Something I think that you guys are forgetting is that ABar arcane seems to be competitive with 0/34/37, but both of those specs beat out deep frost and deep fire... so in all honesty unless you're the only mage taken to raids then there's no reason to force yourself to get imp scorch for a deep arcane build... just make sure that the raid has at least 1 FFB mage and you're set and no need to build a deep arcane build around getting imp scorch.
Plus, I get the feeling that FFB will end up being the higher dps spec either way... and if that's true then it really doesn't matter. ABar coeffient nerf ftl.
Confirm that everything is still broken and there's thus nothing to test. =\
Are people still thinking that Barrage->Ablast is sustainable with perfect timing at 33%?
Not even remotely sustainable. My models are showing an ABr -> 2x Arcane Blast isn't even sustainable at 80, and I'm counting on Arcane Blast resetting each time you use ABr. Maybe with some absurd group support, innervates and the like, or a super short boss, but I wouldn't count on it. 6 minutes is the benchmark I've been using since Sunwell and unless level 80 gear is absolutely stacked to the brim with intellect/spirit with no alternative, there's simply no reasonable way.
A page or two ago I noticed a few people talking about FFB doing 'frostfire' damage, so that it's even doing the fire DoT on fire immune mobs. So can anyone on the beta test if FFB gets the damage type-specific increasing talents from both schools at all times? Such as the increased fire damage from scorch, and the increased frost damage from Arctic Winds, (not to be confused with the question of talents worded as 'frost/fire damage spells' which has already been confirmed numerous times).
A page or two ago I noticed a few people talking about FFB doing 'frostfire' damage, so that it's even doing the fire DoT on fire immune mobs. So can anyone on the beta test if FFB gets the damage type-specific increasing talents from both schools at all times? Such as the increased fire damage from scorch, and the increased frost damage from Arctic Winds, (not to be confused with the question of talents worded as 'frost/fire damage spells' which has already been confirmed numerous times).
You are so far behind the curve that it hurts. Please read the thread. Nearly every talent outside of the range and empowerment talents affects it.
Not even remotely sustainable. My models are showing an ABr -> 2x Arcane Blast isn't even sustainable at 80, and I'm counting on Arcane Blast resetting each time you use ABr. Maybe with some absurd group support, innervates and the like, or a super short boss, but I wouldn't count on it. 6 minutes is the benchmark I've been using since Sunwell and unless level 80 gear is absolutely stacked to the brim with intellect/spirit with no alternative, there's simply no reasonable way.
Does your model take into account the way Judgement of Wisdom now functions? If not, how would a 4sec inner cooldown 700 mana proc at 100% proc-rate would change sustainability for Barrage > Blast rotations?
Theorycrafting procedures per role:
DPS = Theory -> Spreadsheet -> Practice
Healing = Theory -> Practice -> Logs
Tanking = Theory -> Theory -> Theory
The official Talent Calculator has been updated with some new changes.
Notables:
- Winter's Chill reduced to 3 ranks, still increases crit chance by 10% when fully stacked, but also applies to Fire and Arcane now.
- Fiery Payback gives Pyro a 5s cooldown while under 35% health, in addition to previous effect.
This is perhaps beyond the scope/intention of this thread, but what do we want as far as the relative strength of our raid specs?
On the one hand, it sucks to be pigeonholed into a single spec. (2/48/11 currently) It's boring, repetitive, blah blah blah.
But as the specs become closer in DPS, you're going to be able to min-max according to the encounter.
Say boss X can be killed in 2:30, Arcane shines with double AP coming up near perfectly. So does deep frost (80% WE uptime and 2IVs?) Extend the fight to 5minutes and you see 60% WE uptime and 3 IVs, but make that fight 4 minutes or 6minutes, and you're down to 50%. It's obvious what's best on fights where WE dies, but depending on fight duration and how cooldowns lineup, if the specs are close enough, there's decent room for min-maxing. This is pretty obvious to everyone here, but what's the "right" balance?
It's sort of a dumb question, but if say Deep Frost did more damage than any other spec with only 40% WE uptime, I think we'd be pretty dissatisfied that 2/3 talent trees were worthless in raiding. (and PvP lol) Normally, this is one of those, "Blizz will do what it likes" things, but with the latest iteration of changes, it feels like now is a pretty good opportunity to push for the changes you want to see. I don't really have much insight.
