[Mage] WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 158

Grub · 08/07/08, 8:33 PM

Also, Fiery Payback now adds a 2.5 second cooldown to Pyro, so you can't spam it. I'm pretty sure this is new.

Nurru · 08/07/08, 8:34 PM

Originally Posted by Grub

Also, Fiery Payback now adds a 2.5 second cooldown to Pyro, so you can't spam it. I'm pretty sure this is new.

You're a week or two behind.

Kel S'jet · 08/07/08, 8:35 PM

Originally Posted by threep*

errr, you can cast living bomb and AE/BW/DB like hell at the same time... don't compare the two spells directly.

*sigh*

/insert facepalm here

Have you done Hyjal trash? Do it, then tell me how useful you think AE BW and DB are.

aikiwoce · 08/07/08, 8:35 PM

Originally Posted by manly

You PVP guys realise that ice lance can now proc impact ?

I was thinking how overpowered an Impact, Fingers of Frost, Shatter enhanced Ice Lance is myself.

Edit: Oh, and I saved an old copy of the talent calculator's data file, and opened it up and did a compare between the two. All the changes have been found.

Gediablo · 08/07/08, 8:37 PM

Some pretty decent changes.

Seems like the Missile Barrage tooltip still include ABar and not ABla in these new versions.

And Arcane Potency + PoM survived another version of the calculator too.

threep* · 08/07/08, 8:39 PM

Originally Posted by Kel S'jet

*sigh*
/insert facepalm here
Have you done Hyjal trash? Do it, then tell me how useful you think AE BW and DB are.

Done it, enough times, dude.. but we're not talking about old content here. Comparing this 2 spells directly and calling it an epic fail = *facepalm*

aikiwoce · 08/07/08, 8:40 PM

Another Blue post this time Mages vs Locks:

Originally Posted by Koraa

Warlocks got to crazy land with the % modifiers to their damage output (specifically with Demonic Sacrafice), that's been toned down. Warlocks should never be able to out DPS a Mage with no pet out. Alike a Hunter, their pet should factor into their total damage output. Warlocks that sacrifice pretty much all utility talents should come very close to Mage DPS, but those who invest in group/raid utility should be lower.

Vand1 · 08/07/08, 8:41 PM

Improved Water Elemental granting 3% total mana every 5 seconds equates, by today's standards, to over 300 MP5 while active. That is as much as a very well-geared shadow priest (pre-nerf), but it affects the entire raid. Granted, a shadow priest's return is contant, whereas a water elemental has plenty of downtime. But as we saw several pages back, a single frost mage can have at least 50% uptime (assuming it can survive), meaning two would provide constant high-end shadow priest returns to the entire raid, with plenty of overlap where people are getting over 600 MP5.

aikiwoce · 08/07/08, 8:42 PM

Originally Posted by Vand1

Improved Water Elemental granting 3% total mana every 5 seconds equates, by today's standards, to over 300 MP5 while active. That is as much as a very well-geared shadow priest, but if affects the entire raid. Granted, a shadow priest's return is contant, whereas a water elemental has plenty of downtime. But as we saw several pages back, a single frost mage can have at least 50% uptime (assuming it can survive), meaning two would provide constant high-end shadow priest returns to the entire raid, with plenty of overlap where people are getting over 600 MP5.

We need some answers on avoidance, master's %hit -> pet, and health scaling without an extra 30% from Imp WE.

This would be good to know for the WE also:

Originally Posted by Koraa

just wondering but could the imp at least benefit from our destructive reach talent such that we are casting at the same range, fights like azgalor where him being in 30yd range would be very bad while we are sitting at a comfortable 36yds.

Done : ]

Copernicus · 08/07/08, 8:50 PM

Originally Posted by Lhivera

Living Bomb is now a targeted spell: "The target becomes a living bomb, taking 612 Fire damage over 12 sec. After 12 sec or when the spell is dispelled, the target explodes dealing 336 to 337 Fire damage to all enemies within 10 yards and knocking all targets up in the air. Only one target may be affected by this spell at a time."

