I am not so sure it would be so unreasonable. You could lessen the duration of the considered frozen buff, but even as a 10s self buff it would be similar to the old WG with two mages keeping the wg buffs with procs at 5s duration. And 2 mages with WG was seen as not too out of line, so why would having one mage with the same self buffed effect be so? It is true that frost got 10% more damage, but arcane was lifted in a similar fashion so it still seems in line.
If this would make frost out of line then the duration could and should be adjusted, but I think this would be perfect to keep it competitive, especially with the arcane buffs. It should still be less probably, but still in the ballpark of arcane in my view.
As for fire, again, someone else rework it to make it up to par.
Old Winter's Grasp in the last build even with a dozen frost mages was fine for Frostbolts, since Frostbolts we're frankly terrible DPS.
With the massive changes (Imp. Scorch, 2.5s AM), frost is now just 7.5% below Fireball or Barrage Cycles.
I think that's quite a lot for a primary PvP spec that also brings Focus Magic to the raid.
If Finger of Frost's possible uptime was tweaked, then Frost with proper pet management would be competitive with Fireball or Barrage cycles at 30% uptime. Even at 20% uptime, you'd be less than 4% off the top.
I feel that frost's damage is placed quite alright given that it's a PvP centric spec.
7.5% difference to the top is very little leeway to allow further tweaking.
[Edit]: That's all without Frozen Runeweapon, because I think making another class spend 11 talent points and forego a sharpening stone just to get 2 specs of your class a 10% boost is terrible design. Tanking DKs will have it I guess.
Assuming E&M because Moonkin look very raid viable right now.
If you assume Frozen Runeweapon to be up, then Fire and Frostfire specs will be on top.
It's noteworthy that FFB with 288.4% crits from Ice Shards + Ignite + CSD @ a 50% crit rate... that +1% crit equals almost exactly 1% DPS (1.009%). That appears almost intentional. Getting a flat 1% DPS increase per percentage of crit even at such a high crit rate is truly intriguing. FFB might finally justify the currently appalling item value of crit rating... however I haven't done the spell damage scaling math yet and have a fear that it will put crit rating to shame point for point once again.
Old Winter's Grasp in the last build even with a dozen frost mages was fine for Frostbolts, since Frostbolts we're frankly terrible DPS.
With the massive changes (Imp. Scorch, 2.5s AM), frost is now just 7.5% below Fireball or Barrage Cycles.
I think that's quite a lot for a primary PvP spec that also brings Focus Magic to the raid.
If Finger of Frost's possible uptime was tweaked, then Frost with proper pet management would be competitive with Fireball or Barrage cycles at 30% uptime. Even at 20% uptime, you'd be less than 4% off the top.
I feel that frost's damage is placed quite alright given that it's a PvP centric spec.
7.5% difference to the top is very little leeway to allow further tweaking.
I really feel like you can do a frost build for PvP, or you can do a frost build for PvE. PvP requires certain talents that just does not leave room to pick up all the talents required for raiding. That is enough of a balance for me.
OK, so, a few new questions for testing, or just for posting on Beta forums to let Blizzard know they are concerns (I'll mark this latter type with a *):
Focus Magic
Does it increase your spell power against the target, or does it cause a damage tick separate from the triggering spell? A: It increases spell power, but the mechanic is not yet entirely clear.
Master of Elements
Functionality on Arcane Missiles?
Functionality on Blizzard?
Burnout
Mana charge occur on Frost and/or Arcane spells?
Living Bomb
Explosion functioning yet? A: No.
Coefficient on explosion?
Coefficient on mana burn?
Shattered Barrier
What rank Frost Nova is cast?
Arctic Winds
Is this talent affecting FFB regardless of damage type dealt?
Water Elemental
Will the Water Elemental be gaining survivability improvements via Avoidance and/or Resistance?
With the increased duration, is base mana scaling going to be enough to keep it casting for 60 secs? (If not, that's 3 points saved.)
Deep Freeze
What is the coefficient on the damage?
Can Deep Freeze critically strike?
Originally Posted by Roywyn
Old Winter's Grasp in the last build even with a dozen frost mages was fine for Frostbolts, since Frostbolts we're frankly terrible DPS.
