Still no comparisons for 2minute AP+PoM+Pyro Versus 2minute AP+PoM/ 3minute IV? I really don't want to go down the frost tree on the current build if I can get comparable numbers from fire.
I was thinking of an arcane build that used a more controlled ABla for mana management/DPS balancing. Assuming 34% haste, rotate ABar/ABla with 3stacks on ABla. If your mana is clearly getting eaten too fast, throw in a firblast or missile barrage if the proc is up to reset the ABla stack and buff your DPM. In this way you can change your DPM on the fly to reach a sweet spot where you blow through 100% mana as the boss dies (just as with current arcane specs). This way, we come back to the old 'more mana = more damage' setup. The only restricting factor of this playstyle is the need to hit 33-34% haste before it really works. the nice thing on this setup is that its pretty easy to work on an 18fire build. for scorch and PoM pyros (I prefer working with fire on this build because IV just screws up arcane blast weaving right now).
The spec would actually be a lot more viable as 51/10/10 the more I think about it. FFB still gains the 325% crits, but you lose IV and 6% Frost (FFB) damage... but gain the 15% chance for 2.5 sec AM, maxed out AB/AM damage and ABar on top of it all. The spec would have to use AB as the mana-dump DPS burn, AM when Missile Barrage procs, ABar for movement and added DPS, and FFB as a more efficient filler nuke with huge crit potential.
The problem that arises is gear; FFB with such a spec heavily favors crit, while ABar, AB and AM are not spells you want to stack crit with. The burst capability of the spec is much more controllable though, so depending on TC DPS potential it could have some slight utility in that department.
Would it not be a better idea to chuck the ABar point into IV for better AB spam during the mana dump 'phase'? Making it FFB + ABAM on proc, then AB spam with cooldowns.
Originally Posted by Jonny_Monroe
Assuming 34% haste, rotate ABar/ABla with 3stacks on ABla.
This has been shown not to work due to the 3sec cooldown on ABar (I was schooled on this earlier XD).
Still no comparisons for 2minute AP+PoM+Pyro Versus 2minute AP+PoM/ 3minute IV? I really don't want to go down the frost tree on the current build if I can get comparable numbers from fire.
I was thinking of an arcane build that used a more controlled ABla for mana management/DPS balancing. Assuming 34% haste, rotate ABar/ABla with 3stacks on ABla. If your mana is clearly getting eaten too fast, throw in a firblast or missile barrage if the proc is up to reset the ABla stack and buff your DPM. In this way you can change your DPM on the fly to reach a sweet spot where you blow through 100% mana as the boss dies (just as with current arcane specs). This way, we come back to the old 'more mana = more damage' setup. The only restricting factor of this playstyle is the need to hit 33-34% haste before it really works. the nice thing on this setup is that its pretty easy to work on an 18fire build. for scorch and PoM pyros (I prefer working with fire on this build because IV just screws up arcane blast weaving right now).
I don't see that as a restriction so much as a good answer to the question: what does an arcanist do if and when he can consistently gear for 33+% haste? This is actually a great TC find on your part, and gives us a build to aim for when our gear gets to that point. At lower gear levels, other builds are preferable.
Assuming 34% haste, rotate ABar/ABla with 3stacks on ABla.
This has been shown not to work due to the 3sec cooldown on ABar (I was schooled on this earlier XD).
care to elaborate? its a 4second cycle if i'm not mistaken. 4/1.34 = 3seconds, meaning the whole cycle uses ABar on every cooldown and weaves Abla whilst maintaining the stack. You may need a little more haste to compensate for latency/sucking, but I see no mechanic which would prevent it.
If only someone could put all the useful specs with a DPS potential/scaling estimate into one post and maybe put a link to them into their signature *cough*
I did some TCing for my guild and put up a single excel-sheet with any spec that came to my mind. I guess it's not bad as an overview, so ill post it here too. Most of the stuff is more or less self explanatory, and the stats and buffs can be seen at the top of the sheet (CoE and Misery is up too, as well as Imp Scorch for every spell). I can provide an upload of the sheet if there are any questions or if someone wants to verify the calculation, but i can assure that it is not my first TC
Are you referring to the impossibility of having the mutual cooldowns of ABar and AB's debuff be identical to the point that you can chain cast both with max debuffs stacked? That could be true, but it would only take a buff of 0.5 seconds to the AB debuff to make it possible.
I just doubt the sustainability of such a rotation.
