Lgs

Most classes are still speculating about the effects from changes with even more changes certainly coming before release. We aren't near enough to solid footing to judge anything on the raid scale. There is some decent math for DPS in this thread for mages, but in all likelihood, they are rough estimates.

That said, the seemingly lackluster mage improvements may, in the end, outpace changes to other classes. But I really doubt pallies will ever out-DPS us in a raid. It just won't happen.

Gnomes are creatures of destruction.

 

◊ manly

Don't look at the dps right now in wotlk. First, mobs have 0 armor because its bugged. That means heavily inflated numbers for many classes. Additionally paladins are broken, as was particularly evidenced before the latest patch, where pallies were 2 shotting any players.

In any case, lots of things are not settled down yet, and using them as proof is futile at best. Also LGS, currently I garantee you that a pally destroys the hell out of your dps on wotlk with the way things are at the moment.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Lgs

Right, but are they really doing to let a class that can tank and heal (along with providing still-decent utility) top the meters? Like you said: broken and not intended for live.

I mean, anything can happen, but pallies as #1 dps? That would be a questionable design choice.

Gnomes are creatures of destruction.

 

Zeldyrr

WoW Forums -> Feral Concerns in WotLK

The above quote was from a blue regarding bear tanking viability in WotLK, but I think it is relevant here. I think this quote can put to rest any idea that "frost is a pvp spec" or "fire is THE raiding spec". Blizzard is intending for all three mage specs (four if you count frostfire elementalists) to be competitive enough to bring to raids. Of course, for some of the minmax'er types, if one spec has a statistical 0.1% advantage in theorycrafting that is the equivalent of the spec being the one and ONLY spec. But for the rest of us, I think this quote from Blizzard is very encouraging.

 

Dorvan

Don't read much into it. I'm not sure if it's been fixed yet, but Judgment of Justice refreshes have been proc'ing Judgment damage, meaning a bunch of extra damage on every single swing for a Paladin. Just calm down and don't worry about obvious bugs and balance errors, that's what Beta is for.

 

◊ manly

I've always been advocating that classes able to fill more than 1 role should have a dps penalty. By that I am talking of dps / tanking / healing. The more of those roles you can fill, the more your individual roles should suffer.

Jack of all trades, master of none.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Bulgarth

I was looking at Nurru's signature looking at what talents effect Frostfire bolt, and I was wondering, wouldn't (judging by the wording) Critical Mass effect frostfire bolt? Yes or no?

 

Nurru

It's just one I forgot to list.

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

Skallewag

Well... in general I agree, but drifting to much in that direction only means the hybrid roles grow obsolete since its better to bring a pure class. Bear tanks for example cant suck at tanking because that locks bears out of raiding all together. Its better to give them some special stuff that warriors donw have and make warrior tanks abileties desired a bit more often than druid tank perks. Then both of them get to tank but it will be more common with warrior tanks than druid tanks. The other good way to go about this is to add a lot of utility to the hybrids. If you bring ok dps/healing and utility that makes for a good raid member.

 

Bulgarth

Ok, just was wondering cause I've been toying around with the spec. Seems promising. The alloted amounts of crit seems to be what will carry this build.

 

Mashin

I know Fingers of Frost is currently not working correctly, but has there been any speculation on it's impact to Frost DPS/rDPS over the previous WG talent?

 

aikiwoce

I've see that you went on a posting binge over in the Beta Mage forums there Manly. I'd like to comment on this post you made:The main problem I see with your armor is the lack of a scaling factor. It's pretty much the same when you first hit 80, and when you are in T9. I was toying around with the idea the other day and came up with the following:

PvE Armor - +150 Crit Rating(~3.25% @ 80) not Crit %, 30% Spirit to Dmg, 30% mana regen.

PvP Armor 1 - 50% DoT duration, -5% chance to be Crit, causes 170 dmg when hit.

PvP Armor 2 - +Armor like 1.5x what Ice Armor gives now, 40 resist all, slowing effect on hit.

I would then give a +30% effectiveness talent like Demonic Aegis for our armor spells. Either, split up and tacked onto talents in each tree, or replacing Arcane Fortitude. Each armor would then have a scaling component, and a specific function. Also the PvP armors would have a melee/magic specific use, but not be totally focused on one or the other.

On an unrelated note, Lhivera I read your updated Talent tree review and noticed a slight mistake. They are supposedly changing Shattered Barrier to not cast a Frost Nova, but rather just freeze nearby targets without causing damage. I agreed wholeheartedly with your assessment of the Mage's future.