Living Bomb changed
Arcane Shielding increased
Torment of the Weak
Incanter's Absorption moved
Missile Barrage switched w/Netherwind Presence
Spell Power moved to Tier 10
Burnout increased to 50%
Frozen Core still friggin' unchanged
Imp. Water Elemental now restores mana rather than health (1/2/3% per 5 secs)

Definite progress.

* Frost Warding now gives a 15/30% chance of negating the warded damage spell and restoring mana equal to the damage caused (and works for Fire Ward and Frost Ward).
* Molten Shields now has the 15/30% chance to reflect warded spells, and works with Fire/Frost Ward.
* Frost Channeling's lowered mana cost affects all spells. (-threat is still frost only)
* Impact now works with all spells and is 3 points for a 10% chance.
* Empowered Frostbolt down to 2 points for 10% increased spell power, 4% increased critical hits
* The Fiery Payback change is officially in (-20% all damage, adds a cooldown to Pyroblast).

Nastre · 08/07/08, 8:51 PM

Two things.

1) With the change to Living Bomb making it castable on enemy targets, does the spell itself remain of the gcd?

and

2) Fire is looking healthier now. Not done, but healthier. Enough for me to at least smile.

PsyBomb · 08/07/08, 8:55 PM

I'm wondering if this is old news and I'm blind, but it seems that Empowered Arcane Missiles, Empowered Fireball, and Empowered Frostbolt all got massively buffed.

Empowered Arcane Missiles: Renamed to Arcane Empowerment, no longer increases mana cost of Arcane Missiles, now increases Arcane missiles by 15/30/45% of your spellpower and Arcane Blast by 3/6/9% of your spellpower

Empowered Fireball: Reduced to 3 ranks, now increases the damage of your Fireball spell by an amount equal to 5/10/15% of your spellpower.

Empowered Frostbolt: Reduced to 2 ranks (!), Now increases the damage of your Frostbolt spell by an amount equal to 5/10% of your spellpower and increases the critical strike chance by 2/4%

EDIT: Really tightened up the points on a frost build. I managed to squeeze 3 more points from Frost into Arcane for the same net result in Frost. Comes up with more efficiency overall, and I like it. Oh, and wasn't Frozen Core 2 ranks, before? It's up to 3 now, with the same per-rank benefit.

Muphrid · 08/07/08, 9:04 PM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

I think you're mistaken on the bolded part.
You also have to exclude that the first cast of the chain must not be part of another chain.
Cast1-Cast2-Cast3-Cast4-Cast5.
Cast5 is a Hot Streak crit if either Cast2 was a Hot Streak crit and Cast2/3 were both normal crits, or if Cast2/3/4 are normal crit and Cast1 was a ... normal hit I think, because otherwise Cast4 would have been a Hot Streak already.

I made a little chart, with m/n/o/p being the chance that the last 0/1/2/3 casts were crits.
You then draw little arrows to see how your chances are to go from which state to which.
0/1/2 have a (1-c) chance to go to 0 and a "c" chance to go to 1/2/3.
From 3, you always go to 1 if you spam fireball, or to two if you FB/FiBl on Hot Streak.

Take those relations and add m+n+o+p=100% and you can solve it.

In the case of Fireball spam, it's p = c^3/(1+c+c^3).
That means 1-p of your casts are normal fireballs and p of your casts are guaranteed crits.
You gain p*(1-c) crit chance.

If you do Fireball/FireBlast combos, p = c^3/(1+c^3).
That means 1-p of your casts are Fireballs and p of your casts are (FB+FiBl) crits. Damage depends on your Ignite buggyness.
You cannot really express that as added crit chance. You can approximate FireBlast as half a Fireball and add roughly 1.5*p*(1-c) crit chance.
For exactness, you should however compute the damage and castime of your combos.

It's quite possible that I made some mistake there, feel free to point when it contradicts sims.

For the FB-Sc-FiBl constant crit, you're essentially locked into a 6 second cycle, with Scorch scaling badly.
Compared to normal play at high gear, you gain ~12% DPS if you have no haste on gear - only WoA+Ret.

