpower equal to it's base plus your buffed. I'm not even aware if it takes totems into account. Or bloodlust, though it's harder to make sure the bloody beast gets BL than anything else.

That said, at entry-swp gear I'm finding Rawr to sim Frost as perhaps 60-100dps less than fire. Given we're talking simmed 2100 here and the elemental should be 10% of that, I wonder if it's conceivable the beast gains 60dps or so by virtue of auras/trinkets. Also: DAMN YOU, FLAMECAPS.

I'm a big fan of Frost running dual-trinks. Having a Hex and Icon at the same time mean good synergy for frost; You can always have either a pet or an IV out when one trink is up. This is particularly true when you consider that given the total amount of times you'll use CD's (3 each, per 6m fight) it doesn't matter if you delay a CD to match a short trinket.

something like

0.000 WE
0.015 IV + Hex+Destro
0.215 Icon
3.00 WE
3.015 IV+Hex+Destro
3.215 Icon
(cold snap at some point)
5.000WE
5.015 IV+Hex+Destro
5.215 Icon

Ultimately, in a 6m encounter, you can't use more than 3 loads of either trinks or CDs. By not blowing Cold Snap ASAP as you would in a T5 encounter (because it was very likely you'd have CS again by the end) you now gain the beneift of pracitally full Trink-CD combining. You only technically "waste" 1m of Trink CD, but then again you wouldn't have gotten another trink application before the end anyway.

If your encounter is more fluid and you're less certain it'll manage 6m, you can always go back to basic WE->IV/Hex/Dpot/Snap->(20s later)IV/Icon->(23s later)WE and then hit stuff as it comes up.

Well, I'm still trying to decide whether or not to always try & time the trinket with IV + WE. I use Icon + Q's eye. I wasn't lucky enough to score a ZA trinket yet.

Anyways, the first pop of IV + WE, sure, I pop the icon along with these. However, I'm at a loss as to what I should do when the icon is up again.

The icon lasts 20 seconds. If you pop it everytime it's up, with no cooldowns, it's about a 155 * 20 / 120 ~ 25.83 damage increase.

If you pop it with IV + WE, it's about; (180 now because of 3 min cooldown on IV and WE)

a) 155 * 20 / 180 * 1.2 ~ 20.66 damage increase from IV

b)Water elemental has a 0.25 spell damage coefficient, so it will gain 155 * 0.25 = 31 spell damage per frostbolt. For the sake of simplicity, let us assume it is added to the caster's 0 haste frostbolts instead. With 91.43% spell damage coefficient for frostbolt, it is roughly equal to another 34 spell damage for the caster.

34 * 20 / 180 = 3.77 spell damage

a) + b) => 20.66 + 3.77 = 24.43 still less than 25.83.

I know, these are very insignificant figures, but still, I guess the best way is to pop the trinket whenever it's up. If it coincides with IV or WE, it's great, if not, who cares.

Could you add an option to model "Waterbolt" as a 3 second cast?
Even when just standing still and feeding mana (mana spring/tide, shadow priest), I couldn't get more than 14 casts until it disappeared.
It has little delays between its casts, and seems to average 3 seconds between each cast/hit.


I'd gladly take counter evidence of someone who actually got the full 18 casts from it too

How does this play with Heroism?

Now that my guild has managed to down the T5 content except Vashj and Kael and thus 3 T5 pieces for 2T5 is in my reach, I was wondering which 2 pieces to take. I searched this thread to find Roywin's answer that one should take mantle + X with X being anything except leggings (which limits my choice at the moment to gloves)

Now I understand why one should take the mantle but I'd like to ask why not the leggings because they seem to make better use of item budget to me with hit/crit/dmg and one socket than gloves with only crit/dmg.

The legs are fine in T5 content when you first get them, as there is no real upgrade. However once you have some MH/BT gear (legs from Kaz'rogal in particular) they become the worst T5 to use.

RAWR ranks [Brooch of Nature's Mercy] as the #1 dps neck piece for me (well, other than [Pendant of Sunfire], but since I'm not a JC).