 

Akston

Given the way the game has been since classic and up through TBC i don't exactly thing that is fair. When a class is specced and geared for dps in combat it can't really heal or tank very well at all. Sure they have the buttons there but they really don't do anything compared to someone that is actually specced/geared for tanking or healing. If gear and spec could be changed in combat or if a holy pallie or arms warrior could start tanking mid-fight because the MT died then you would have case for nerfing hybrids because they can do more than one thing. As it is even a feral druid will have a tough time switching from cat form in cat gear to viably tanking anything important. For all intents and purposes, once combat starts you are locked into the your role for the fight.

 

Lgs

The main point is that they do have the option of changing to another role entirely. That is more freedom than the pure-dps classes have (which is none at all).

Gnomes are creatures of destruction.

 

Nurru

I would argue that it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that they can respec to a new role, Lgs. It's that when they are in a dps role they are providing that of a hybrid function. Shadow Priests heal and provide mp5, Shaman provide group buffs depending on spec, Paladins provide raidwide crit and improved judgement uptime, Arms Warriors provide Blood Frensy, and Druids provide group benefit depending on their dps spec. If you compare these classes you can imagine a direct link to how valuable their hybrid functionality to how much damage they're actually allowed to put out (See also: Shadow Priests do shit dps). Rogues, Mages, Warlocks and non-survival Hunters do not provide anything like this.

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

Skallewag

Sure they can change to other roles. but if they cant perform any of the roles well enoughe it isnt really freedom at all, all you achieve by over penalizing them is give them zero choise. We have allready seen far to much of this pre TBC. Each class must be able to perform each of its role on a competetive level so they are all raid viable for end game content. Druids haveto be able to tank tier 9 raid bosses in notrhrend, DPS shammys haveto be able to put out enoughe DPS to validate a raidslot at the northrend version of Brutalus and healadins cant be completely blown out of the water by priests.

Good design is when all classes can perform their role really well and need eachother to perform their best. One of each healer should always be more powerfull than stacking one kind that just got tuned to be the best. Pre TBC there was way to much stacking of mages going on and in outland there has been way to much stacking of warlocks. Thats not good. Sure, let pure DPS classes top the damage meters, but not by to much. And then have the hybrid classes compensate by having group utility and areas they exel in. If there is no situation where a hybrid can outperform they pure class counterpart there is simply no reason for hybrids to exist. (and no, changing roles mid combat isnt a vallid enoughe argument to penalize hybrid performance. Gear and talents make to much of a diferance for that trick to be more than very situationally usefull)

 

Anedris

People are talking about two different things here.

In the game at present, "hybrids" do less DPS but they make up the difference through providing group or raid buffs. This is fair and works reasonably well - hybrids are brought to raids because their personal DPS plus their buffs is an acceptable level of output, and the pure DPSers are brought to raids because the hybrids are only good if there is someone to soak up their buffs. (Note that the ability to heal or tank is hardly necessary for this kind of "hybrid" - affliction warlocks and survival hunters are two examples of "pure DPS classes" that fill this buffer role.)

There is also the sense of "hybrid" in meaning a class that can do more than one thing. In most cases (TBC feral druids being the exception) it would not be fair to penalize the DPS output of specs on this basis because they cannot swap roles without a gear switch and respec. If moonkin brought no raid or group buffs and did 90% of the damage of a mage, no serious raiding guild would ever bring a moonkin. They wouldn't care that the moonkin has healing spells, because if they wanted a healer they would bring a healer.

It can also be noted that while some mages/hunters/warlocks/rogues see their inability to tank or heal as a drawback, there are other people who roll these classes precisely because they can't tank or heal (because they don't like tanking or healing and don't want the option of respeccing for the good of the group/guild to be available to them).

 

◊ manly

Ah, the easy answer. No, that is incomplete. I can assure you that even though you do not want, say, an elemental shaman healing your tank, or himself, it doesn't negate the fact that at least he has the option to. Something a mage does not have the option to do. It is simpler to explain in a solo farming case, where it much more obvious that something is off. Sure, I don't see a dps class start to heal in a raid, but for solo farming, you know what, I can definately see a use for it. Or having the option of being able to respec and go tanking if you need to solo a 3-man group quest.

This is something that a pure dps class does not have the option to do. I can't pull a clutch heal on my tank on a 5man group if my healer dies, I usually have no other options than trying to bruteforce things, or invis.

Besides, it doesn't makes much sense if a druid would be topping dps meters. It isn't about me hating druids, or believe they shouldn't have the option to. Its about the fact that if your druid can do more dps than a mage, then the mage serves absolutely no purpose. Why invite a mage when a druid can do better ? Or better yet, why even bother making a mage if it has less dps than a druid, given that the mage provides nothing else than only dps ?

