DeepFire/Shatter mage (00/40/21 for exemple, at lvl70) with deep frost mage wont be able to do good with Hot Streak?
If I take Lhivera's frostbolt example, but with fireball:
(assuming WG is applied at 02.0 by a frost mage):
00.0: Fireball 1 cast
02.0: WG proc, considered as frozen until 07.0
03.0: Fireball 1 launched (crit), Fireball 2 cast
06.0: Fireball 2 launched (crit), Fireblast (crit) => Hot Streak Proc
07.0: WG end
With an addon announcing when WG is active, cast a Fireblast would be very easy.
The only way, with Fireball, to not do 3 crits in a row is when WG procs less than 1 sec after Fireball cast:
00.0: Fireball 1 cast
00.1~00.9: WG procs, considered as Frozen until 05.1~05.9
03.0: Fireball 1 launched (crit), Fireball 2 cast
05.1~05.9: WG end
06.0: Fireball 2 launched (no crit).
Of course, lots of parameters can change all of this (moving, casting scorch, haste, etc etc).
Currently I'm running a long simulator to try to get an indication of Combustion + Hot Streak and how it will work out for your crit rate, results still pending from that one (been 37 hours in the run so far)
which is smooth enough I think to estimate the gain from hotstreak (which is very low...). But im curious to see what you'll get from 40+ hours of simulation.
I'm having a difficult time seeing any raid situation with mages stacked 4 deep. It's getting awfully crowded in 25 mans, what with a new class (deathknights) and newly viable specs (moonkins.)
High end raiding guilds are already stacking shamans or warlocks,and will as long as there are classes which dominate others. With current gear and spell ranks and new talent trees (which will happen a short time before Wotlk) 4 stacked frost mage could reach 2400 dps each (without any bloodlust / destruction potion ect) when a fire mage would only do 1950.
WG is good no question about it, but it's not quite as good as that. Shammies will continue to be stacked, locks are still good for 3 spots, we will still want 2-3 paladins for blessings, we need to make room for at least one moonkin, 3-4 spots for priests (holy and shadow), etc., etc.
4 mages will require two full groups with support added. Only way that's happening is if the melee group is eliminated.
4 mages will require two full groups with support added. Only way that's happening is if the melee group is eliminated.
sadly, thats not an unreasonable suggestion. If it means pushing raid DPS by another 20% I can see some guilds trying it, at least for encounters where melee DPS is under more preasure.
I'm going to back out of theorycraftin the new spells and tallents now untill the beta begins and blizz gives us something more official on numbers and mechanics.
One angle that has not been looked at for Frostfire Bolt: What if Blizzard designs more raid bosses to have higher resist in one or two schools, ala Supremes? Having a slightly less powerful nuke that bypasses 200 or 300 resists on a boss is extremely nice.
Not trying to put sunshine on a pile of shit, I just think it's a bad idea for people to whine and bitch about new spells / abilities when Blizzard could easily change a few mechanics for WoW 3.0 that can dramatically change existing TC.
It would be better on a fight like Mother, where the mob has specific vulnerabilities to certain spell schools that changes as the fight progresses.
Due to the idiocy of multiple mage WG stacking, I wouldn't be at all surprised if WG became a player-specific debuf -with respect to the frozen aspect-. That would mean that everyone gets his own WG, which treats -his- spells as Frozen, but any WG on the mob will treat the rest of the raid as having the 4% hit debuff, which I am also quite adamant refers to physical rather than spells.
Due to the idiocy of multiple mage WG stacking, I wouldn't be at all surprised if WG became a player-specific debuf -with respect to the frozen aspect-. That would mean that everyone gets his own WG, which treats -his- spells as Frozen, but any WG on the mob will treat the rest of the raid as having the 4% hit debuff, which I am also quite adamant refers to physical rather than spells.
I agree that it looks like a physical-only debuff; typically they use the wording "attacks and spells" when it applies to spells as well. I suppose there's a chance they've munged the wording, as they have so many times in the past, which would be nice for boosting WE hit a bit, but I'm not going to get my hopes up on that.
Now the problem with a self-only WG "Frozen" debuff, of course, is that we're already bumping up against the debuff limit, and this would mean Frost Mages are now using up to 3 debuff slots, plus one per additional Frost mage. They'd pretty much have to increase the debuff limit again, wouldn't they? After all, other classes are also getting spells that will be eating away at the debuff slots -- Death Knights in particular will probably be adding a whole new batch.
are you trying to be dense? AE spam is quite a bit different from single-target. I'm gonna be patronizing here but your response annoyed me ("no it wouldn't").
I wasn't trying to be annoying. It was late and I have some fairly strong feelings about the WotLK Mage talents, especially the ones in the Fire tree. Please accept my apologies.
That said, I'm fairly certain you and I have vastly different definitions of what constitutes a "good" talent. Hot Streak is effectively Clearcasting for crits (Actually, for the casual player hovering in the 30-35% crit range, it's procs much less often). We all know what the behavior of Clearcasting is - much as you'd like to bail on a cast to maximize the mana benefit, most of the time you don't. I suspect that the actual play of Hot Streak will be largely the same.