With the massive changes (Imp. Scorch, 2.5s AM), frost is now just 7.5% below Fireball or Barrage Cycles.
I think that's quite a lot for a primary PvP spec that also brings Focus Magic to the raid.
If Finger of Frost's possible uptime was tweaked, then Frost with proper pet management would be competitive with Fireball or Barrage cycles at 30% uptime. Even at 20% uptime, you'd be less than 4% off the top.
I feel that frost's damage is placed quite alright given that it's a PvP centric spec.
7.5% difference to the top is very little leeway to allow further tweaking.
My numbers for Frost are considerably better than yours, but I'm assuming FRW will be on the target. Basically, what I'm seeing between deep Arcane and deep Frost is that which one comes out on top depends on whether you have just FRW, just E&M, or both. Mind you, this is napkin math not dealing in any real detail with cooldown usage or things like procs from other classes.
Last edited by Lhivera : 07/30/08 at 10:10 PM.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
Old Winter's Grasp in the last build even with a dozen frost mages was fine for Frostbolts, since Frostbolts we're frankly terrible DPS.
With the massive changes (Imp. Scorch, 2.5s AM), frost is now just 7.5% below Fireball or Barrage Cycles.
I think that's quite a lot for a primary PvP spec that also brings Focus Magic to the raid.
If Finger of Frost's possible uptime was tweaked, then Frost with proper pet management would be competitive with Fireball or Barrage cycles at 30% uptime. Even at 20% uptime, you'd be less than 4% off the top.
I feel that frost's damage is placed quite alright given that it's a PvP centric spec.
7.5% difference to the top is very little leeway to allow further tweaking.
I was going to begin this post with a Darth Vadar "No!" but I'll restrain myself. Perhaps Lhivera will reply and be, as usual, more eloquent but here is my take on the matter.
Frost should not be a pvp-centric spec. No spec should be pvp or pve centric. Blizzard has stated this as a (unreachable) goal. They admittedly have their work cut out for them with prot warriors. But there is absolutely no reasons that fire, frost, arcane, elementalist can't have spec variants that are good for both pve and pvp. As Lhivera has said many times, spec should not lock you into content type. I like frost. I only pve. The two should not be mutually exclusive. If they are that is bad game design.
I don't mind, however, if there are subspecs that are better at pvp and pve. It makes me happier about "bloated" talent trees. If there are 80 pts in the frost tree alone, but 11/0/60 is a great frost pve raiding build and 0/11/60 is a great frost pvp build with those 60 pts being in some different talents in places, that's great IMO.
Blizzard is clearly overhauling the classes right now. The have shown they are willing and interested in making sweeping, major changes. It is within their grasp to balance the trees. I'm firmly convinced as I read through the talents and analysis that there are a lot more change/tweaking to come. I can only hope they stick to their stated goals and open up all content types to all talent trees as much as is possible.
Someone upthread said MoE is currently broken for AM dunno for Blizzard and Living Bomb doesn't explode. Also fingers of frost doesn't work.
Edit: Oh, and shattered barrier doesn't work either.
I would assume that, since the channeled component of AM cannot crit, MoE won't ever proc on it. the individual bolts launched during AM have no mana cost and hence cannot return mana on MoE. Its a technical issue that can likely be fixed by hard-coding MoE to give the right amount of mana depending on the rank of spell used (instead of working it out as it goes).
I couldn't say about problems with LB or FoF.
This is me assuming I know how blizzard codes it's game, of course.
Shattered Barrier
What rank Frost Nova is cast?
This is interesting. the closest comparison we can make is the druid tallent Nature's grasp, which explicitly states which rank of roots it procs. My assumption is that Shattered Barrier doesn't just cast your frost nova, but rather procs a frost nova effect (with either level-based damage or none at all). The result is FN not going on cooldown, the proc having no mana cost and not causing a GCD. Its basically building shatter shield into ice barrier. The other alternative is that it casts frost nova's closest rank to the rank of IB that was broken (max rank for max rank, closest rank under level 40 for rank 1 IB, etc).
Last edited by Jonny_Monroe : 07/29/08 at 5:17 PM.
