Alvira

Focus magic seems to be more suited for 5 man and 10 man dungeons. In a 25 man raid where it is likely to have all 50 charges eaten up in a very short amount of time, it really defeats it purpose. I don't think they envisioned mage taking on the role of a full time debuffer. Yet, this spell, in a 25 man environment is precisely that. It turns arcane mages into full time debuffers. Not to mention the high mana cost would leave mage with much less mana to do damage overall.

 

AShadowyMage

Focus Mind is pretty good in theory. What I believe should be done is to give it a cooldown (probably 60 seconds or so), raise the damage (directly) or charges (damage indirectly) it does a bit, and take it off the GCD (although the latter isn't necessary).

I like the changes made to winter chill as it does give a good reason to bring a high frost (or FFB elementalist spec) mage with it affecting mages, fire locks and moonkins.

 

Evice

I'd like to get some ideas about this talent build.
War Tools :: Talent tree Wotlk Beta Build 8719 Expected Talents

it is 0/28/52. If I m not mistaken, all talents like "Increases Frost dmg...." and "Increases fire dmg..." effects Frostfire bolt. Thus I have created this raiding built.

Can I get some ideas and perspectives? This looks straight lots of dps with lots of gadgets to play with in a boss fight as in keep scorch up, keep an eye on your mana gem cds, pot timer, your IV and WE usage etc.

Looked promising to me unless I made a dire mistake of my assumptions on FrostfireBolt.

 

Etherealz

While I agree that it could be changed a lot for the better, you must understand that it's 'worth' is not dependent on how many people are eating charges. It's still worth the same per cast. The only thing that would change it is WHO is eating up the debuffs as it seems to only scale with crits.

 

Vair

You need to be level 89 for that build.

 

Nurru

Why did you get Chilled to the Bone 5/5 rather than maxing out Fire Power? Flame Throwing isn't very useful either, unless you care about Fireblast. You didn't get Blastwave either (Yet got pyro? ...) so I'm not sure what your aim here is since this spec isn't ideal for single target dps or aoe. As the above poster mentioned you also used too many points (and they didn't go into worthwhile places from the looks of it).

War Tools :: Talent tree Wotlk Beta Build 8719 Expected Talents is more like what you'll probably see out of elementalist builds. There's some room for debate regarding Playing with Fire, but there's absolutely no reason to not max out Fire Power and Molten Fury.

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

Alvira

Yeah., but if it turns mages from Magic DPSer into magic debuffer, then it would have defeated its purpose. Its purpose is to give mages some sort of synergy and a reason to bring mages for raids. But not at the cost of it being a full time job and changing mage's role in raids so radically.

 

Ylara

We briefly tested it in an instance the other day and even the tank's melee swings were eating charges. Didn't test it much further than that since its obviously broken just now.

 

Nurru

Ouch, I hadn't notice that but I tested with a rogue who was poisoning/rupturing anyway.

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

radikal

So, one 53/18 mage who rotates damage with being focus magic bitch and one ffb mage who keeps up both imp scorch and WC.

 

Roywyn

One 11/18/42 mage + 1 fire warlock. I shouldn't have added them to my sheet, I know.

Did it increase poison damage by the rogue?
I was wondering that too since the debuff seemed to work and scale like +spell damage on the target.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Alvira

Yeah, and if you can find a mage who is willing to spec that way, plus who is willing to do focus magic, scorch x5, frostbolt x 5, focus magic again, etc as a routine... lol.

 

Evice

sorry the calculator or my computer must have crapped out. level 89 funny

 

aikiwoce

I think the Mage community as a whole should condemn the idea behind Focus Magic. Do we need a new talented spell that poorly imitates a non-talented one(Amplify Magic)?

Edit: Removed most of the content of this post. I thought about it, and it doesn't really belong here. Hopefully I'll get into Beta, and bug the Blues to no end there.

 

WarTotem

Ok, I finally got to do my math. I based my numbers on the latest Wowhead talent calculator (Beta build 8714) and here is what I got:

Arcane spec
Fire spec
Frost spec
FFB spec

Low & High numbers borrowed from Lhivera and added 120mp5 on low and 200mp5 on high. (Noticed too late I had entered the 120 mp5 on Low so scaled it up at the same rate as spell power)
I tried out a whole bunch of cycles, especially for Arcane, so here it goes ...

