Arazan

The problem I see with that is that the crit modifier should almost always favor FFB. I know a long time ago upthread either you or Lhiv was talking about FFB possible outclassing frostbolt and fireball, and I fear that the empowered talents aren't nearly enough to make up for the amazing crit modifier that FFB has, even assuming that the double-dipping stuff gets removed.

Sadly, I think FFB really will just outclass fireball and frostbolt. Brain Freeze is far more valuable in an elementalist build than a frost/arc build, and burnout seems like it's almost designed to be used in a 0/50/21 FFB build, and that the reluctance to make it more powerful than Spell Power is simply because a 0/50/21 FFB build would be absolutely insane with an amazing 3.5++ crit modifier.

 

Qbert

I'm not well educated on DK talents/abilities yet, but I believe there's a +10% frost damage debuff/multiplier they provide which would apply to FFB, but that is delving into raid scene debuff, etc. which I don't think you intended to account for.

 

Talbain

And that's pretty terrifying when you think about what Fire or Arcane could offer in comparison (for PvP at least). I sort of feel that Impact should only affect Fire and Arcane, or what I previously mentioned should happen. Nerf Ice Shards to 50% (bringing it in line with all the other crit talents), buffing pet to make up for that loss (presumably making the pet more tough as well).

Resident Cynic
My Blog - Genesis
http://genesis.lakuuna.org

 

Lhivera

Already discussed upthread. Frozen Rune Weapon is what you're thinking of, and it was generally considered by most people to be a bad talent that would be rarely used (I was holding out for its use long after most people, actually). However, the talent has been removed. It may reappear as a runeforging weapon enchant, but there's no guarantee that it will, or even if it does, that it will be a preferred enchant.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

◊ manly

I'm assuming the 10% frost damage, and elemental oath (which is said to apply on the entire base damage + crit_bonus_dmg) amongst other things.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Lhivera

I really think we need to write off the 10% Frost damage at this point (believe me, as a deep Frost caster, I wish that weren't the case, but I'm pretty sure it is).

Elemental Oath will do the following:

Fireball
Crit bonus modified by Elemental Oath: 1.5 * 1.06 - 1 = 0.59 (this is like the CSD)
Total instant crit damage modified by Burnout: 0.59 + 0.5 * 0.59 + 1 = 1.885
Total crit damage modified by Ignite: 1.885 * 1.4 = 2.639 = 263.9%
Crit multiplier: 1 + 0.5 * 1.639 = 1.8195
Base dmg: (888 + 1132) / 2 = 1010
Gear dmg: Gear dmg: round(1.15 * 3000) = 3450
Avg dmg: ((1010 + 3450) * 1.8195 = 8114.97

Frostfire Bolt
Crit bonus modified by Elemental Oath: 1.5 * 1.06 - 1 = 0.59 (this is like the CSD)
Total instant crit damage modified by Burnout + Spell Power: 0.59 + 0.59 * 0.5 + 0.59 + 1 = 2.475
Total crit damage modified by Ignite: 2.475 * 1.4 = 3.465 = 346.5%
Crit multiplier: 1 + 0.5 * 2.465 = 2.2325
Damage multiplier: 1.06
Base dmg: (722 + 838) / 2 = 780
Gear dmg: round(3 / 3.5 * 0.95 * 3000) = 2443
Avg dmg: (780 + 2443) * 2.2325 * 1.06 = 7627.07

So that gets it closer...Fireball's only up by 6.4% now instead of 8.5% (this is assuming 50% crit rate is realistic, of course). Still a pretty good gap to make up, though. It really depends on that DK debuff. If it reappears in a form that's really attractive to DK's, then FFB takes over from Fireball, but I'm not at all confident that's going to happen.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

Alvira

I think it has its pvp uses. Missile barrage proc brings down the channel time to just 2.5 seconds, plus will haste rating apply on top of that? So if a dedicated pvp arcane spec gets improved arcane missiles, I think it would still be usable in a missile barrage proc. Damage alone won't stop you from channeling it. They would have to use a dedicated interrupt or silence to stop it. Plus you can also take burning determination to help. So, with burning determination in play. They can only interrupt/silence you once, and if missile barrage procs within 10 seconds after that, there is nothing they can do to stop the AM channel.

 

Alvira

From Lhivera's numbers, it looks close enough that I don't believe frostfire bolt will be overpowered. With crit rating requiring even more to make up 1% in wotlk, I believe its going to take a very long time before gear inflation will bring mage's crit rate anywhere near 50%. Even with the gear inflation levels in TBC, its not like mages currently average 50% crit rates easily in raid.

 

Lhivera

True, but Fire Mages currently don't have Winter's Chill, and the Boomkin buff is likely to be a lot less rare than it is now, so you can tack 10-15% extra crit onto whatever the Fire Mage is currently running with -- and of course when you're getting up into the 40-45% range, Hot Streak starts to shine. I don't think 50% crit is terribly unrealistic, though we may be closer to 40% until Tier 9. Time will tell. Much past 50%, I start to question whether that's likely.

Still, yes, the point is that unless I've missed something really big (which I may have, it's late and I'm tired), or Frozen Rune Weapon makes a crazy comeback, FFB seems to be pretty well balanced. I need to fiddle with some numbers for a more evenly-distributed elementalist spec and a frost-heavy spec and see how it turns out, but I doubt it'll be terribly different.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

Talbain

Uh... yes there is? Stun, LoS, Fear, Poly, Blind, etc. Not only that, but you're talking about ideal situations which rarely happen in PvP environments.

I'm not denying that it's a good talent, but it's patently a PvE talent unless it drops down to a 1.5 second cast again.

