Vand1

Stupid question, but if it simply works on the next two spells, wouldn't you be better off just continuing FrB or FFB spam, rather than tossing in an ice lance?

 

radikal

0/50/21 mage shaping up as the sweetest leech spec of them all

radikalnoise.com :: Dicks, Strats, Drama, eFame, and More Dicks
FH - LF 1 Baller PvE Mage
All noncrit DoTs (not Ignite) generate Combustion charges (Bug?)

 

Lhivera

Not a stupid question (I referred to this in the last post on the previous page.)

If Shatter is up for all three, then DPCT ranking is Deep Freeze > Frostbolt > Ice Lance. So against a Boss target, you'd finish your Frostbolt to use the first charge, then follow up with a Deep Freeze to use the second charge. The critical question is whether the damage component on Deep Freeze applies even if the target is immune to stuns. If it does, then a 2-charge FoF is perfect. If it doesn't, then it's still Frostbolt spam.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

[DRF]Solmyr

Torment of the Weak, if it works off of any snare type effect seems to be very trash/pvp oriented spell for frost. Are there any effects that "slow" a boss type mob?

Now that I look at it again: "All damage done to slowed targets is increased by 3%" Could this be a debuff on a target? The wording should be "All damage you deal to a slowed target is increased by..." Every other talent seems to indicate "you" or "your"...

 

Decree

You wont need winters chill if you can get 100% crit using ffbolt,scorch,fireblast with hotstreak.

 

Talbain

We seem to be getting more and more abilities that remind me of Hemorrhage. Not really too fond of that. Would be nice if there was a better solution to the Shatter issue in Frost, but with Frostfire Bolt sitting there, it seemingly kills debate about "frozen target" debuffs. Maybe if the debuff only applied to the Mage in question, rather than being a stackable debuff with multiple Mages. A limitation to be sure, but it's the same thing that happened with Ignites.

Resident Cynic
My Blog - Genesis
http://genesis.lakuuna.org

 

aikiwoce

On that note, Arcane is shaping up at a hefty 81 possible points, so why the extra seemingly useless talent? I suspect some reshuffling/adjustment of talent points still coming.

Oh, and Slow does work on most bosses.

Edit: Sorry I should have said most, because iirc some are immune.

 

Talbain

Arcane definitely needs more work. The nerfs hurt its DPS bad, particularly the co-efficient nerf really weakening burst potential of Barrage (though that's from a PvP perspective).

Edit: They made Slow work on bosses? Seriously? That's potentially huge... could imagine kiting Drek'thar... would make me laugh.

Resident Cynic
My Blog - Genesis
http://genesis.lakuuna.org

 

Dekkar

It may tempt Frost mages to go down the Arcane tree if that is the case, at least for PvP. It could have interesting applications for PvE AoEing of trash for a heavy Frost/light Arcane build as well, as having Imp. Blizzard would basically make your Blizzard do 3% more damage, along with the rest of the raid doing 3% more damage to the mobs you're AoEing.

 

[DRF]Solmyr

I can't imagine Blizzard wanting us to use slow (15second debuff) to have a boss take 3% more damage... now, if they decreased the mana cost of slow, and allowed it to proc Missile Barrage...

 

Copernicus

I don't really expect that to last. A mana battery aspect would be fine for a mage talent spec, but not one based off of keeping a pet alive 50% of the time. It results in the mage being either overpowered or underpowered, depending entirely on pet survivability.

 

Lhivera

Slow has always worked on bosses, it just didn't, you know, do anything, because you can't snare a boss, and virtually no bosses deal ranged (hunter-style) damage, or have casting time. But the debuff applies to them and uses up a slot, no trouble.

If this effect were supposed to apply to all damage dealt to the target, it would pretty much have to be "Improved Slow" and be much deeper in the tree. Given its positioning -- namely, well before you can actually get Slow -- I have to assume that it's personal damage only, and works against any target that's been reduced below 100% movement speed.

I think Fire DPS is fixed, at least if it has access to a Winter's Chill debuff. I put it around 105% of Deep Frost's DPS (though that will change a bit once we see exactly how they tweak FoF). Gap should increase a bit with higher-level gear than I used in my calcs, but the new Imp. WE utility is strong enough that I think that's OK.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

aikiwoce

I could point a retooling of Slow into a Focus Magic/Mind type debuff. With a longer duration in PvE, and shorter one in PvP.

In fact if you re-read it after thinking about this it makes much more sense.

Torment of the Weak - All damage done to slowed targets is increased by 1/2/3%.

Update: Also the talent is in the right spot if Slow was moved up to the 11-point talent for arcane.