Frost spec:
Low: 3080,25 DPS & 18,75 DPM
High: 4928,25 DPS & 28,59 DPM

Frostfire spec:
Low: 3076,69 DPS & 23,9 DPM, with 10:1 Scorch cycle; 3031,67 DPS & 23,17 DPM
High: 5058,84 DPS & 39,28 DPM, with 11:1 Scorch cycle; 4987,28 DPS & 38,04 DPM
(Assumed Fire damage on FFB)

Fire spec:
If you're going for max DPS:
Low: 3010,34 DPS & 14,61 DPM (3FBa-1FBl), with 3:1 Scorch; 2976,83 DPS & 14,68 DPM
High: 4963,44 DPS & 24,15 DPM (3FBa-1FBl), with 3:1 Scorch; 4918,35 DPS & 24,32 DPM
If you're going for more efficiency:
Low: 3031,67 DPS & 16,64 DPM (FBa), 10:1 Scorch; 2919,3 DPS & 16,64 DPM
High: 4904,06 DPS & 27,5 DPM (FBa), 11:1 Scorch; 4863,52 DPS & 27,58 DPM

Arcane spec:
I did cycles for 1-4 AB each and with and without Scorch, so it's rather lengthy
Low cycles:
ABar - 1AB: 2939,04 DPS & 16,26 DPM, 8:1 Scorch; 2907,4 DPS & 16,36 DPM
ABar - 2AB: 2925,20 DPS & 15,95 DPM, 5:1 Scorch; 2894,29 DPS & 16,04 DPM
ABar - 3AB: 3018,65 DPS & 14,30 DPM, 3,75:1 Scorch; 2967,28 DPS & 14,69 DPM (Scorch replaces the last AB)
ABar - 4AB: 3149,39 DPS & 12,27 DPM, 2,8:1 Scorch; 3072,89 DPS & 13,24 DPM (Scorch replaces the last AB)
High cycles:
ABar - 1AB: 4848,26 DPS & 23,89 DPM, 9:1 Scorch; 4805,80 DPS & 24,11 DPM
ABar - 2AB: 4930,32 DPS & 23,85 DPM, 5:1 Scorch; 4879,90 DPS & 24,05 DPM
ABar - 3AB: 5106,25 DPS & 21,89 DPM, 4:1 Scorch; 5053,53 DPS & 22,12 DPM
ABar - 4AB: 5314,81 DPS & 19,89 DPM, 3:1 Scorch; 5251,23 DPS & 20,13 DPM

And last but not least, ABar-AM PoM cycle:
Low: 3401,09 DPS & 16,54 DPM
High: 5165,17 DPS & 24,99 DPM

Conclusion:
ABar-AM PoM cycle is the best DPS if you have Low gear, while ABar-4AB becomes slightly better when you get the gear.
Frostfire is by far the best spec for efficiency, regardless of gear.
Both full Fire and Frost are more efficient then Arcane, while not being extremely far behind on DPS. Frost is even more efficient then Fire, but does lack a few useful abilties, especially for AoE.

Additional Info:
* Scorch cycle ratios are with the entire previous cycle, not just 1 spell.
* I excluded Fireball & Frostfire DoTs, because their impact on overall DPS is not worth the extra math.
* I left out Arcane Power, Combustion and Icy Veins, simply because besides the possible combinations with BL/Trinkets, they all grant comparable increases in DPS, depending on gear choices (IV would already cap GCD on ABar with High gear).
* AoE fights play in favor of Magic Absorption, while playing against WE uptime. I excluded both untill I can get a better view on lvl 80 raid environments
* I calculated MBAM as replacing the spell that procced it in your DPS cycle (=AB). I have yet to build a model for XAB-ABar-[MB]AM-Abar cycles.
* Hot Streak calculations are done assuming that there are no 'rolling streaks' with the guaranteed crit. The calculated crit gain from Hot Streak is (talent_points / 3) * (100% – crit_rate%) * (crit_rate%)^3

Assumptions:
* Frostfire Bolt working correctly (no dubble dipping)
* All spells gaining 3% crit from Arcane Concentration/Potency combo, might not be correct for Arcane Missiles.
* No specific Armor on, as they are largely dependant on the situation. Usefulness for Molten Armor would give Elem>Fire>Frost>Arcane order, while Mage Armor gives Arcane>Fire>Frost>Elem.
* Almost all possible buffs available, being;
- Mage: Focus Magic, imp. Scorch, Winter's Chill, Chaotic Skyfire Diamond
- Warlock: Curse of Elements (with Malediction)
- Priest: Misery
- Shaman: Totem of Wrath, Elemental Oath
- Druid: Moonkin Aura (improved)
- Paladin: Retribution Aura (Swift Retribution, but not improved atm)
- Death Knight: Frozen Runeweapon (only for Frost spec)

I will update my data once I have Improved Divine Spirit(Priest) and Sanctified Retribution(Paladin) talents and an option for a choice between MBAM adding to or swapping out a spell from your cycle.

