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Old 05/22/08, 12:56 PM   #151
manly
Soda Popinski
 
manly's Avatar
 
Troll Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by RpgWizard View Post
1) Icy Veins is too much of a dps increase for how low it is in the Frost tree to let go
Well, the basic premice of my claim is that more haste doesn't do much if you don't have the mana for the entire fight
Of course, if mana is still non-issue we both agree that going arcane is still silly.

<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS.
Very Manly Staff

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Old 05/22/08, 1:08 PM   #152
Flamingcloud
Great Tiger
 
Goblin Warlock
 
Cho'gall
Improved Moonkin Aura almost isn't worth discussing, there is no way it will go live as is. It is basically a +100% haste buff that will have well over 50% uptime .. It isn't just the new "windfury" windfury is not even remotely as good as this. This buff is so good there would be no reason to even have melee in raids, just 3 groups of moonkins/spriests/ele shamans/mages/locks, and some healers/tanks.

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Old 05/22/08, 1:23 PM   #153
PsyBomb
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Aerie Peak
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
Improved Moonkin Aura almost isn't worth discussing, there is no way it will go live as is. It is basically a +100% haste buff that will have well over 50% uptime .. It isn't just the new "windfury" windfury is not even remotely as good as this. This buff is so good there would be no reason to even have melee in raids, just 3 groups of moonkins/spriests/ele shamans/mages/locks, and some healers/tanks.
I'm fairly sure the Imp. Moonkin Aura will be nerfed (perhaps to a static cast-speed buff), but in its current form it does have a fairly significant drawback. it is absolutely sick for burst, that much is true, but in any long-duration fight mana becomes a major issue. This is especially true for Arcane and Fire in WotLK, since both will have high mana consumption to begin with.

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

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Old 05/22/08, 1:24 PM   #154
Lhivera
Bald Bull
 
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Human Mage
 
Aggramar
Originally Posted by Kludge View Post
Does anyone actually have an idea of what the rumored spirit changes are?
Actually, now that we know about Fel Armor, I have doubts that there are any additional spirit changes in the works.

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Old 05/22/08, 1:27 PM   #155
Copernicus
Bald Bull
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Tichondrius
I keep looking at the DK frost tree and wondering if synergy between a tanking class and the not-top DPS spec is a good thing or a bad thing. 5-mans with a DK Frost tank and a frost mage would be pretty insane... But I don't know if that synergy would carry over to 10-mans or 25-mans where targets don't stay frozen for very long. And, of course, bosses don't get frozen at all.

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Old 05/22/08, 1:27 PM   #156
Deedre
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Turalyon
Originally Posted by PsyBomb View Post
I'm fairly sure the Imp. Moonkin Aura will be nerfed (perhaps to a static cast-speed buff), but in its current form it does have a fairly significant drawback. it is absolutely sick for burst, that much is true, but in any long-duration fight mana becomes a major issue. This is especially true for Arcane and Fire in WotLK, since both will have high mana consumption to begin with.
Moonkin aura is one of the reasons I'm thinking that arcane meditation may be mandatory for any deep fire build in the expac. It's going to heavily devalue icy veins, also.

I'm still wondering why any mage should take burnout over spellpower + AP. Nor do any of the other deep fire talents past empowered fireball seem attractive to me.

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Old 05/22/08, 1:29 PM   #157
bynop
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Aegwynn
Originally Posted by Pintofbrew View Post

Netherwind
is oddly, an old set bonus which is now useless (by the way, someone said "I pyroed when it procced". Notice the wording "next Fireball, Frostbolt, Frostfire bolt or Arcane Blast")
The old T2 Netherwind Presence bonus allowed any cast under 10 seconds to be cast for free so I would pyro when it procced and would save my pom-pyro for that occasion for some burst in pvp. The proc if i remember correctly was a 10% chance on every main nuke cast. obviously this is a 5% proc and a little more unreliable and you are limited to a free fireball not pyro so the burst is going to be smaller, however, it would still be two instant casted nukes under the influence of ap/trinket and would probably still be amazing burst. we'll just have to see i guess

Frostfire really will depend on implementation, if it can sense partial resists and switch to binary spells, it would indeed be a smart nuke. With all the buffs to resist mechanics noted in DK skills, maybe there will be more fights with chromatic auras like Mother and Chromaggus. Maybe it's just an elementalist's gimmick. We'll just have to see i guess.

