WarTotem

How would you suggest to do this for Priests or Druids? Besides, the upcoming gear changes clearly indicate that Blizzard does NOT want to create specific healer and DPS gear, both rather just make it all "caster".

 

flyingtoastr

Hm, would this put Arcane specs back on the dependency for going down another tree for a filler (Frostbolt or Fireball) or do the buff talents for AB (Incineration, Spell Impact, Arcane Empowerment) balance the loss of MB procs for sticking with an actual arcane rotation?

 

Lhivera

I was under the impression that that Missile Barrage "change" was just another update error on the official calculator?

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

Dorrinal

Lhivera, about Brain Freeze: I don't think it's intended to provide dynamic casting so much as it's meant to synergize with the 15 points in fire you need to attain Improved Scorch. Instant fireballs don't impress me much either, until they are powered by Ignite.

 

Lhivera

And yet, it does. A 71-point Frost Build deals more damage with higher efficiency with Brain Freeze than without it. Certainly it can also be used in a hybrid build, but that doesn't mean it's not also good for a pure build.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

Valestra

Missle Barrage is still procced by Arcane Blast on live servers.

 

Tucker

Apologize for the continuance of a derail, but the talk about "dynamic play" inspired me. True "dynamic play" won't come from talents with procs etc. to make you change your button mashing sequence. It will come from the encounters. Any boss fight follows a script. If a group works together long enough, they will learn the script, play their role, and finish the encounter. What's missing from PvE encounters is the "random" element, or more specifically, the "reactive" element. A boss works the same way every time. Tainted cores are still on a timer, even if we don't know which side they come on each time. But what if the boss changed his strategy based on what the players are doing?

Blizz has taken a step in this direction with the Hex Lord and Magister's Terrace encounters that have different adds with different abilities to deal with each time. But the question is: Can they add a small amount of artificial intelligence to an encounter to make it "dynamic"?

PvP is appealing to players because of the "fly by the seat of your pants" aspect. Can they think and react faster than the opponent? To me, having a more flexible script to boss encounters would revolutionize the game more than any new talent or proc.

Just my two cents... flame on.

 

Lhivera

It comes from both.

Complex Encounter + Simple DPS process is less dynamic than Complex Encounter + Complex DPS process. Indeed, more so than the increase in DPS complexity alone, because a more complex DPS process is necessarily going to be more sensitive to interruptions and delays that are going to be caused more often by a more complex encounter.

This isn't an either/or issue. Encounters should be made more complex and interesting. But so should class and spec playstyles.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

Skallewag

Notes about mages vs healers regarding spirit:

Im sure there will still be lots of changes to regen mechanics and possibly to mage armors. But just for the reckord, the way things are right now mages can get 60% of their regen while casting if they spec for it and use mage armor. Yes this requires some dedication to the arcane tree and yes this means not using molten armor, but you cant escape the fact that no other caster can get this much mp5 out of their spirit.

 

Tucker

True, I wasn't saying that I didn't want shiny new toys to play with, just that I believe the encounter will have more to do with the fun/interesting value, long term, than the shiny toys.

 

Psyker_x

"True "dynamic play" won't come from talents with procs etc. to make you change your button mashing sequence. It will come from the encounters. Any boss fight follows a script. If a group works together long enough, they will learn the script, play their role, and finish the encounter. What's missing from PvE encounters is the "random" element, or more specifically, the "reactive" element. A boss works the same way every time. Tainted cores are still on a timer, even if we don't know which side they come on each time. But what if the boss changed his strategy based on what the players are doing?"



While this is true to a degree, one thing to be avoided are overly complicated scripts. Making fight's more dynamic is certainly a good thing all the way around, but I can't find too many people who weren't pretty ok with the changes to old Mag's. There comes a point where overly complicated scripting and encounters get a tad on the "chore" side of things. Was mag's hard to begin with? No, not really, provided you had a group/raid that worked well together, but at what point do complicated encounters move from being "dynamic" to being "overlyomfgourclickerjustdiedwipeit"? Something to ponder.

