Actually from Manly's post spell penetration doesn't do anything at all (for higher level mobs), ie. with 20 spp and 170 spp the partial resists aren't affected in any major way. I've averaged the percentage of partials (yes I know the result set is very small) and both show about the same percent of partials or to the point the percentage isn't lower with 170 spp.

Does Misery produce similar effects? Because it would be interesting to see how double dipping actually works and what possible extra uses you could get out of it.

Considering Misery does only 1 effect, namely increase all magical damage against a target (similar to e.g. Warrior's Blood Frenzy for physical dmg), while CoE seems to have several effects (being, 10% nature dmg, 10% fire dmg, ...) it could show us a new insight as to how game mechanics for debuffs exactly work. And if the double dipping is debuff-related rather then related to FfB spell, it would also explain why it takes so long to fix it, having to change all dmg increasing abilities ingame :P

That's exactly the same bug that currently affects 2xT5, except in this case it hurts us rather than helps. I wonder if they'll finally fix it. This may also imply that the mana cost reduction on Arcane Focus only applies to the 0-stack cost; that needs testing.


I'm not quite following. I gather you mean that, for example, Arcane Missiles doesn't get +30% crit on both the cast that procs Clearcasting and the cast that consumes it, but I'm not sure from what you said which cast is retaining the 30% crit. It should be the free cast that consumes the buff, but it sounds from what you're saying that the cast that procs it gets 30% crit, while the cast that consumes it is free but does not get 30% crit.

That seems to imply that double-dipping damage debuffs and Elemental Precision is also not intended. I'm not sure if people's simulations have been based on that double-dipping or not, but if so, worth reconsidering.

I believe some Elemental talents increase the bonus on FTT, could that account for the inconsistency? I think it's 73 at base, up to 84 talented.

I don't know whether it's causing the issue, but Improved Enhancing Totems in the Enhancement tree does indeed improve the effect of Flametongue Totem. At least, it says it does. ;p

All mana cost talents/effects are additive, not muliplicative.

You could see that in BC beta, where Clearcasting with 1/2/3-stacked Arcane Blast still cost a considerable amount of mana.
They fixed clearcasting to actually make the spells free then.

It's the same with 2T5 and Arcane Power in stacked Blasts only marginally increasing the damage.
Master of Elements/Illumination have always worked on the base mana cost as well.

Whether it's a bug, intended, or whether Blizzard simply doesn't know, I have no idea.
I always assumed everything as additive in my sheets because every I checked so far actually behaved that way.


2) Flametongue Totem is currently bugged to only give +25 spell power regardless of rank, as far as I read.
No sure which talents actually work or not.


On Focus Magic:
I like the basic concept of the spell, but it needs a few significant changes to be viable.
Charges/cost/duration/cooldown/GCD/charge use need some adjustments.
Making is scales with a percentage the mages "int+dmg" would make sure it scales somehow, and give arcane another incentive for intellect on gear.

"Tweaking it so that you have an incentive to use multiple mages." That's actually a tough one.
If it's tuned that it forces every mages into 11 arcane, it's bad design.
Making other mages be able to contribute to the debuff/improve it wihout having the talent would help.

Something like "Increases Magic Damage taken by 5% of your <int+dmg>. Other mages casting a spell on the target with Focus Magic increase the damage taken by 5% <or maybe 3% as penalty for not having the talent> of these mages' <int+dmg>."

Just some thoughts on how Focus Magic could be improved to make it scale and give an incentive to bring more than one mage.
Stopping here because I don't like "what if XXX would do YYY" either, but wanted to share my thoughts on that.

One way to avoid confusion/clarify would be to ask that intentionally multiplicative effects be preceded by the word "total" or a similar word if total wouldn't make sense. I.E. "The Clearcasting state reduces the total mana cost of your next damage spell by 100%"

I just tested, with 0/0/0 talents on live, AB w/2t5 went:

234, 380, 526, 672

OK, so that explains what's up with 2xT5 (thanks for that). The multiplicative nature of the mana-reduction talents, on the other hand, was established back in TBC beta. If you've got a deep Fire Mage, you should be able to verify that with 3/3 EP and 3/3 Pyromaniac and Flamestrike. Additive should result in a cost of 1105, multiplicative in a cost of 1106.

I stand corrected then. I thought I had checked EP+FC, but apparently not.
And Flamestrike is also 1175=>1106, hence multiplicative.

We should just simply check the mana costs of things when the beta build hits with -10% mana cost on all spells for Frost Channeling (according to future notes).

Including stuff with and without 2T5.

My guess then would be that mana cost modifiers are mostly multiplicative, but some things are additively rolled into one modifier.

Like <2T5 and debuff> are added into one factor now. Or like 4T6 and Firepower are added to +15% (at least in the Tooltip of the standard UI when I checked in 2.4) instead of being a *1.1*1.05 modifier.


Two questions to people in beta with 2T5:
* Is the 2T5 mana increase still fixed, or does it scale with debuffs?
* Is the +20% damage multiplied after the debuff, resulting in a 1.45*1.2 = 1.74 modifier, or addive resulting in 1+45%+20% = 1.65 total modifier?
Not that I don't expect T5 to get nerfed, but still ...