Actually, I don't even think it is mathematically possible for a 3 stack AB -> ABar rotation. You would need exactly 33.33% haste and the AB debuff to hit exactly at the end of the ABar cooldown with a 0 latency ABar cast. After the ABar's GCD you would have to follow with a 0 latency AB to cast it before the AB stack expired. But that involves both the completion of the AB cast and the beginning of the ABar cast at identical times which is theoretically impossible.
Add any more haste and you finish the AB cast before the ABar cooldown is up, meaning you wait out the period between the AB cast and the cooldown, and any time wasted waiting is part of the AB stack timer, which is made up with an identical decrease in cast time of the GCD+AB cast. Remove any haste and you can't finish the ABar's GCD + AB cast within the AB debuff's 3 second duration. Any stall between the GCD and the AB cast would need an identical cast pattern to maintain or a progressively shorter and shorter time period between them until you simply reach the first case mentioned. So, mathematically the rotation is impossible barring any sort of lagging behavior with the AB debuff allowing it to be calculated for more than 3 seconds after a cast.
Really the only thing I was interested in is if using this spec and just casting AB is worth it? You lose Missile Barrage and Arcane Barrage and get MOE and Playing W/Fire in return.
It seems to me that a ABar/ABlast(3) cycle would be very difficult to carry off even with enough haste. This stems from the fact that haste does not affect ABar's CD. Therefore, there is a very specific sweet spot of haste (33.33%) where the cycle comes down to exactly 3 seconds. However, slip in any human error or network-caused latency into the equation, and the cycle will take slightly longer than 3 seconds, causing the ABlast debuff to drop off. But if you add in additional haste to compensate for that unavoidable margin of error, you run the risk of having to wait for the ABar CD to be up.
So say you have 40% haste. That would lower the total cycle time to 4/1.4 seconds, or ~2.85 seconds. That extra 0.15 seconds may (or may not) be enough leeway to compensate for reaction time and latency. Even 50% haste would only give you an extra .33 seconds to make sure the debuff didn't fall off. To make matters worse, every bit of haste above the theoretical sweet spot is only going to compensate for the human/network factor, and is not providing any theorical benefit. In practical terms, if you gear for 50% haste to give you that extra .33 seconds, and average only needing, say, .2 seconds, that is a lot of extra haste basically going to waste, where you run the risk of additional delays because when you hit the ABar button, it will generate a "not ready" error, and it will take you a bit of time to realize that and hit the button again.
There may be some people that can carry off a cycle under such difficult circumstances, but I am not one of them.
hmm.... I see what you mean about ABar/ABla probably being impossible. Since you can't mix ABar with any other spell, nor can you sustain it for any length of time, it really should have better ramped DPS.
Perhaps it'll get tweaked to 3.5seconds debuff duration (or a glyph adds that effect).
Yes, the 33% haste rotation is essentially impossible to pull off. One would have to reach the perfect level of gear, group buffs, network quality and maintain that indefinitely. Pursuing that rotation is pointless unless they increase the debuff length or change how ABar's CD works. Otherwise, it's just too high of a standard and it's taking away from real rotations.
Really the only thing I was interested in is if using this spec and just casting AB is worth it? You lose Missile Barrage and Arcane Barrage and get MOE and Playing W/Fire in return.
I'm not confident that you can sustain pure AB spam and rarely have to move/get pushback.
If you can, it's a great 3% to AB spam. If you cannot, you're hosed.
Originally Posted by Lgs
Yes, the 33% haste rotation is essentially impossible to pull off. One would have to reach the perfect level of gear, group buffs, network quality and maintain that indefinitely. Pursuing that rotation is pointless unless they increase the debuff length or change how ABar's CD works. Otherwise, it's pointless.
(ABar-AB) burn mode at 33%+ haste may or may not work, simple as that.
It depends on how the cooldown, cast, hit and debuff are handled on client and server side.
I put up how the cycle performs if it performs if it works.
Whether it actually works or not requires someone to test it. Simple as that.
There's a lot of dumb stuff like rolling ignites, swallowed ignites, the AToI bug, former AB ramp bug.
Might work or might not. Only one way to find out.
[Edit]:
Originally Posted by Jonny_Monroe
Judging by these number I would assume otherwise, but is fireblast/fireball here including getting 'double procs' for hot streak?