 

Lhivera

I really think that's OK. In a perfect fight, a deep Frost Mage should be able to achieve closer to 60% uptime. In a really terrible fight, it might be entirely unusable, but that'll be less common than the perfect situation. Somewhere in the 40-50% range is likely to be the average, so they can balance around that.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

Talbain

The moving of Spell Power that deep into the Arcane tree seems incomprehensible to me. It certainly doesn't seem like the "solution" to justify Burnout. In fact it pretty much does the exact opposite. The Arcane Shielding change also seems incomprehensible. It really needs to add something to Mana Shield's effect, not simply lower how fast you're losing mana. Improved Blink is still a fairly poor investment for two points, but for its PvP usage, it's pretty much all Arcane has.

Resident Cynic
My Blog - Genesis
http://genesis.lakuuna.org

 

Dekkar

I wonder, has anyone else noticed that they're really beefing up the crit chance of certain spells with just 15 points in Arcane?

With Spell Impact, Incineration, and World in Flames:

Arcane Explosion, Fire Blast, and Arcane Blast all have an additional 12% chance to crit. I wonder if taking a build with Spell Impact and Incineration would be a great way to inflate the crit chance of Scorch for the purposes of Hot Streak procs?

 

JonIrenicus

I think alot of people will have to rethink what they consider "sustainable" pretty soon. Arcane blast spam seems more and more viable with each new build without going oom.

 

aikiwoce

Likely an error with the calculator, like Missile Barrage. They were never changed with the latest build to +dmg % and Arcane Blast. We'll just have to wait and see until a new beta build is pushed.

 

Talbain

Anyone else notice the change to Molten Shields? That's rather unfortunate for purposes of PvP impact procs.

Resident Cynic
My Blog - Genesis
http://genesis.lakuuna.org

 

Roywyn

1) Arcane Focus and Arcane Blast are multiplicative.
255/446/637/828 mana without, 247/432/617/802 mana with the talent.

2) Deep Freeze has a 1.5/3.5 coefficient. Not affected by Ice Shards right now, to be bugfixed.

3) Focus Magic works like +X spell damage most likely.
Meleeing and wanding currently eats charges. A bug most likely.
DoTs don't eat charges, hopefully intended.
Arcane Missiles eat charges, Blizzard does not.

4) Burnout mana drain is definately not affected by non-fire spells.
(Test: Ice Lance costs 150, refunds 45 on crit. Would cost another 7.5 mana on crits. While spamming parity to 5 didn't didn't change.)

5) Wanding speed is affected by ranged haste most likely.
Haste rating works on beta, Icy Veins doesn't.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Zeldyrr

I'm going to have to disagree here. I think you are still stuck in the mindset that big balls of fire must naturally do more damage than big shards of ice.

I would like to see them "balance" the tree on dps + a specialty.

Frost: DPS + WE/mana regen is fine
Fire: DPS + superior AOE
Arcane: DPS + DPS on the move or Burst

In all three cases DPS should be equal and the specialty changes.

Of course, I am not worried. Things keep changing every 2 days, so what you calc at 105% now, can be drastically different by Monday.

 

Lhivera

It seems pretty sensible to me. Getting Spell Power now means you're not getting Fire Power, Molten Fury, Combustion, Pyromaniac, or Empowered Fireball. And in fact you'll have to leave 2 points out of Playing With Fire. There's no way you're going to build an Arcane/Fire hybrid now that can out-damage a deep Fire build using Fire spells, which is as it should be.


If you're talking about the 50% not going to 100% when you spend a second point, that pretty much has to be a calculator error.


I think the mana regen, reduced threat, higher efficiency and higher mobility for Frost do justify a bit less DPS (and as you probably know, I'm a lifelong Frost Mage who has always been completely adamant that Frost must be competitive for raiding). 5% seems a reasonable gap for that kind of advantage, especially considering the gap will close a bit depending on how the FoF change plays out.

(Pause for some napkin math.)

If Deep Freeze's damage can be applied to Boss targets on FoF procs, then I put the DPS difference at only about 1%, actually. That's assuming the DF cooldown is up on half your FoF procs, and you use a second Frostbolt on the other half.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

Ulthwithian

With the change to Impact... when this build is testable, can someone test to see if each pulse of AM can proc Impact?

 

Vand1

If the elemental-as-mana-battery change survives to live, that may indirectly increase its survivability. As long as it is not being one-shot by AoE affects, healers may very well throw it some love if they're getting a bunch of mana back from it.

 

Lhivera

A couple Warlock pet survivability talents got nerfed heavily just before they added Avoidance; at this point I would be at least moderately surprised if the Water Elemental didn't get a similar anti-boss-aoe-instagib ability.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.