I'd like to know how many of you arcane mages out there actually are using healing gear? My guild isn't very well-versed with the Arcane spec, so I did raise a few eyebrows for donning a healing item.

Also, if [Brooch of Nature's Mercy] is appropriate for an arcane mage, why not [Belt of Divine Guidance] (it's not ranked in RAWR)? It sure seems comparable to [Waistwrap of Infinity].

I put the belt into my rawr, and it shows it so low that its worse than the belt off HKM =\

20-30 dps below the normal BoB / Noose etc.

The reason that neck is so good for casters is that every single stat is completely useful for arcane mages, and it has boatloads of regen which most necks for mages don't have.

That belt however, has a whole lot of stam, and verrrrry little spell dmg

Ah..sorry being a noob, didn't realise there was an EDIT function...

Thanks!

I wonder why the Thread Starter thinks AB spamming would be best
Sure, for DPS, but Mana goes down faster as i may look on my manabar

I ever use the following Rotation:
ABx3 AM FB ... go to beginning
in Arcane-Frost-Spec would be:
ABx3 FBx3 ... go to beginning
if AoE Damage hits me often i only spam AM

With this i come good over 1700 DPS in only Moonkin Support grp and i am first in Dmg Meters in Nuke-Fights, everytime!

Also our Firemages (i am the only arcane) whine about Mana - i do never - i do not even need a Shadowpriest for 1700DPS with my rotation.

I think ABx3 + Filling spells -> AB again 1sec before debuff fade - is best. at least for me
If i have Mana left near end of a fight, and only then, i begin spam AB to get my Mana to Zero

Can I ask why exactly your using the Water Elemental first and then waste 1.5 sec of global cooldown before using your other cooldowns?

I am using a macro atm that lets me pop all cooldowns at the same time (/use trinkets /cast iv /cast water elemental /cast coldsnap /use destro pot) and I just click this macro few times a fight, does the water elemental only benefit from the cooldowns if they are popped after a global cooldown?

I know the elemental benefits only from heroism if its cast after the elemental is summoned, is it the same with my own cooldowns and is that the reason you wait 1.5 sec?

I rolled against a holy paladin for that Brooch, and I quite enjoying risking some guild drama. Just because something says +healing doesn't mean people should be blind to the other four stats on it. Having said that, it does miss stamina (as does the ZA ring) and my health in Brutallus gear is now such that if three people are away for burn, I'll die from the third meteor slash. Something to consider.

It's assumed you will have a shadow priest and shaman in your group, and that JoW will be up during the fight. This is the most optimal situation for both fire and arcane mages. Just as with the former it allows use of destruction pots and flame caps instead of mana pots and gems, so with arcane mages it allows spamming AB rather than using filler.

While you say you have no mana problems - of course you don't because you have 60% regen and you are using low mana spells. With a good support group, you should actually gain mana while using that filler, leaving your whole mana bar over for AB spam + stacked trinkets. Without good support you will be indeed stuck doing rotations.

I'm guessing since you've just downed Kalecgos and you are top of meters on 1700dps that Brutallus is going to be a huge learning curve for your guild about correct group stacking. With lesser gear as you are wearing (no hex or skull trinket, no haste ring, no sunwell wand), I did 2000dps yesterday on Brut and I was behind the rogues, hunters and locks on the meters. So maybe it's time to rethink your ideas.

I believe that this approach is less than optimal. IV & AP are all damage amplifiers, since they multiply your damage by their respective haste or %-increase damage. Consequently, you get more total damage from Arcane Blast than from Frost Bolt using them. PoM-FrostBolt should best be used outside of IV & AP because, while the GCD is reduced in duration, the damage from FrostBolt does not benefit as much from AP as Arcane Blast.

You might consider smoothing out your damage production by interleaving AB & FrB in various ratios so that the AB debuff does not drop off. There are penalties from letting it drop off, including the restack time, and the bug where the debuff is applied incorrectly when stacking. So, AB x n when your cool downs are ready, then switch to AB x 2, FrB x 1, or AB+FrB or even AB+FrBx2 for mana conservation.