If you have 12% unavoidable haste on gear (like in Sunwell), you don't really have a gain from this.

Okay, I've worked it with your method and arrived at the same formulas. It was quite refreshing, actually, as to help frame the problem I revisited some graph theory and eigenvectors. I think something that can help with the Fireball/Fire Blast is, perhaps, to interpret the 3rd crit as leading to a 4th crit that leads back to a 2 on the counter.

Lhivera · 08/07/08, 9:09 PM

Originally Posted by Braal

How much aoe dps is lost from other raid members while the living bomb targets are "knocked up in the air"?

That depends on how high up they're knocked, doesn't it? As far as I know, altitude won't help vs. Blizzard or Flamestrike, and they need to go at least 10 yards up to escape Arcane Explosion. Might be totally fine. Might not.

Of course, either way, your enemies are now with child, and that's some sweet revenge even if you lose.

Edit: I take it back -- with the mana cost it has, it's only useful for AOE, and only if the knock-up effect doesn't toss targets out of AE range.

Originally Posted by Nastre

Two things.

1) With the change to Living Bomb making it castable on enemy targets, does the spell itself remain of the gcd?

That would surprise the hell out of me. If it does remain off the GCD, however, then it's a great PvE DPS increase (I reckon around 9% at 3000 damage/50% crit if it has a standard 80% 12-sec coefficient, but it may well not).

Muphrid · 08/07/08, 9:11 PM

Originally Posted by Lhivera

That depends on how high up they're knocked, doesn't it? As far as I know, altitude won't help vs. Blizzard or Flamestrike, and they need to go at least 10 yards up to escape Arcane Explosion. Might be totally fine. Might not.

Of course, either way, your enemies are now with child, and that's some sweet revenge even if you lose.

Ah, but to pay you back for their death, they're now spawning an add.

Lhivera · 08/07/08, 9:14 PM

Originally Posted by Muphrid

Ah, but to pay you back for their death, they're now spawning an add.

A tiny, helpless add, which you can raise as your own and eventually turn loose upon them as an engine of vengeance.

Gotta think long term here.

Edit: Balled up the Arcane Shielding upgrade. Reduces mana lost per point of damage by 35%, not 30%, resulting in a final cost of 1.3 mana per point of damage. Assuming a 55.9% coefficient and 3000 damage, max-rank Mana Shield:

W/o talent: Absorbs 3007 damage, costs 6249 mana
W/talent: Absorbs 3007 damage, costs 4144 mana (~34% reduction)

solbergb · 08/07/08, 9:16 PM

Originally Posted by Braal

Burnout becoming 50% makes the talent itself acceptable, but i don't see how it makes single target fire dps competitive.

We don't know the spell damage coefficient on living bomb. Without that we can't judge what it adds to single target fire DPS.

On single target boss stuff, the AOE is irrelevant (tossing stuff around or not) but it is a decent dot that can be added to a boss in addition to fireball spam, for not even the cost of a global cooldown (unless that changed too)

There might be some situational stuff where you want to toss the non-focused trash around 12 seconds in. I think though if you want to move enemies, the future blast wave is how fire will do it, as you can time that a lot better.

I actually liked the idea of it better the old way, becasue I wanted my fire mage to be the living bomb. This version will not be nearly so much fun in PVP/leveling. When I saw it was targeted at first I thought "oh, so cast it on the tank OR yourself, as needed" but instead it ia seed-of-corruption-like thing. Won't know how I feel about it till the numbers come back.

aikiwoce · 08/07/08, 9:22 PM

I'm a little concerned about the "knock up" effect not being an effective secondary CC-effect for Living Bomb. This doesn't stop the person who got "knocked up" or those nearby from using instant spells/attacks. I would much prefer a "knock down" that way melee/ranged/casters are effected equally.

arch · 08/07/08, 9:22 PM

Am I the only one doubting that they'll allow players to knock trash in raid instances around with blastwave, living bomb and whatnot? I'm pretty sure they will make most of them immune to prevent potential exploiting.

solbergb · 08/07/08, 9:26 PM

Originally Posted by manly

You PVP guys realise that ice lance can now proc impact ?