 

Fireflash38

I always found the "5-man arena" in Magister's to be a ton of fun. And what was even funnier was seeing all the people bitching about it when it really isn't that hard. Surprise, you have to do more than spam your highest DPS/HPM spell to kill stuff.

Now if they really wanted to make that a challenge, they would have given them a bit more CC, and DR on any CC that you use against them.

I do PvP on both a rogue and a mage, and they both have fairly similar roles in arenas. Lock someone down then blow someone up. That requires more than just spamming fireballx8 scorchx1 ad infinitum, and is much more interesting than dodging fire patches. I would like to see more variety required in raiding than just movement gimmicks (they are the real gimmicks, not what most people call "gimmick" fights).

 

toth

I've always wanted elementalist builds to be viable but I'm not sure I'm thrilled with Blizzard's direction. Rather than creating potential synergy between fire and frost, they just created a spell that benefits from both sets of talents.

I always imagined stuff like the following:

* When a fire damage spell deals damage to a frozen enemy, that enemy gains the Water Vapor debuff.

* When a frost damage spell deals damage to an enemy affected by Ignite, the Ignite effect is removed and 110% of the remaining Ignite damage is dealt instantly. Additionally, the enemy gains the water vapor debuff.

* Water Vapor: the enemy is surrounded by water vapor. Any frost damage dealt to the target will apply the Frosty debuff. Lasts 4 seconds.

* Frosty: the enemy is covered in frost and is considered frozen. Any fire damage dealt to the target removes this effect. Lasts 4 seconds.

You could imagine doing stuff like popping Combustion + Icy Veins for some quick fireball crits to build up Ignite damage. Then toss a frostbolt to deal 110% of that Ignite damage as well as making the target vulnerable to being frozen. Toss another frostbolt to apply Frosty. Throw out a fireball + ice lance to take advantage of the frozen bonus. Shatter makes it very likely that fireball will crit and apply Ignite. And so the whole process can start over again.

(exact numbers or random chances can be added as well)

That's the type of synergy I had always hoped for and the type dynamic play that could be a lot of fun.

It would probably be really chaotic to think about or react to in a raid environment unless they were self buffs. Especially if it extended to more than mage spells (immolate, flametongue, frost shock, etc.).

But still. I can always dream

 

Qbert

This was already conceded and countered by the fact that the ability to spend 50% of an encounter out of the 5 second rule for 100% regen far outweighs the extra 30% regen during casting. Please read the posts you're responding to.

 

Fireflash38

Made me think of one of the first dynamic encounters in TBC: Netherspite. When my guild first started raiding kara, we got our first on netherspite several men down because they got stuck outside the door. Encounters should not just require a minimum of people, but a minimum of skill/communication. If you are on the ball, you can coordinate the beams for netherspite with just 3 people. Fights such as brutallus though are comparatively boring.

Variety is the spice of life, if you are stuck doing the same damn thing all the time it is not interesting or fun. Which is why people loved WG, it let you choose what you wanted to do.

 

Trunks1022

There was a Blue post on the Warlock Boards which stated:


[source] Post #13

Does that also include Mage's Water Elemental too? Or is this just Warlock specific?

 

aikiwoce

Everyone is waiting to find out, but no one has posed the question on the beta boards.

Edit: Except in the Questions from Lhiv thread. Probably should be split out from that thread and ask for more information on the future of Mr Squishy.

 

dedmonwakeen

I've been following this thread since about page 50. While I've found it both entertaining and educational, I really wish the OP could be kept up to date with the latest discoveries from Beta.

Lhivera and Roywyn have a couple posts in the middle of this runaway freight train that they keep up to date, but they don't quite have the detail I'm looking for.

Perhaps I missed an important post somewhere along the way? Is there a Zaldinar-esque post somewhere that maintains current understanding (or theory) of WotLK Mage mechanics?

I'm about finished adding BC-level Mage mechanics to my sim and I'm about to start working on the WotLK changes......