Reason: THE SPELLINGS
OK, here's my current math on Arcane and Frost, feel free to pick it apart. I'm not trying for really accurate cooldown usage here, this is basically the napkin step I go through to visualize things before I even start coding on the TCoM. I'm assuming deep specs here, I have not begun to explore hybrids.
Results Up Top For Your Pleasure
DPS
2695.07: Deep Arcane w/IV and Incineration, Barrage/3xBlast/AM on proc
2689.14: Deep Arcane w/IV and Incineration, Barrage/Blast/AM on proc
2685.78: Deep Frost w/50% WE uptime and untalented Fireball on BF proc
2647.20: Deep Frost w/50% WE uptime
DPM
17.19: Deep Frost w/50% WE uptime and untalented Fireball on BF proc
15.52: Deep Frost w/50% WE uptime (Note, does not account for WE cast as we have no level 80 value)
14.46: Deep Arcane w/IV and Incineration, Barrage/Blast/AM on proc
12.12: Deep Arcane w/IV and Incineration, Barrage/3xBlast/AM on proc
The deep Fire numbers, incidentally, clock in at just over 2100.
General Assumptions
This is all guesswork. Leading up to TBC, we did a lot of theorycrafting we thought was pretty daring using +1000 damage; turned out that fell way short of the raiding reality. Let's assume the following:
- +1800 damage
- 20% crit before talents
- 99% hit after talents
- 5% haste before talents
- 735 Intellect (845 for Arcane Mages) -- this is a 20% increase from level 70
- 500 Spirit (550 for Arcane Mages) -- also a 20% increase from level 70
- Universal damage multiplier: 1.1 (Imp Scorch) * 1.1 (CoE) * 1.05 (Misery) * 0.949 (Partial Resists) = 1.2057045
Also, does both the Frost and Fire component of FFB take advantage of Imp. Scorch? 20% would be huge. However, I doubt this will happen since it would logically also happen with CoE. A +40% damage modifier would be ridiculous.
I feel like the term "double dipping" is the new "WMD".
Lhivera, my main question here as an arcanist would be whether your rotation is optimal, as it won't ever stack up AB to full debuff status. How does this compare to Barrage/ABx3/AM(.15)?
Lhivera, my main question here as an arcanist would be whether your rotation is optimal, as it won't ever stack up AB to full debuff status. How does this compare to Barrage/ABx3/AM(.15)?
Obviously, the more Blasts you cast, the higher your DPS, but you take the DPM hit. The question is whether you can afford it. I'll work it in there.
Edit: Also, I bollocksed-up the mana cost on Arcane Blast. Will fix that, too.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
Lhivera, my main question here as an arcanist would be whether your rotation is optimal, as it won't ever stack up AB to full debuff status. How does this compare to Barrage/ABx3/AM(.15)?
This is the key, If the 3s arcane blast debuff remains, then the only way to keep it up will be spamming arcane blast. Even throwing an arcane missiles on a proc will have it fall off.
is a 2.5s arcane missiles greater than 45% damage that takes 7.5s to fully reapply? Probably, but lets assume you just arcane blast spam, I can almost keep up arcane blast spam with 100 spell haste and a 1.5s cast time with my arc frost spec, hardly ideal, adding a second will make it far easier keep up as an alternative, particularly with a shadow priest.
This is the dps frost will need to compete with I think. arcane blast spam with an AM on procs, or just arcane blast spam.
I'm not convinced IV is the best way to go for an arcanist come WotLK. I see more potential in a well-synced trinket/AP/PoM/pyro (with +30% to crit, spell power and ignite) every 2 minutes than an IV every 3 minutes that you can't efectively sync with trinkets or AP. Also, fireball feels like a better 'filler' (less worry of a soft haste-cap). The DPS on fireball is better than frostbolt or un-ramped ABla and arcane mages *shouldn't* have as much mana problems in wrath (no ramped ABs as a regular nuke, 1.5% chance to restore a lot of mana on a clearcasted MB against a JoW target, relatively high DPM on ABar).
So considering that, how do the numbers for Arcane/fire shape up? the 2minute AP/trinket/pyro is important for the performance of this spec so I'd rather wait untill you have a sheet that can account for that if you don't currently. (My kingdom for an easilly manipulated cast-cycle simulator program).