Yeah. And so can arcane explosion.

VERY excited about that change.

Impact is pretty much why I tend to mix a lot of fire into my PVP build. This change opens up a lot of tactical possiblities even with the deepish fire PVP build i play now, leaving aside the possibility of a more traditional
deep frost build dipping into fire for this talent and getting chances for both frostbite and impact to proc.

I am likely still going to start by experimenting with a deep fire AOE oriented PVP build, at least for soloing and battlegrounds. For arena play, something more elemental-oriented has definite possibilities. I might take a
frostfire raiding spec and tone down the talents oriented around 3 second nukes and spend those points on
frostbite and impact and see where that takes me.

Nastre · 08/07/08, 9:28 PM

With the Burnout change is the better single target dps spec for Elementalist now, assuming there is another frost mage in the raid to provide winter's chill for the 0/50/21 spec.

0/30/41 (44? for raid utility with the mana on WE)

or

0/50/21

At first glance, both seem pretty strong...

solbergb · 08/07/08, 9:29 PM

Originally Posted by arch

Am I the only one doubting that they'll allow players to knock trash in raid instances around with blastwave, living bomb and whatnot? I'm pretty sure they will make most of them immune to prevent potential exploiting.

Most trash is affected by most crowd control. There are spot immunities, some based on type, some for no good reason. Knockback is a crowd control technique monsters use on PC's, it looks like we're getting a chance to get in on some of that fun. Knocking up isn't so risky, but knocking back is a trick that will have to be used very carefully to avoid getting adds or even evade bugs. If I was blizzard I'd be lookng to have encounters that reward careful use of these talents, and punish sloppy use. Those would almost by definition be trash mob encounters, although they might be "boss+linked adds/summons" and work on the linked adds/summons.

Most bosses will likely be immune, just as most can't be rooted with frost nova. But the trash? Just look at how much of sunwell trash, tough as it is, can be controlled with polymorph.

aikiwoce · 08/07/08, 9:31 PM

Well apparently they are paying some major attention to the mage beta forum:

Originally Posted by Koraa

We'll be addressing this by allowing it to work on your next 2 or so spells, instead of just one.

This is in regards to Fingers of Frost and Shatter combos.

Update - Another post that affects Mages, Debuff Slots:

Originally Posted by Koraa

We would like to increase the number of debuff slots, yes, and we most likely will. Unfortunately, this is very complicated to do tech wise. It greatly increases the amount of bandwidth for the server, for example, and also for the client (you).

When designing new talents, we try very hard to not add more debuff slots, though with the addition of a brand new class it's sort of unavoidable. In a nutshell, yes we realize the debuff slot stuff is an issue now and will be in the future and we're working on it.

solbergb · 08/07/08, 9:32 PM

Originally Posted by aikiwoce

I'm a little concerned about the "knock up" effect not being an effective secondary CC-effect for Living Bomb. This doesn't stop the person who got "knocked up" or those nearby from using instant spells/attacks. I would much prefer a "knock down" that way melee/ranged/casters are effected equally.

I'm curious to see if they land on their feet, or if they have a prone phase. Also if they take falling damage.

Lhivera · 08/07/08, 9:38 PM

Originally Posted by aikiwoce

Well apparently they are paying some major attention to the mage beta forum:

We'll be addressing this by allowing it to work on your next 2 or so spells, instead of just one.

This is in regards to Fingers of Frost and Shatter combos.

As it happens, even a two-charge solution doesn't allow for a Frostbolt/Ice Lance combo -- you do more damage with a second Frostbolt! The only reason we use an Ice Lance in a Shatter Combo is because we can't use a second Frostbolt before the freeze expires, and a Shatter Ice Lance is more damage than a non-Shatter Frostbolt. So, this change may simply result in us getting two Shatter Frostbolts off, and thus continue Frostbolt spam.

However! If the damage component of Deep Freeze applies to targets even if they are immune to the stun component, then that would be a worthwhile use of the second charge, and the two-charge solution would be more than acceptable.