Also, Arcane Flows has only one rank (reducing cooldowns by 30sec) and Missile Barrage procs on ABar instead of ABlast (with the new 2.5sec effect, which indicates a new build, rather than a mix up in talents).

Edit: the knock back from Blast Wave is also missing and DB is also only 3 sec instead of 5. It's a bit confusing between the blizzard and mmo-champion, as they're quite different.

Braal

Wait theyre changing arc flows back to a 1/1 talent? Aww that looked so nice. But... this MB stuff sounds like the samge change that mage arc flows a 2/2 talent. Now youree confusing me, how new are these news and from where do they come? Cause they sound like possibly just old news and an unuppdated talent calculator...

Showing my math on fireball/frostbolt. I did accidentally leave out the arctic winds bonus from my previous calcs, and caught another mistake. But I still see a lot better than frostbolt.

Frostbolt. (830+1800*.914)*1.05(winds)*1.06 (piercing ice)*1.05(FoF)*1.05 (chilled) = 3037 base damage. Your 35% frostbolt crit rate gives you a 35% chance of double damage (6074), and 65% chance of doing normal damage (3037). .35*6074 = 2126/ .65*3037= 1974. 2126+1974 = 4100/2.5= 1640 dps.

Fireball is pretty easy. 1010+1800 = 2810. .8*2810 = 2248. .2 *2810*1.5=843. 2248+843=3091/1.5 = 2061 dps.

2061/1640 = 26% more damage. No Frozen runesweapon, no ignite. 2.1% more damage. Once you include ignite (which pretty much requires giving up shatter/FoF and going for improved scorch), I get a 1562 dps frostbolt and a 2285 dps fireball, for a 46% increase. 3.8% more damage.

Not sure where we are departing from each other. All the raid buffs I considered helped frost and fire pretty much equally, except frozen runeweapon. I left that out as it doesn't seem to be a given.

The initial information comes from MMO-Champion:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?mage

The confusion comes from the official Blizzard calculator:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Mage -> Talent Calculator

The first (i assume) is copied from live Beta. The blizzard calculator is more recent. Whether or not the blizzard calculator is as intended is anyone's guess. Atm, it's plain confusing

Braal

When it doubt, don't go with the official blizzard calc. It is notorious for being based on ... well I have no idea what it is based on. You'd think they would have access to advanced information. But notice that the official blizzard calc for mages for live (not WotLK) here:

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Mage -> Talent Calculator

shows Arctic Reach not affecting Ice Lance. All other calculators everywhere (including official WoTLK ones) have Ice Lance in the description. So from what outdated file is the official, live calculator coming from?

If I had to guess what is on the Blizzard WotLK calc now was from some outdated build before what is currently on the Beta servers.

Off the top of my head, your crit rate for Frostbolt is 5% too low (FoF+Shatter adds another 5%), and of course I used FRW. Other than that, all I can really say is, go over the math I posted and tell me where you think I went wrong. I basically added 15% of the average Fireball damage and 15% of the instant cast time to the Frostbolt damage and cast time (since, on average, you're getting 0.15 Fireballs per Frostbolt).

1) I added FoF as a separate 5% multiplier, which actually overcompensates. 5% more crit rate isn't 5% more damage. Its closer to 4%.

2) I tried to click the link you posted, and got an "address not valid" error.

Sorry about that -- I've corrected the link, but it's here:
[Mage] WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion

(Edit: no, I didn't make the mistake I thought I did, nevermind!)

I think the person maintaining it is terrible at taking notes. I swear if someone would just sit down and read the talent trees sometime.....

Oh, and notice the change in name from Focus Magic to Focus Mind? Half the data is from 2 builds ago or live, and half is new stuff. Even the new stuff they can't get right on the official calculator. Arcane Flows is 2 ranks in the data file, but is marked as only 1 rank in the toc.

Edit: Wouldn't it just be much simplier for them to allow Amplify/Dampen to be cast on enemies?

I found the post you are referencing.

Our dps numbers are pretty close, actually. You are seeing a 20% dps difference between instant fireball and frostbolt. The difference I see can almost entirely be explained by your assumption of frozen runeweapon. Once you account for that, the rest is within rounding error range, or the fact your model is more sophisticated.