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Old 05/22/08, 1:30 PM   #158
Lord BEEF
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Pintofbrew View Post
What's with all the weird talents too? Incanter's Absorbtion... If you're this deep in the tree, only Frost or Fire ward and Mana Shield are there to absorb anything. Unless we're looking at a PvP-only talent, I sure as hell won't mana-shield any incoming damage, I don't care how much buff I'll gain. Assume we have such spellpower that with imp. Mana Shield, we're on a 1:1 damage:mana ratio (unlikely high). To gain one trinket's-worth of effect from this talent (+200dmg), i need to be targetted and lose 1350 mana from incoming damage, plus a GCD to cast the shield. Would you ditch 1350 mana for another activation of your HsH as arcane? Didn't think so.
Most of the benefit of this would actually come from power word shield and living seed.

Living seed is a resto druid talent that makes it so our crit heals give a shield that is equal to 15% of the amount healed. So with napkin math you'll get around 70 spell damage anytime a druid lands a crit regrowth on you (regrowth has effectively a 60% crit rate). More than that with power word shield, or a healing touch or swiftmend crit.

The numbers on it are still a bit low I think but the concept is actually pretty cool and I think would be fully usable in a raid setting with you having to use mana shield.

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Old 05/22/08, 1:34 PM   #159
Vontre
Mr. Sandman
 
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Vontre
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account
If you honestly think moonkin aura is going to go live with a 100% haste buff for the entire group, you're very very insane.

And seriously, reprimanding blizzard on their own forums for concepts that aren't even supposed to be public? What the fuck is wrong with you?

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

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Old 05/22/08, 1:38 PM   #160
Flamingcloud
Great Tiger
 
Goblin Warlock
 
Cho'gall
Originally Posted by PsyBomb View Post
I'm fairly sure the Imp. Moonkin Aura will be nerfed (perhaps to a static cast-speed buff), but in its current form it does have a fairly significant drawback. it is absolutely sick for burst, that much is true, but in any long-duration fight mana becomes a major issue. This is especially true for Arcane and Fire in WotLK, since both will have high mana consumption to begin with.
Maybe it could survive if it made your next cast +100% haste instead of +100% haste for 6 seconds, regardless no one is gonna be losing sleep over going oom because they are doing extra damage, anyway you slice it your going to be doing way more damage overall with improved moonkin as is. If specs are already being planned around not caring about dps without a moonkin, but maximizing mana regen + moonkin setup, it is obviously way overpowered.

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Old 05/22/08, 1:48 PM   #161
RpgWizard
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Mage
 
Skywall
Originally Posted by Lhivera View Post
Actually, now that we know about Fel Armor, I have doubts that there are any additional spirit changes in the works.
What's the Fel Armor change?

And on Moonkin Aura, the first time I read it, I thought it said that you gain 100% of your current spell haste. Dunno why I read that. However, a flat +haste rating or even a nerfed percent could be a fairly viable buff.

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Old 05/22/08, 1:49 PM   #162
Deedre
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Turalyon
Will moonkin aura be nerfed? Almost certainly.

But even if it emerges at a fraction of its present power, it's going to be very huge. A 20% haste buff on crits would still make a big difference, to pick a number out of the air. So long as the basic concept emerges, it will be very powerful even after making adjustments on numbers.

They may have to drop the basic concept.

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Old 05/22/08, 1:54 PM   #163
Kludge
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Thunderlord
Originally Posted by RpgWizard View Post
What's the Fel Armor change?

# Fel Armor(Rank 4) - "Surrounds the caster with fel energy, increasing spell damage by up to 180 and allows 30% of your mana and health regeneration to continue while casting."
# Demon Armor(Rank 8) - "Protects the caster, increasing armor by 950, and increasing the amount of health generated through spells and effects by 20%."

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Old 05/22/08, 1:54 PM   #164
Lord BEEF
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by RpgWizard View Post
What's the Fel Armor change?

And on Moonkin Aura, the first time I read it, I thought it said that you gain 100% of your current spell haste. Dunno why I read that. However, a flat +haste rating or even a nerfed percent could be a fairly viable buff.
Demon Armor is going to be bonus armor and +20% healing received, while fel armor will be 30% mana regen while casting and bonus spell damage.

So all DPS casters besides elemental shamans will be able to benefit from spirit.

As for moonkin aura I expect the basic concept to remain but with tweaked numbers. Remember that moonkins themselves don't do amazing DPS so they need strong synergy that's competitive with shadow priests and elemental shamans.

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Old 05/22/08, 1:55 PM   #165
RpgWizard
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Mage
 
Skywall
Originally Posted by Kludge View Post
# Fel Armor(Rank 4) - "Surrounds the caster with fel energy, increasing spell damage by up to 180 and allows 30% of your mana and health regeneration to continue while casting."
# Demon Armor(Rank 8) - "Protects the caster, increasing armor by 950, and increasing the amount of health generated through spells and effects by 20%."
Wait, what? Warlocks get mana regen as well as a damage increasing armor? GG Blizz.

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