With 962 dmg, my WE hits for 834-901 it seems. I'd take off my gear, but I don't have space. =p
Some new talents in talent calc btw:
Cold as Ice - Tier 6 Requires Cold Snap - Reduces CD on WE, Cold Snap, Ice Barrier, and DF by 20% 2/2
Tier 1 Frost - Ice Floes - Reduced CD on Frost Nova, CoC, IB, IV by 20% 3/3 <== 3/3
Spell Impact - Changed to Crit. (GAYED)
Fiery Payback - 5sec CD on Pyro
Blastwave - No Knockback mentioned, but it was never correct, so who knows
Pyro - 6sec Cast - Probably wrong on Talent Calc because blizz calc is bad
FROZEN CORE - JUST KIDDING - ITS FUCKING UNCHANGED STILL
Other Notable Changes, A lot/most of these are apparently not in game, but they are in the patch notes so should be added at some point. As always it's hit or miss on what goes in/doesn't go into beta. =)
Elemental Precision moved to tier 2.
Empowered Frostbolt reduced to 2 ranks, increases damage by 5/10% of spell power and increases critical hit chance by 2/4%.
Frost Channeling now reduces mana cost of all spells by 4/7/10%. Not on Calculator but posted by Blue.
Frost Warding now increases armor and resistances of Frost/Ice Armor by 25/50%, now gives Frost Ward and Fire Ward a 15/30/50% chance to negate damage caused and restore mana equal to damage caused by the warded spell. (Wording was a bit messed up on this one not sure if its 15/30/50, also not on calculator but posted by Blue.)
Improved Frost Nova renamed Ice Floes, moved to tier 1, increased to 3 ranks, now reduces cooldown of Frost Nova, Cone of Cold, Ice Block, and Icy Veins by 7/14/20%.
Mind Mastery reduced to 3/6/9/12/15%.
New Frost Talent where Ice Floes used to be: Cold as Ice: Reduces cooldown on Coldsnap, Ice Barrier, Deep Freeze, and Water Elemental by 10/20%.
One more notable pvp Change Improved Counterspell now always silences the target for 2/4 seconds. Believe that means instead of 50/100% for 4 seconds its now. 100% chance for 2/4 seconds.
Does your model take into account the way Judgement of Wisdom now functions? If not, how would a 4sec inner cooldown 700 mana proc at 100% proc-rate would change sustainability for Barrage > Blast rotations?
700 mana every 4 seconds? That's pretty significant. Are we positive this is how it works at 80?
The official Talent Calculator has been updated with some new changes.
Notables:
- Winter's Chill reduced to 3 ranks, still increases crit chance by 10% when fully stacked, but also applies to Fire and Arcane now.
- Fiery Payback gives Pyro a 5s cooldown while under 35% health, in addition to previous effect.
Frost Nova cooldown talent is gone, Icy Floes moved to Tier 1, Elemental Precision moved to Tier 2, Shatter no longer has a pre-req (was Frost Nova talent), new talent Cold as Ice, Frozen Core still worthless, Brain Freeze unchanged, Empowered Frostbolt is buggy on the calculator - maybe changed to 3 ranks?, knockback taken off Blastwave.
Edit: Vontre - http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t28560-p...50/#post837067
Basically the way Judgement of Wisdom now works is that it scales by 9% of the Paladin's AP and SP at the time of the proc. Paladins get 30% AP -> SP conversion. The 700 mana a proc is a conservative estimate - I'd say 900-1000 by the time Arthas dies. This may be subject to change, obviously, but as far I know this is how it works on the beta right now.
To clarify further: Paladin has 6000AP and the raid gets 700 mana a proc on JoW. Paladin uses a cooldown to increase his AP, the whole raid gets more mana on each JoW proc.
Last edited by Zaroua : 08/02/08 at 2:33 AM.
Theorycrafting procedures per role:
DPS = Theory -> Spreadsheet -> Practice
Healing = Theory -> Practice -> Logs
Tanking = Theory -> Theory -> Theory
Encounter min-maxing is affected by a lot more than just the duration. Effectiveness of burst (say kalecgos, you want to hit the demon harder than the dragon), pushback, movement required, even survivability... these are all valid considerations. The trend has been generally torward movement being a minimal concern, and a difficult fight is usually 5 minutes or longer. The two sides of the coin are sustained dps, and situational benefit. I'd rather those two aspects were balanced in parallel, so each spec brings roughly the same standard sustained dps, and have equal value in various side benefits, which is harder to quantify.