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Gediablo

Regarding Arcane Potency and Presence of Mind. As cana already said back on page 140:
People still consider Arcane Potency + PoM as being bugged? The more I think of it the more I doubt it is. A few reasons why:
- I haven't seen any blue posts claiming it is bugged or unintented yet (post link if it has please)
- It keeps surviving new builds on the testrealm
- It required both changed mechanics, and updated tooltip and a change to the pre-requirement to Arcane potency to make this 'bug' - that doesn't just happen by accident.
- It actually opens up for a build spamming AM+ABr - opposed to an AB spamming build.

I guess the main reason for people saying it is bugged is because 30% free permanent crit seems overpowered on paper, but if you take into account that you cannot use spells like polymorph, arcane blast, fireball, pyroblast, frostfirebolt or frostbolt without loosing this buff it makes it very restricted from a usual mage point of view - although with Slow, ABr and fireblast you could kite most stuff you usually poly. I haven't really done the math on singletarget damage of a AM+ABr spec yet, but it is pretty fun to run around with ashtongue and TLC trinkets and 60% crit in a very odd spec on the testrealm at least (I'm deep arcane, but no Missile Barrage or Incineration). It is very different in playstyle from my usual TBC specs, which after 3½ years pleases me a lot.

AE spamming or Blizzard cast with PoM+Potency seems like an extremely powerful AoE, and would definately makes such a spec the king of all AoE, but it is the main thing concerning me about it being intended or not - it just makes Living Bomb look even more pathetic.

On a sidnote: I specced 3/3 Prismatic Cloak just to try my instant Invisibility. I tried it several times, but I don't get the invisibility graphics, I don't loose aggro nor do I get out of combat.

 

Lhivera

I'd love it if somebody would do that, especially if said somebody were to use my questions from that thread related to the Water Elemental in addition to any he may have himself.

The Water Elemental occupies this weird grey area between "Pet" and "Battle Chicken" that makes it entirely less than obvious whether changes they say they're making to "pets" will apply to our talent. An explicit Q&A would be extremely helpful to clear some things up.


I, um...kinda slacked off on that.

Zaldinar is maintaining a thread on the official forums for mechanics Q&A and testing:
WoW Forums -> Zaldinar's WotLK checklist

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

Lgs

Since the changes are coming at a abnormally fast rate, there is no reason to have one major post. The shorter, temporary posts are just providing baselines until their successors. If anything, mechanics have not changed that much. The talents are not unlike anything we could have easily imagined, nor did we really get anything too different in FFB.

Gnomes are creatures of destruction.

 

◊ Vontre

Yeah, I found a deep glitch in my Brain Freeze calculation, so nevermind that.

www.magegraf.com

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

"We agree with Communism." - Greg Street 2009

 

dedmonwakeen

Ah, perfect. Nothing more "Zalidnar-esque" than Zaldinar himself.....

PS: Lhivera, I'm totally bummed you zapped your Man-out-of-Time WotLK mechanics page. I felt it had some really useful info.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

JonIrenicus

Why there is no uproar over this I do not know. I am not philosophically opposed to getting boosts from other trees, but as it stands, to be self sufficient in raiding as a mage each mage will need 18 in fire. Not the case for the alternative, one only needs 11 points in arcane to get a dps boost, however problematic, and 11 points in frost to get the IV boost, and then comes the lecherous fire, I suppose this was done to make fire a more enticing general raid spec. But it leaves the entire ordeal bitter and bile ridden.

I think fire should get better dps buffs higher in the tree if needed, keep imp scorch as is, but allow arcane and frost trees to buff their own damage with a non stackable buff with imp scorch, qualm solved. But this is coming from a mage who played most of his raiding career as full frost, I was spoiled by it, my fault for not being a min max slave until I needed to be.

 

chase

Then there is the whole deal now where we have to go 8 points in frost to get +hit to our fire spells. So until +hit makes it on gear in good quanty x/y/8+, unless you plan to cast nothing but arcane spells or are willing to see the mana/dps sink known as miss.