This is the key, If the 3s arcane blast debuff remains, then the only way to keep it up will be spamming arcane blast. Even throwing an arcane missiles on a proc will have it fall off.
is a 2.5s arcane missiles greater than 45% damage that takes 7.5s to fully reapply? Probably, but lets assume you just arcane blast spam, I can almost keep up arcane blast spam with 100 spell haste and a 1.5s cast time with my arc frost spec, hardly ideal, adding a second will make it far easier keep up as an alternative, particularly with a shadow priest.
This is the dps frost will need to compete with I think. arcane blast spam with an AM on procs, or just arcane blast spam.
Can't you go AB>ABar>AB>ABar with 33% haste or something? This might not be too hard to obtain with level 80 itemisation, I dunno.
I'm doubting that pure AB spam will be possible, even with my own rough and ready estimates of 1000 mp/5 in combat at level 80 for arcane mages. But barrage/AB/AM (.15) strikes me as excessively conservative, a purely mana conservation rotation that won't seriously challenge a deep arcane's mana pool and regen.
Can't you go AB>ABar>AB>ABar with 33% haste or something? This might not be too hard to obtain with level 80 itemisation, I dunno.
With enough haste sure, but for simplification lets assume you arcane blasted until you were low on mana, people will do whatever yields the greatest damage until they cannot keep it up. Either way arcane is ahead if mana is manageable, far higher burst, with a lower threat ceiling. As it stands I see no signs of frost being out of line, even with 10s uptime on a considered frozen effect. Unless there is some other damage modifier for frost I am not considering.
I'm doubting that pure AB spam will be possible, even with my own rough and ready estimates of 1000 mp/5 in combat at level 80 for arcane mages. But barrage/AB/AM (.15) strikes me as excessively conservative, a purely mana conservation rotation that won't seriously challenge a deep arcane's mana pool and regen.
It probably won't be, but it will be a hell of alot easier to spam than the current iteration with the same increase in mana but casting 1s faster. With a shadow priest and a resto shaman I think I could keep it up the entire fight if its under say 5-6 minutes... but then there is that potion change...
Quoted from lhiv's TC above... am I miss-reading this or is it just a typo?
If you're confused in the same way I initially was, he's treating the multiplier not as your crit damage bonus (which should be 1.75) but as a multiplier for your overall damage after crits are factored in. I think.
Bear in mind that 100% AB spam at level 80 works out to something like 440 mana/s consumption, or 26k+ mana/minute.
I think you might be able to keep that up for 2-3 minutes, max. (Assuming a 20k mana pool, 1k regen, 1 pot, 2 gems, and one evo.)
So we need to be tricky here and weave in different spells. Personally, I rather like this and think it's a lot more interesting than pure AB spam. It's forcing a more dynamic playstyle on arcanists.
It probably won't be, but it will be a hell of alot easier to spam than the current iteration with the same increase in mana but casting 1s faster. With a shadow priest and a resto shaman I think I could keep it up the entire fight if its under say 5-6 minutes... but then there is that potion change...
Bare in mind that ABar is better than a ramped AB. Get enough haste and you can weave them at full stacks.
Also, would you please add debuffed AB to the MoE section in stuff to check for? I still haven't seen anybody test for it.
Originally Posted by Deedre
Bear in mind that 100% AB spam at level 80 works out to something like 440 mana/s consumption, or 26k+ mana/minute.
If MoE works on debuffed AB, the ability to AB spam is directly affected. Unhasted and with clearcasts, the consumption is 388 mana/s for spammed AB R4.
Edit: I'm using 335*.97 (arcane focus)+335*.75*3 = 1078 and then multiplying by .9 to get the mana cost of an AB. I'm assuming that the 3% discount will work like the 20% extra from 2t5.
If you're confused in the same way I initially was, he's treating the multiplier not as your crit damage bonus (which should be 1.75) but as a multiplier for your overall damage after crits are factored in. I think.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing.
Example, Frostbolt with 30% crit and 200% crit damage. You could do this:
0.7 * 1.0 (70% of your hits do 100% damage) + 0.3 * 2.0 (30% of your hits do 200% damage) = 1.3
07/29/08, 4:43 PM
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