As to whether or not Hot Streak will affect all of the targets of an AoE, only time will tell. I'd like to think that Blizzard would include that, given how soft the rest of the talents are, but I'm not holding out much hope.
My definition of a good talent is rather simple. If one talent point gives me an absolute increase of ~1% more dps, then its a good talent. The downsides of it, like burnout or PWF, I simply totally ignore them for the simple reason that they aren't going to change my playstyle.
---- edit:
I know this might sound silly, but if PWF was 'uncapped' and you could throw as many point as you want in said talent, I'd probably put ~20 points into it.
Last edited by manly : 05/26/08 at 12:16 PM.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
My definition of a good talent is rather simple. If one talent point gives me an absolute increase of ~1% more dps, then its a good talent. The downsides of it, like burnout or PWF, I simply totally ignore them for the simple reason that they aren't going to change my playstyle.
Fair enough, but at the same time don't you find yourself suffering from "class envy" when you look at similar talents for other classes that don't have a punishment built in?
Originally Posted by manly
---- edit:
I know this might sound silly, but if PWF was 'uncapped' and you could throw as many point as you want in said talent, I'd probably put ~20 points into it.
Without a doubt. I'd be right there next to you. But there's a difference between getting hit by something I assumed from the beginning to be a theme of the class (fragility) and something that makes no sense to me (mana burning myself for big crits ala Burnout)
Shatter Shield utterly defeats pets-only training, and I was the one who pointed out Penetration on Arena gear.
Going back on pvp topic. I think shatter shield giving us spelldmg won't change anything beside gaining some spelldmg for short duration. If you are trained you can't make a good use of more spelldmg anyway, and as we all know how terribly instants scale and they don't do any harm if well played.
We need more utility spells, that will let us counter class abilities instead of going a straight way into forcing us to try to kite that is not providing much utility nowadays as other classes got huge anti-kite abilities. Intervene, Shadowstep, talents providing snare resists, enchants like surefooted or meta gem. There is more of course if you pair it with defense dispeller we are the class that suffer(ed) the most from other classes getting new utility spells.
I don't want mages to be imba class, but we require pvp fixes. Another one should be dealing with LoS.
Going back on pvp topic. I think shatter shield giving us spelldmg won't change anything beside gaining some spelldmg for short duration. If you are trained you can't make a good use of more spelldmg anyway, and as we all know how terribly instants scale and they don't do any harm if well played. .
That's actually not what I meant. Physical-only absorption with a 30% coefficient on a base 2,000 point shield is probably going to absorb at least 2,500 points of Physical damage; if you're under a train consisting of Pets only, and maybe a few DoTs, your Shatter Shield will stay up a long time against the Pets, effectively making you Immune to Pushback from Pets for that duration.
If they want to shut down a Mage's DPS, they'll need to actually focus the Mage in WotLK; Shatter Shield means that Pets alone can't do it.
Sorry but i might have missed that and can't find answer. Does shatter shield provide spellpushback immunity for the duration? If so only pet part is out in this scenario, full time training and LoS is still there.
Sorry but i might have missed that and can't find answer. Does shatter shield provide spellpushback immunity for the duration? If so only pet part is out in this scenario, full time training and LoS is still there.
Sorry but i might have missed that and can't find answer. Does shatter shield provide spellpushback immunity for the duration? If so only pet part is out in this scenario, full time training and LoS is still there.
Its assumed, since thats true of every other shield in the game regardless of whether the tooltip states it or not.
As for the damage component of Incanter's absorbtion... 2500 shatter shield gets broken, the target is frozen and you have 375 +spell damage behind your ice lances.
It all depends on if IA can stack (either constantly, or per 'shield'). I'd assume more powerful procs from IA overwrite previous procs, making IA rather useless if you're just getting the odd 300hit from a hunter pet.
On resistance:
Mage armour, magic abdominals, gift of the wild and prayer of shadow protection will give you a total of 304 shadow resisance. Whilst still vulnerable to dispell, this is certainly going to make mage vs lock more balanced. Hell, i'd say it might make it completly 1-sided to the mage. And rofl at AoE damage in raid encounters. Free mana, really.
Mage armour, magic abdominals, gift of the wild and prayer of shadow protection will give you a total of 304 shadow resisance. Whilst still vulnerable to dispell, this is certainly going to make mage vs lock more balanced. Hell, i'd say it might make it completly 1-sided to the mage. And rofl at AoE damage in raid encounters. Free mana, really.
Mage Armor, MotW, and Shadow Protection don't stack up like that; you only get the largest of the Resistance Buffs currently on you, added to your gear and talents. In this case, you'd get 80 (from Level 80 Shadow Protection), plus 80 (from 5/5 Absorption), for a total of 160.