[Edit] for the poster below:
The new Scorch/Winter's Chill heavily affect Balance Druids and Warlocks with at least 30 points in Fire (5/5 Emberstorm is a talent that increases Incinerate DPS by 37.5%, fire is bad without it).
The impact on Shaman is pretty negligible, and the effect on Death Knights has yet to be determined, but it's not looking like it will be a major impact.
Frozen Runeweapon has also been scrapped for now and may or may not return as a Permanent Rune Weapon Enchant.

One of the things that worries me is the way that Imp Scorch and Winter's Chill are working out. Right now both debuffs are providing pretty significant buffs to Fire Warlocks and Boomkin and a lesser amount to Frost DKs and Shaman. I am worried that will push the first Mage in a 25 man to always spec Elementalist. Blizz has said before they don't like the idea of forcing a class to spec a certain way because they provide something that is so valuable. So we are probably looking at more tweaks to those talents.

As for Focus Magic linking it to another spell as a debuff would help it out. Turning FM into an Imp Shadow Bolt effect for Arcane Missiles would help turn AM into a spell that isn't so embarrassing.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at, Navette. Are you asking for every tree to offer exactly the same dps and raid benefits as every other tree so that no spec is "preferred" for the first Mage? Unless that's the case then there is always going to be a best spec for a particular gear and progression level and Mages will be "pushed" to go that spec. It's the same for every class really, aside from those with more of a hybrid role. It just so happens that right now Elementalist is the build that serves that purpose. It shouldn't be a problem unless you're clinging to a particular spec concept.

Maybe on arcane empowerment "...and your arcane blast, arcane missles and arcane barrage spells have a 5/10/15% chance on hit to add 10 charges to your focus magic effect."

Maybe put it on blue get a clue "...and they removed Focus Magic, replaced it with Slow, and have a 5/10/15% chance of replacing it with a useful spell."

On a little more serious note, I couldn't help but notice that every spell on Spell Impact was instant cast, except AB. It would make a little more sense to switch that out for ABar, and move the +dmg modifier for AB down into Arcane Empowerment.

I'd actually expect to see Focus Magic duration nerfed to 18-30 seconds, and see something that would fit the new refresh mechanics from SPriests and Warlocks put in deep Arcane:

'... your Arcane Barrage and Arcane Blast spells have a 25/50/75% chance to refresh your focus magic effect.'

Thus, an arcane mage refreshes his Focus Magic as a matter of course, similar to Affliction Locks refreshing Corruption and SPriests SW: Pain, and you don't have to spend one GCD per minute putting your Focus Magic effect back up.

*cough*Amplify Magic, reduce effectiveness by 50% on enemies, lasts half as long, scale it with 10% of your spirit, untalented worse than Focus Magic(120+), talented w/400 spirit gives 240+ per hit*cough*

You guys think with the change to Frost Channeling that Burning Soul will effect all our spells?

As I said in my post, the channelled spell cast with clearcasting doesn't get +30% crit, only if the channelled spell procs clearcasting it gets +30% crit. Its counterintuitive, but thats how it is.

also, flametongue gives ~25 spell power. I have seen it give 28 spell power too. its really random.

Why would a deep fire mage cast other spells than fire spells ? I mean, it would be nice, but nobody would care.

OK, that clears it up, thanks. It seems to open up the possibility of a lost crit bonus, though you'd pretty much have to try to make it happen:

Cast a bolt spell
Clearcast procs
Cancel casting your next bolt spell
Cast Arcane Missiles -- Clearcasting is consumed, no crit bonus

They really need to fix it to work the way it's really intended, with the crit bonus coming on the cast that doesn't cost you any mana.

RE Flametongue, if all ranks are stuck at 25, then a talented totem could deliver 28 spell power due to the somewhat random way in which Blizzard rounds things.

I realise now I thought you meant burnout instead of burning soul.

Are they serious with the new Arcane Potency, increasing crit by 30% while clearcasting or while Presence of Mind is active?
I guess Arcane Missiles won't consume the PoM-Buff, neither will Arcane Barrage.
Would that mean you could get permanent +30% crit for a 1x Arcane Barrage - 1x AM Rotation? Oo

Random little change a guildmate noticed: Water Elemental's spell range in Beta has been increased to a whopping 45 yards, for both Waterbolt and Freeze.

Just to recap on frost pve damage.



negatives

likely -3% built in spell hit change to the nature of binary resists.

-5% damage due to partial resists



Positives

+5% damage to frostbolt

+5% crit with a working fingers of frost

+10% frost damage ....from imp scorch.... 18 points into fire... wow.

15s more elemental duration

lower cooldown on water elemental -36s

lower cooldown on icy veins -36s




thoughts

the 5% damage from chilled to the bone is completely negated it seems from the damage lost due to partial resists, so that is a wash, and the -3% hit cuts into the 5% crit gains, still, the 10% more damage from frost is nice, though arcane was lifted by the same margin with the same spell.

What other dk synergy there may be I am not sure enough on at this point to comment on.


What do you all think? If Vivendi made you king, what would you tweak?


If I missed anything or mucked anything up feel free to correct me.

In the same category;
Does Frozen Core double dip as well? Or is that normal? Or not working against FfB at all?
Also, if FfB is interrupted, both Frost & Fire are locked out, but what happens when either Frost or Fire is locked down, will you still be able to cast FfB?