The Fireball line means straight Fireball spam, even on Hot Streak procs for deep fire. The Fireball/FireBlast line means you spam Fireball*3-FireBlast, and if you're deep fire you cast a Fireball/FireBlast combo on Hot Streak for two crits towards your new streak.
You also have to have magic dice to never be caught on Hot Streak with Fire Blast on cooldown.
It's basically an overestimate of what you could do on Hot Streak in a dream world of no ignite bugs.
The damage difference is extremely low, you're right.
I'm assuming 3.2k spell power and 4.1k is the Fire Blast cap (where it's no longer better DPS), so high gear is one reason.
With 2.6k damage, the numbers for deep fire drop to 4404 for FB spam and 4563 for FB3FiBl and FBFiBl on Hot Streak.
It's still not much, but nearly twice the relative benefit for smart casting over spam.
Beta participants here have tested Focus Magic? Is it simply on-target spellpower of it fully applies on any kind of damage regardless of coefficient?
If it acts like Dampen/Amplify Magic, don't you find the +150 on lvl80 low?
I did some quick math on brain freeze. 15% proc rate on a 2.5 second spell gets you 3.3 procs per minute. Untalented instant fireballs do more dps than talented frostbolts, which shouldn't come as a surprise. By my calcs (20% base crit, 1800 spell damage, which are Lhiv's assumptions as well I think), the difference is about 43%. So if for 3.3 global cooldowns every minute you do 43% more dps, I calculated that out to be a 3.6% damage increase.
If you spec 18 points into fire for ignite and improved scorch, its a 5.2% increase (that spec disallows shatter/finger of frost).
Not bad.
If you go deeper into fire to be the scorch bitch, it almost exactly makes up for giving up shatter. You just gain scorch and lose all the arcane mana efficiency talents.
From this, I don't think a frost mage has to give up dps to get scorch. Which puts them pretty close to the same ballpark as an arcane mage. The arcane tree is so cluttered that an arcanist trying to go 18 points into fire is forced to choose between the same mana efficiency talents, or giving up arcane dps talents.
----------------
edited to correct a calculation error.
I did some quick math on brain freeze. I assumed 3.5 procs per minute. Untalented instant fireballs do more dps than talented frostbolts, which shouldn't come as a surprise. By my calcs (20% base crit, 1800 spell damage, which are Lhiv's assumptions as well I think), the difference is about 43%. So if for 3.5 global cooldowns every minute you do 43% more dps, I calculated that out to be a 3.8% damage increase.
This is an awesome talent. In addition to the dps increase it really reduces mana/sec. 3 points of BF gives mana benefits comparable to 5 points of Clearcasting, and as well as decent dps. If this goes live it will be a must for any Frost Mage. In fact it will be point for point one of the best talents in any Mage tree. Depending on how much mana matters to a frost build, it is on par with Empowered Frostbolt.
I didn't get numbers anywhere near that good for untalented Fireball; I'll post details shortly.
More importantly at the moment, though, the official calculator has been updated, and is missing certain changes. Improved Scorch, for example, is still as in Live. World In Flames was moved to its new location, but the old functionality remained. I haven't looked closely at the rest for other differences (although Ice Lance is now explicitly mentioned on Arctic Reach), and I don't know if this means the calculator wasn't fully updated or if those changes were cancelled.
ETA: Added untalented Fireball on BF proc to my post here. Works out to about a 0.34% DPS increase per talent point by my reckoning.
The DPM improvement is more impressive, and does indeed match Clearcasting, so it does offer a way to go 71 Frost with the same efficiency as 10/0/61. Question is whether you'll actually need Clearcasting, which is not at all clear.
This got me thinking: the way to fix Fingers of Frost is perhaps to exclude Frostbolt from the spells that can consume the buff. This allows you to complete your Frostbolt cast, and then inject either an Ice Lance or a Deep Freeze (assuming the Deep Freeze damage is still dealt to targets that are immune to stuns) into your rotation. Even assuming a 1.5 sec coefficient, the high base damage and low cast time of a Deep Freeze (assuming it's capable of critical strikes) would produce higher DPCT than Frostbolt. I'll work up some numbers for this hypothetical and see if it looks workable.
Last edited by Lhivera : 07/30/08 at 7:47 PM.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
I didn't get numbers anywhere near that good for untalented Fireball; I'll post details shortly.
At 3.2k damage, Frozen Runeweapon and no Ignite, the instant Fireball is 4% better DPS than Frostbolt. Resulting in a 0.3% gain for FrB7-FB. Same at 2k damage.