They need to stop adding more AoE dps talents, and add some threat reducing ones. I have no idea how tanks are going hold onto mobs in AoE encounters with all these additions. We will have Instant Flamestrikes, 100% crit(hot streak) Blizzards, Blastwaves that knock back, living bombs, etc. I'm sure that's going to strain the best prot pally, and DnD got gutted this build so unlikely DK's AoE tanking.

I was really trying to reserve judgement on all the changes, as they still are ongoing. But, the fact that they replace Wand spec with a 3 point version of a useless 1 point talent, and that it's only 50% better speaks volumes. Who the heck is designing this crap?

Just look at this crap: Focus Magic(just let us put Amp/Dampen on mobs), Finger of Frost(i got a finger for ya!), Living Bomb, Imp WE, Arcane Shielding(no 1:1 for mana shield!?!), and it goes on and on.

I really think we need someone to speak up for mages in beta. As it doesn't seem to be happening atm.

Oh hey, no surprise there but the arcane barrage got significantly reduced. If its not true blame IRC.
Once I get 77 I'll be able to test live stuff. Hopefully this week.

Well, if you've got a deep Frost Mage on the Blizzards, the mobs'll hardly be going anywhere anyway, so that's some small consolation perhaps.

Added a question to [Mage] WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion
Can Deep Freeze critically strike? (If it can, it is of course virtually guaranteed to do so...)


Heh...funny you should choose that example:

Let me tell you something...if they make Master Conjurer a good talent, and Frozen Core remains unchanged, I'll...I'll...

Well, I'll sputter in futile rage like Daffy Duck, that's what I'll do.

Were the extra damage debuffs from imp scorch removed? I do not see it any longer on the main warcraft site talent calculator for the wotlk beta talents. I believe I did see it there earlier but I could have been mistaken.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Mage -> Talent Calculator

its still all 3 school on wotlk.

Have you been able to test the rumored 9% hit cap on +3 level/boss mobs or the rumored "No more 1% resist"?

Or point to a link confirming them if that's already been done. :/

I'm not really interested in working out that kind of mechanic until i reach 77. Right now I don't even have frostfire bolt so its quite my priority at the moment.

As far as unexpected stuff goes, invis down to 3min cd, brain freeze doesn't work, fingers of frost doesn't work either.

Manly vs mob +5. Note: no elemental precision, but 164/13% hit.

Manly's Frostbolt misses Longneck Grazer.
Manly's Frostbolt misses Longneck Grazer.
Manly's Frostbolt hits Longneck Grazer for 620 Frost.(1860 Resisted)
Manly gains Fingers of Frost.
Manly's Frostbolt misses Longneck Grazer.
Water Elemental's Waterbolt misses Longneck Grazer.
Manly's Frostbolt hits Longneck Grazer for 625 Frost.(1876 Resisted)
Water Elemental's Waterbolt hits Longneck Grazer for 233 Frost.(701 Resisted)
Manly's Frostbolt hits Longneck Grazer for 634 Frost.(1903 Resisted)
Water Elemental's Waterbolt misses Longneck Grazer.
Manly's Frostbolt hits Longneck Grazer for 652 Frost.(1522 Resisted)
Fingers of Frost fades from Manly.
Manly's Frost Nova hits Longneck Grazer for 129 Frost.(387 Resisted)
Water Elemental's Waterbolt misses Longneck Grazer.
Water Elemental's Waterbolt misses Longneck Grazer.
Manly's Frostbolt hits Longneck Grazer for 1120 Frost.(1608 Resisted) (Critical)
Manly's Ice Lance hits Longneck Grazer for 678 Frost.(973 Resisted) (Critical)
Manly's Ice Lance hits Longneck Grazer for 1035 Frost.(742 Resisted) (Critical)
Water Elemental's Waterbolt misses Longneck Grazer.
Manly's Ice Lance misses Longneck Grazer.
Water Elemental's Waterbolt hits Longneck Grazer for 329 Frost.(492 Resisted)
Manly's Ice Lance misses Longneck Grazer.
Water Elemental's Waterbolt hits Longneck Grazer for 267 Frost.(622 Resisted)
Manly's Frostbolt misses Longneck Grazer.
Manly's Frostbolt misses Longneck Grazer.
Water Elemental's Waterbolt misses Longneck Grazer.
Manly's Frostbolt misses Longneck Grazer.
Water Elemental's Waterbolt hits Longneck Grazer for 217 Frost.(651 Resisted)
Manly's Frostbolt hits Longneck Grazer for 1111 Frost.(1594 Resisted) (Critical)
Water Elemental's Waterbolt hits Longneck Grazer for 214 Frost.(641 Resisted)
Manly's Frostbolt hits Longneck Grazer for 531 Frost.(1594 Resisted)
Water Elemental's Waterbolt misses Longneck Grazer.
Manly's Frostbolt hits Longneck Grazer for 1351 Frost.(1508 Resisted) (Critical)
Manly's Ice Lance hits Longneck Grazer for 661 Frost.(949 Resisted) (Critical)
Water Elemental's Waterbolt misses Longneck Grazer.
Manly has slain Longneck Grazer!
Manly's Ice Lance hits Longneck Grazer for 660 Frost.(947 Resisted) (Critical)