 

Nurru

Your FFB spec gets Frostbite instead of Arctic Winds. Why would you do that?

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

Jonny_Monroe

The rpoblem with FM is twofold - one, in a raid enviroment its far too mana/time intensive to keep up, and 2; the DPM of it is quite low, and at higher gear levels the DPCT of it can easilly fall below the DPCT of the mage's nukes, making the ability a net DPS loss overall. Both of these problems can be fixed by increasing the number of charges, although it may be tricky to balance between 10 and 25. You could always just remove the charges idea but then you're removing an obvious balancing mechanic. Blizzard are better at fixing problems than me so i'll leave that.

OMNOMNOM.

 

aikiwoce

Hence why it should be scrapped. They should adapt existing mage mechanics rather than creating entirely new ones. The recent talent changes show a move toward modifying/adapting non-beneficial mechanics. I'd really like to see a use for Amplify Magic outside of non-magic damage boss fights.

 

WarTotem

Non-boss targets I guess. Since I don't have a beta key myself (oh opt-in key, where are thou?) so I went with the tooltip info, which does state that the target needs to be vulnerable to Frost Damage, not 'whichever does the most'. I went with the logic that since Arctic Winds will only be useful on mobs and bosses with Fire resistance, Frostbite is useful for all mobs (but not bosses), especially on trash and for solo-play.
Doesn't really matter though, I excluded both talents from my math, as I did it for a boss with no Fire Res.

 

Nurru

You don't seem to understand the mechanics of FFB. It does not switch between fire and frost damage, it uses a unified "Frostfire" damage that gains from both types.

Oddly enough, Firepower affects Frostfire Bolt's listed tooltip damage, but Piercing Ice and Arctic Winds do not. However, they don't update the tooltips for Frost spells either. I'm pretty sure Piercing Ice used to, can someone confirm that for me? As far as I can tell, on beta Firepower is the only talent showing this.

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

radikal

So Blizzard doesn't reliably do damage right now for me.. Or Arcane Explosion. Good build.

 

Talbain

How much does the 10% Mind Mastery nerf hurt Arcane?

 

coolballer

As far as I have heard, frostfire bolt does gain from piercing ice and arctic winds. I am not however in beta, so I cannot test this and thus it is merely hearsay until someone who can actually test this confirms it.

 

Nurru

I've tested it, it definitely does. I'll post numbers in a few.

Untalented Frostfire bolt:
1817 1802 1836 1781 1812 1769 1802 1788 1831 1750 1773 1806 1799 1794 1818 1839 1806 1832 1793 1841 1758 1777 1812 1779 1817
Average: 1801.28

Frostfire Bolt with 5/5 Arctic Winds and 3/3 Piercing Ice:
2043 2030 1964 1965 1983 2020 2005 2057 1978 1994 1949 1994 2056 2000 1964 2039 2038 2014 1978 1988 1969 1954 2040 1980 1987
Average: 1999.56
If you do the math, that's approximately a 11% damage increase.

Frostfire Bolt with 5/5 Arctic Winds, 3/3 Piercing Ice and 5/5 Fire Power
2260 2176 2227 2208 2181 2249 2216 2207 2185 2150 2143 2197 2188 2214 2179 2264 2232 2160 2245 2225 2145 2198 2223 2148 2174
Average: 2199.76
This is appropriate for the % increases.

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

Malfeas

Question about MBAM: with the recent change to the talent's wording, does anyone know if haste effects are calculated as a percentage of the 5 second cast time, and then the cast reduced by an additional 2.5 seconds? Or is it reduced by 2.5, then haste calculated from a 2.5 sec base cast time?

If it's the former, MBAM would be closer to seeing cast times near the original 3.5 sec reduction iteration of the talent, and with enough haste, even faster.