--- edit: hell, I have another great example. I am sure it happenned to everyone at least more than once. You join a raid group, including 10mans and 25mans here. You're short one healer. A dps class proposes to respec healing. The raid continues.

--- edit #2: actually, I got another great example. Remember when blue/blizzcon said directly that since every class gains CC in wotlk the answer would be to up mage dps ? See, you have to give a dps value to non-raiding stuff too.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

◊ manly

How is 150 crit rating a better scaling factor than 3% more crit when you get in T9+ ? Or at lvl 90 ?
I don't think I follow.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

P51mus

There are other forms of utility other than healing and tanking.

Reliable crowd control, slows, roots, spell interrupts.

Comparing crowd control druids vs mages: roots lasts about half the time as polymorph does, and roots doesn't really help against casters/ranged mobs, only melee. (Time spent recasting CC definitely matters, especially if you've had any experience with Seduction which lasts only 15 seconds, and can only be recast again after it breaks)

AoE slow is something that can be very valuable if you need aoe, but they hurt too much to be let near anyone. And being able to interupt a cast can be very handy, depending on what's being interupted (mob heals in general, and the mana burn in mana tombs come to mind.

A lot depends on encounter design on how much any utility is valuable, though.

 

Jonny_Monroe

Well, thats the main question right there: What mechanic does blizzard use to justify a druid's lower DPS? I use druid as an example because they're usually at the center of any debate when it comes to hybrids. Is it the group utility, the ability to throw around 'emergency heals', or both? Personally, I suspect both but i'm very skeptical of blizzard's method of working out where the final numbers should fall. As far as a crit aura goes, it doesn't take a mathematician long to work out point for point how much DPS that's worth in a half-optimized raid group. The ability to emergency heal is harder to quantify for many reasons; you don't know exactly when emergency healing is needed (ideal raids would be: never), you don't know if that emergency healing is going to cut it, do you place value on the fact that the healing is untallented and therefor potentially a huge drain on the same resource pool as the DPS uses? (DPS and tanking feral uses seperate resource pools, resto/balance uses the same one). Put simply; we don't know what blizzard does/doesn't consider when working out 'hybrid' DPS potential. For all we know they might have a scoring system wherein any none-DPS function is given a set value, and any remaining 'points' after you tally up a class' none-DPS functions is sunk into DPS potential.

Rather than speculating on how raid/group balance should perform, its probably better to take a more reactionary stance and wait untill we see how they do perform, and give feedback based on that. If we find ourself stuck with 1 11/18/28 mage per raid I doubt blizzard will sit on their backsides and let it go on for an entire expansion.

I was wondering that myself, other than you needing a new rank of the armour every 5 levels due to the way ratings scale it doesn't seem any different.

OMNOMNOM.

 

Arazan

Fun news, according to the official beta wrath calculator on blizzard's website which was updated earlier today, Mind Mastery is now being heartily nerfed, giving only 3% of int to spellpower per rank.

 

Nurru

That was mentioned a few pages back actually.

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

aikiwoce

The scaling I was refering to was, damage scaling via Spirit->Dmg. This would increase the value of Spirit in and outside of pure arcane specs.

I then went with the change from crit % to crit rating so you have something meaningful to scale for new ranks of the armor. With %-based modifiers you can never have a rank 2. You can see this problem right now with Molten Armor ranks 2 and 3:

Rank 1(lvl 62) - 75 dmg done to attackers/3% crit/-5% chance to be crit
Rank 2(lvl 71) - 130 dmg done to attackers/3% crit/-5% chance to be crit
Rank 3(lvl 79) - 170 dmg done to attackers/3% crit/-5% chance to be crit

With percentages you don't really see the scaling being done from 70 to 80. At level 80 Molten Armor ranks 1, 2, and 3 are giving 71.5 more critical strike rating than they do at 70. So for any meaningful scaling between ranks you need a non-percentage based value to scale.

I will try to be more specfic in the future.

Edit: Added some stuff, and reworded some of my post to try and avoid confusion.

Update: Manly you just had your mageliness questioned by some scrub on the Beta Forum. If you need someone to play your Beta account till you stop laughing, I'm here for you.

 

Dorvan

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how making the spell give crit rating equal to 3% crit instead of simply 3% crit is "meaningful scaling". It also means that whenever you're not at a level where you just trained a rank you're actually getting less than 3% crit (or alternatively, you get more than 3% crit to start and it goes down to 3% crit by the time you're ready to train the next rank). In either case, I'm not sure what that aspect of your proposal is supposed to accomplish: it means that in between ranks the skill actually gets worse as you level.

Most of the game will be played at 80 anyway, and once you hit 80 a chunk of rating equal to 3% crit doesn't scale any more than simply stating "+3% crit" as you get better gear.