My concern is that AP with 2PT5 is 30% increase on top of 20% increase to AB mana cost. I am unsure if this stacks to 50% increase ... or if the 30% is over the Base+20% from 2PT5. Either way, I found that I drain mana quicker (of course) using AP with AB and end up playing catch up far more than utilizing AP with FrB to increase Filler dmg.

I used to use a Spam AB till 20% mana and begin ABx4 / FrBx3 (with 10% Spell Haste) rotation for Filler. But this is where my searching for more unorthodox methods came from. I found that AB spam to FrB spam with mana regen kept my Filler down from about 30% to now 15% and increased my full AB stack cast ratio from 70% to 85% and my damage seems to maybe not have gone up, but is at least the same as it was with the other type rotations.

The trade-up seems to be that I never OOM, and still maintain 1300 - 1400 dps in raid.

Though I agree that perhaps the PoM and trinket / abilities may be able to be placed better. But as I was presenting, my choice of placement was purely to suplement my Filler spells while waiting to resume AB.

Any thoughts?

I'll just correct some misconceptions for those that didn't read the whole thread.

For purpose of mana-to-damage conversion it is better to drop the debuff in most situations.
Cooldowns are best used with AB spam, the only exception to this is if it would cause GCD clipping.

I am unsure which misconceptions you mean.

Cooldowns with AB would be great, but would render one bound to filler rotations from what I have seen. Though for quick 3 to 4 minute fights I can see the logic there. In my personal experience, AB / FrB combination rotations have not come close to AB spam / FrB spam. I know that math may show otherwise, but I have always gotten better results from the spamming vs. alternating.

However, my question wasn't about whether Spam rotations are better than combination rotations, but rather the validity of stacking mana regen with Filler spells to minimize the downtime of Filler so you can get back to the AB spam as quick and as often as possible.

I don't know how to break down the numbers for calculation ... only see what I have observed in practice.

Kavan has "broken the numbers down for calculation" in a number of incredibly thoughtful and well-written posts. They obviously represent a lot of hard work on his part, which is probably why he isn't repeating them all for you. This list is not exhaustive, nor have I included other threads in my brief search.

[Mage] Raiding as Arcane mage post 2.4 -- cooldown desynching.
[Mage] Raiding as Arcane mage post 2.4 -- on different filler rotations.
[Mage] Raiding as Arcane mage post 2.4 -- on Rawr and spell cycles.
[Mage] Raiding as Arcane mage post 2.4 -- on suboptimal cycle usage.
[Mage] Raiding as Arcane mage post 2.4 -- on uncertain fight duration.

An eloquent and brief exchange between Kavan and Wizeowel summarizing choice of spell cycle and the meaning of letting your AB debuff fall off:

[Mage] Raiding as Arcane mage post 2.4
[Mage] Raiding as Arcane mage post 2.4.


Edit:
I have been using this post of mine to quickly find my way back to Kavan's maths but I missed the most important one.

[Mage] Raiding as Arcane mage post 2.4 -- tradeoff coefficient defined. (Read his quote of himself.)

Greetings all,

I considered posting this in the "Help me please" thread, but assumed the more specific knowledge pool and fact that I really have no gear worth critiquing at this point made this a job for the heavy theorycrafters. <3 I typically lurk in the rogue threads, but after browsing some of the mage threads I became intrigued by this crazy arcane spec and decided to level one up to try it out. Now that I have hit 67 on him, I am trying to figure out the best approach to quickly gearing him up. Some notes:

1. The group I run with has all but final bosses in SSC/TK, 3/5 MH, and 2/9 BT cleared, although I doubt I will be able to squeeze into T6 progression runs for a bit.

2. I have alchemy/tailoring for professions and was considering crafting spellfire/spellstrike sets, but I have read that some mages found going arcane and breaking those bonuses to be troublesome. Also considering crafting a SA for a trinket.

I would kind of like to mess around with arcane pre 2p T5, but not to the detriment of the raid I am in. Would I be better served by going fire with full crafted sets only to switch to drop recipes/badge gear as soon as I can? While I am fine with going fire, I don't particularly want to spend the time specializing my gear for that spec only to change it all for stats more useful to Arcane.

Many thanks.