--- edit:
also, a shitload of partial resists vs +2 mobs

A question to the theorycrafters: how would an heavy Arcane spec (Blast/Barrage spam) benefit from spending 3 points into Incanter's Absorption - Spell - World of Warcraft ? As I understand it, it would severely limit the ability to either pick up Imp. Scorch or pick up Icy Veins and fill out on Arcane talents. Assuming a 4000 absorption from PW:S up to every 15 seconds (depending heavily on the fight), how would Incanter's Absorption then affect personal DPS?
It would most likely require different calculations depending on different assumptions, such as only 2k absorb over 30 seconds, 4k absorb over 30 seconds and 4k absorb every 15 seconds (being re-shielded as Weakened Soul wears off). I'm sure the Priests would also be quite interested in seeing the numbers.

If the mechanics stated in this post are correct (it's the only post I've seen describing how it works this patch), 4k worth of absorb is 600 SP for 10 seconds. Plugging an extra 600 damage into Lhivera's Numbers (and taking out the AP coefficient), you get:

Normal ABr->AB/MBAM: 2578.47 dps
Absorb ABr->AB/MBAM: 3210.11 dps (124.5%)

If it's 4k every 15 seconds, it works out to be a 16.3% dps boost. In theory, it shouldn't matter whether the damage occurs as a 4k hit at 0 seconds or as a 267 damge dot every second, the damage added should be the same but the burst gets it all in 10 seconds while the dot stretches it out over 25s. In practice, that's not going to happen due to MB procs occuring some times and not others. There's also the possibility of coordinating cooldowns on a fight with regular raid damage (think Najentus) to get a lot more out of it.

In any case, it seems like it'd be really situational unless heavy raid damage fights are the norm in LK. I wouldn't use it to justify Disc PvE utility, which is what you're fishing for. It does, however, seem like a solid option when running a RMP team.

aside: I am of the opinion that the main utility of disc will be making Spirit Link safer, but that value will depend on spirit link mechanics.

With no haste gear, only WoA, a 35% crit rate, no crit damage buffs other than the Spell Power talent, AB spam, and a fully debuffed target, the DPS of AB spam scales with about 110% of spell power. A PW:S provides 10 seconds of 15% absorbed, so for a 4k shield refreshed (and used) every 15 seconds, that'd be 66% uptime of 4000*.15 = 600 spell power, or an effective 400 spell power over the course of the fight. Increasing the time between absorptions would lower the uptime, while decreasing the amount absorbed would lower the bonus spell damage, which both would negatively impact the effective spell power gain. Anyway, a 400 spell power gain with AB spam would be a 440 DPS gain.

ABar gets about 127% of spell power to DPCT. AM would get about 83% if we use it. MBAM's would get 167%. MBAM and ABar aren't spammable of course, so it is harder to determine how much of an effect it would have. Saving MBAM procs until you took a large hit with a shield up would magnify the effectiveness. Zero stack AB's scale at about 76% of spell power.

I've updated my numbers to account for some druid/shaman/metagem buffs and the Barrage coefficient change. I've also moved the detailed info to my own site for easier maintenance. It can all be found here. This includes deep Arcane/Fire/Frost builds (one each), and Frost numbers both with and without FRW. I'll add +10% crit, +1200 spell power and +5% haste tomorrow, and when I get time start working on a couple other builds. I've also rounded most numbers to 4 places that were previously more precise for easier reading.