Without Frozen Runeweapon and with Ignite (spec for Imp. Scorch), that changes to instant Fireball being 33% better DPS, and FrB7-FB being 2.7% better than FrB spam. Same at 2k damage.
With no FRW and no Ignite, it's 14%/1.2%, with FRW and Ignite it's 21%/1.7%.
So the presence of Ignite or the absence of FRW seem necessary to make Brain Freeze more than a mana-saving damage sidegrade.
Searix' point of the DoT improves the best case (Ignite, no FRW) to 36%/2.9% if you don't get chain procs
[Edit]: The calculator also lists Spell Impact as 6% crit instead of damage. *shrug*
And am I the only one who thinks that "Student of the Mind" (and spirit in general) is quite terrible in most situations?
At 3.2k damage, Frozen Runeweapon and no Ignite, the instant Fireball is 4% better DPS than Frostbolt. Resulting in a 0.3% gain for FrB7-FB. Same at 2k damage.
Without Frozen Runeweapon and with Ignite (spec for Imp. Scorch), that changes to instant Fireball being 33% better DPS, and FrB7-FB being 2.7% better than FrB spam. Same at 2k damage.
With no FRW and no Ignite, it's 14%/1.2%, with FRW and Ignite it's 21%/1.7%.
So the presence of Ignite or the absence of FRW seem necessary to make Brain Freeze more than a mana-saving damage sidegrade.
On top of that, don't forget to add in that you can finally see all 4 dot ticks
Since somebody was asking about this, I tested spell power earlier. While pom was active I had a constant 30% extra crit and no channeled spells or instant casts consumed my pom buff.
Brain Freeze does seem like a fun talent, alltho it does strike me more as a goodie for elemental mages more. FFB can proc it and if youre using FFB as main nuke it means you at least have ignite, critical mass and imp scorch. But perhaps even an insta cast fireball isnt enoughe damage to match fully talented FFBs. If not then its only a matter of mana balance. DPS for DPM, is it worth it? Could also be that fire power is just so much better than brain freeze at improving the damage of FFB.
On a pvp side note, has anyone tried out the new concept of winter grasp + arcane subtlety + rank 1 focus magic + sheep? If you sheep something with a couple of WC stacks that something friggin STAYS sheeped. And if its really important you can spam focus magic on the target faster than any isngle dispeller can remove debuffs. This dispell resistance along with weaving shatter shield into the frost tree, 10% more slowing chill and deep freeze seems to spell a very annoying ice age for other classes. Could be that it cements frost as THE pvp spec, but I kinda like that. Controll over others is really fun. And if you really need a break from frost pvp you can always go play some fiery or arcane stuff in BGs.
Edit:
Yes it sounded really odd that an insta Fireball should deal worse damage than a frost bolt even if untalented. Im really pleased you found some math suggesting otherwise. I mean after all even if it deals exactly the same damage as a talneted frost bolt it would be a 15% clearcast for three points. Every tinsy winsy bit of damage above that is pure win.
And I cant remember when anything but silence effects or mana management mishaps caused me to see the full ticks of a fire ball.
Arcane potency giving a flat 30% crit sounds sweet but also sounds completely unintentional. If its still there after we get the next round of all the changes promised I will consider the posibility of it not being a bug. But currently Im more thinking that blizzard dont think theres much harm in a bunch of lv 70-75s running around in early wrath gear spamming high crit AMs and ABars for a couple of weeks untill they turn their programming atention to our talents again.
And on changing frotmage playstyle isnt that kinda the problem with any mage spec besides arcane? I agree that it isnt brilliant design when the best DPS for a class is to press one single button as much as you can and try not to stand in fire. While I was teasing rogues in my raid today on DPS they were all gruffing about how little skill pressing my AB button ll night took. And thats true, I cant really remember any time where mage DPS was ever about more than folowing the general rules of each raid encounter and fill the rest of the time with pressing your nuke button.
Well, my idea of having Frostbolt not consume FoF, allowing for a Deep Freeze cast instead, would improve DPS by a whopping ~15 at the stats I've been using, and that would diminish as gear scales up, so nevermind that.
I'd just really, really like to see that active spell selection that Winter's Grasp offered become part of the Frost DPS process. As it stands now, they are changing literally nothing about how a Frost Mage will play in PvE; they're just increasing our damage and crit rate.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
07/30/08, 1:21 PM
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