Edit: Our cone of cold cooldown reduction is gone, nooooo. =(
Moonkin get a lot out of an elementalist mage now - +10% dmg and +10% crit to Starfire (oddly, the actual Arcane tree has no +arcane debuffs, which is kinda retarded as they are the ones that get the most benefit from moonkin (+6% damage from Earth and Moon). This also basically invalidates Eclipse for all moonkin with elemental mages (the talent that encourages alternating Wrath and Starfire spam), unless equivalent +nature damage skills have been added to shaman somewhere.
An odd set of changes - decoupling Shatter/better WC is nice but the other changes are just confusing.
Wow, I really feel for the guy that is maintaining the official talent calculator. Half the data is still out of date, so I wouldn't try to model anything on it. But, along with the patch notes we can at least see what's coming on the horizon.
The Great Mage Talent Shuffle has begun!
Edit: Anyone else notice the wording change on Missile Barrage?
Gives your Arcane Barrage, Fireball, Frostbolt and Frostfire Bolt spells a 15% chance to reduce the channeled duration of the next Arcane Missiles spell by 2.5 secs and fire missiles every .5 sec.
vs the old -
Gives your Arcane Barrage, Fireball, Frostbolt and Frostfire Bolt spells a 15% chance to reduce the channeled duration of the next Arcane Missiles spell to 2.5 secs and fire missiles every .5 sec.
Note: Says Arcane Barrage not Arcane Blast, but the poor sap probably doesn't know the difference.
Anyone have any idea how the "next spell" thing works on Fingers of Frost? Is it possible to do a shatter combo using it? Meaning frostbolt in the air, ice lance both get the frozen effect since both are cast when the FoF is active?
If that is possible it seems that Blizzard could intent: FB, FB, FB, FoF proc, Deep Freeze/IL combo to make dps a little more dynamic.
i'll just go back to bed and get some more sleep.. (it's early in the morning here in Denmark.. too early for me clearly)
It's ok, maybe we'll get another talent, like Cold as Ice, named for a Foreigner song(I had to look up the artist, but I recognized the name - GET OFF OF ME!!!) or another 80s song.
Fingers of Frost is NYI, so it can't be tested atm. My guess would be that it will work like Hot Streak does now. Allowing you to get the Fb->IL off. I don't think you'll be using Deep Freeze with it, unless you feel like stunning something.
This is perhaps beyond the scope/intention of this thread, but what do we want as far as the relative strength of our raid specs?
On the one hand, it sucks to be pigeonholed into a single spec. (2/48/11 currently) It's boring, repetitive, blah blah blah.
Currently, you're not pigeonholed into any spec. If you're not pigeonholed into any spec, that means unevitably one spec will do better dps than another under specific scenarios/gear levels, which will lead min/maxers to always be pigeonholed by your definition.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
You seem to have put on a little weight since the last time I saw you. You should think about losing a few points or combining some of your talents. To be honest, some of your "talents" leave a lot to be desired. Your top half seems to be shaping up nicely, but your lower half looks like a train wreck, at the moment. I will admit that Fire is doesn't seem to be doing much better. But, you've always been my favorite talent tree.
Please make it worthwhile to spec 51+ points into you. But, at the same time don't force me to spend more than 60 to get all the basics.
...As another example, Ebon Plague may offer the same effect as Curse of Elements (and neither will stack). You'll want someone to bring the debuff, but you may not need both debuffers in one raid....
So I found out about a nifty way to use Hot Streak. Supposedly if you do a fire blast immediately after your bonus critical spell, both the fire blast and fireball will crit, giving you +2 crits for your next streak. Which means a decent chance of proccing another streak, that you can again take advantage of if you're specced improved fire blast.
This latest stuff isn't posted on magegraf yet, I need to refine it and I'm tired. Arcane looks about the same dps as Frostfire, which seems kinda useless because Arcane has to mooch WC as well.
Edit: re frostfire, I just forgot to turn off Arctic Winds and fucked up my calculations. After some painstaking re-evaluation it looks like 0/30/41 and 0/50/21 are dead even, with the obvious advantage of the ice build having winter's chill for itself. I think I need some rest.
08/02/08, 12:30 AM
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