The advantage to stack Resistance buffs is not a higher total but a mitigation of the effects of their removal. Removing Shadow Protection only drops your SR by 26, in that case (Level 80 MotW being 54 Resistances)
130 for level 80 shadow protection. And the stacking is indeed still an advantage.
I was under the impresion that self-only buffs always stacked, and group buffs didn't. Hence shadow protection + mage armour stacking but not GotW + shadow protection, for 250 resistance. Either way, the odds of a fel puppy (0 spell penetration in any gear) getting those buffs off you with any significant rate of success is tiny. Meanwhile, shatter shield eats its meager melee damage while you're free to nuke the lock (who isn't able to do much... the odd fear may get through but even that is at 50% duration). People argue that penetration is quite high on PvP gear, but it is going to have to be extremely high to get around the kind of resistances a mage will be able to stack. I may invest in the new +resistance cloak enchant (since cloaks offer very little in the way of DPS or mana enchants, but resistance = mana so this seems the best all-round choice for me).
Another big bump to mage PvP survivability is that Ice Barrier received a lot of scaling love for the new versions:
70: 1075
75: 2800
80: 3300
Even without taking into account most of the new talents which are probably going to change a lot, it's still possible to make some pretty dirty talent builds. I like 0/28/43 which gets Blazing Speed and Water Elemental. That build has a great amount of survivability with the new damage shields and blazing speed gives it a lot of extra mobility while getting beat on. It's hard to say what WG will end up looking like, but this build could pick it up if it's worthwhile.
An arcane/fire build with both AP and Combustion seems like a more fun 3 minute mage. Mostly just fun for the Combustion > AP > Fireball > PoM Pyroblast > Fireblast > Blastwave combo that would probably wreck just about anything.
Full frost will be good, as always, even if Deep Freeze is a little lackluster at this point.
Mage Armor, MotW, and Shadow Protection don't stack up like that; you only get the largest of the Resistance Buffs currently on you, added to your gear and talents. In this case, you'd get 80 (from Level 80 Shadow Protection), plus 80 (from 5/5 Absorption), for a total of 160.
The advantage to stack Resistance buffs is not a higher total but a mitigation of the effects of their removal. Removing Shadow Protection only drops your SR by 26, in that case (Level 80 MotW being 54 Resistances)
I'm fairly certain the mage armor is independent from Shadow Protection. I know that MotW gets overwritten, but I'm not positive on mage armor considering I always put it up for Mother and it gives me enough additional resist so that I can wear one less piece of shadow resist gear.
That'd make the total 200, nothing to laugh at for sure.
Edit: Just saw someone above post level 80 Shadow Prot is 130. That'd make 250 total, even better.
Edit: Just saw someone above post level 80 Shadow Prot is 130. That'd make 250 total, even better.
Looking over jacemathem2/Spells and Talents - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting ,it seems ALL defensive abilities are getting +50% scalling. Look at ice barrier, resistance buffs, PW:F and Devine shield. Notice also that offensive abilities seem to be scaling as normal by comparison.
Considering that mana shield, shatter shield and devine shield are going to stack to over 5.5k before tallents and spell damage, I'm seriously interested in finding out the mechanics behind Incanter's Absorbtion.
More fun things to note from the above link: final rank DS is +80 spirit, hurricane is buffed (in terms of defensive debuffing) and JoW/BoW have scalled WAY higher. Arcane Int still seems pretty frail though, having not received the same love as some of these abilities.
I'm fairly certain the mage armor is independent from Shadow Protection. I know that MotW gets overwritten, but I'm not positive on mage armor considering I always put it up for Mother and it gives me enough additional resist so that I can wear one less piece of shadow resist gear.
That'd make the total 200, nothing to laugh at for sure.
Edit: Just saw someone above post level 80 Shadow Prot is 130. That'd make 250 total, even better.
Mage armor definitely stacks with all other buffs. Shadow Protection and Mark of the Wild don't stack but Mage Armor definitely adds on top of that.
As for Hot Streak, I never said it was a good talent. I said that it has potential for AE but that currently seems very lackluster for single-target. You then disagreed with my saying it was good for AE, with an argument that made no sense in context for AEing anything. As for the talent itself, until we know more about the mechanics of it, the jury will definitely be out on whether it is worth the points of not.
Mage Tier 7 (at least what someone thinks they datamined from the alpha client). You can google Tier 7 and pull up datamined pictures of most of the sets. At least we get a set that doesn't look like a building in WoLK, and that is definitely a buff.
Looking @ all the talent tree's Ive seen so far they all seem to make sense, or have a sense of logic behind them. Generally happy with the direction of Frost & Fire but the Arcane Tree really looks odd. Why have a talented Invis so deep in the one tree where youll never need it if you spec that way? The only way I can really see it logically being there would be if Incanters Absorption works off of spells you resist as opposed to damage that you absorb. If that was the case Arcane would offer situational huge increase to spelldamage for 10 seconds (then you could pop AP, trinket etc...)
Overall happy with everything, but Arcane still seems to be the odd gimicky tree that it always has been.
05/26/08, 10:15 AM
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