Personally, I still feel Arcane and Fire need some improvements to their PvP talents (I feel PvE wise, they seem to be shaping up pretty well, at least as is my impression). The Blink suggestions made for Arcane about it removing movement impairing effects is good, and Fire's Blazing speed should probably have an effect where no new slowing effects can be applied for some amount of time. Though I also think Imp. Blink should do something about its cooldown. Either change would help Blink. Blazing Speed just needs the flat change to make it worth it. Deep Fire could also use something... changing Fiery Payback into something useful would be nice (similarly, Incanter's Absorption needs to go in favor of something useful--same with Torment the Weak, which is really not a very good talent, when you consider what else you can get for three points in other trees at that tier). I certainly can't see it ever getting used in PvP (unless there's some way to intentionally bring your health down to that level and then instantly back up).

Edit: A possible solution to the Blink problem might just be to make it have no cooldown (or a smaller cooldown), but make the mana cost more prohibitive, with Improved Blink as the "solution" to that problem for Arcane.

Some of the names need to be changed too:
Fingers of Frost needs to be changed back to Winter's Grasp, Brain Freeze should be called Antipode, and Torment the Weak should probably be changed to something more mage-y (I dunno what, I just know that since it's bound to get changed, it should receive a better name).

Overall, if Frost is the survival tree, then Fire would be the big damage tree, while Arcane would be something like a "pot-shot" tree.

Resident Cynic
My Blog - Genesis
http://genesis.lakuuna.org

 

Valestra

LoS doesn't help against Arcane Missles. The other options are not readily available to all classes and no one will look out for a random procc to counter all the time.

So yes, Missle Barrage will have it's place in PvP. With enough haste you can smoke a lot of HP in a matter of 3-5 seconds.

 

Mithr

With the new changes of Molten shields and frost warding, i would be useful to see how these two talents interact together.

If you have 2 points in molten shields and two points in frost warding, does it means that you have 30% chance to reflect and 30% chance to negate the damage so that you have only 40% chance to take full damage?
Which one of those talents are calculated at first when some damage land on the ward?

The combination of both talents could be very powerfull against fire and frost aoe in pve HL (60% avoidance at max depending on how those talents are calculated, with a gimmicky (or not so gimmicky) reflect or mana regen).


Edit :

it would be usefull to know how the talents are calculated :

First way :


You have 2 points in both talents, the game make a rand(1-100) and if it is 1-30, the spell is reflect, if it is 31-60 the spell is negate and if it is 61-100 you take full damage.

This result in 60% fire or frost avoidance when having the good ward.


Second way :

There is a talent which is calculated before the other (assuming this is molten shield, the order isn't very important by the way) :

Step one : The spell arrive, the game make a rand (for the proc of molten shied) and if it is 1-30 , the spell is reflect otherwise go to step two.

Srep two : The game make a rand (for the proc of frost warding) and if it is 1-30, the spell is negate otherwise you take the fill damage.

The total avoidance should be in this case :

0,3 + 0,7*0,3 = 51%



Third way :


There isn't any order in the calculation of the talents. The game makes two independant rand (one for each talent).

Total avoidance = avoidance due to molten shields + avoidance due to frost warding + avoidance due to both= 0.3+0.3+0.3*0.3=0.69%

For this third case, i'm not sure that my maths are good. My studies are now far away so please check the maths.

Edit 2 : I'm quitte sure now that my maths are false for the third way. Please correct me cause i don't remember how to do.

 

Talbain

PvP is an upwardly mobile game. The more mobile you are, the more advantages you have. So while it's not a bad ability, I think anyone who's using it is asking to get gibbed by all the other classes (and yeah, it's pretty much all the other classes in WotLK) who aren't standing in place. Going that deep into Arcane means your mobility is really your only defense; I don't foresee standing and casting as a good solution unless our new abilities (non-talent abilities) are particularly defensive in nature, or Mana Shield gets a major overhaul to make it worthwhile to stand in place for that long. You're right, only a certain number of classes have the abilities I'm talking about, but it's about half as standard abilities and goes to pretty much everyone when you start talking about talents (Warrior Charge/Intercept, tons of Rogue abilities, Mage Poly, Hunter Intimidation, Shaman Thunderstorm, Paladin Hammer of Justice, Priest Fear, Warlock Fear... I hope you get the point by now).

Resident Cynic
My Blog - Genesis
http://genesis.lakuuna.org

 

Prom

The way things are now Frost will still be the predominant PvP spec. It's survivability, combined with the potential burst dmg it can deal is unrivaled.

 

Talbain

Unfortunately true, though I'd say it's more a result of the Impact change than anything else. As I suggested earlier, nerfing Ice Shards and buffing the pet would probably even Frost out with the rest of the potential PvP specs.

Resident Cynic
My Blog - Genesis
http://genesis.lakuuna.org

 

Mithr

Mistake, i would want to edit my previous post.

 

frosty

I would think AM on a 2.2-2.3sec channeling time (you still have NW Presence and some haste on gear, might get even lower with IV or Bloodlust), that might also have 5 chances to proc Impact has a very good place in pvp. Or did you never ever fire off a single Frostbolt in your pvp career?

 

Prom

The change to Winter's Chill certainly makes Fire specs look better, assuming you have a frost mage in your raid :P


And regarding Impact; its a nice change but nothing dramatic. It's affected by DR after all.

 

Talbain

It's difficult to get off a Frostbolt now, and Wrath isn't making it easier. As such, I don't think that five points for a potential ability that roots you for 2 seconds (minimum--though you can't get Icy Veins and Impact with Missile Barrage and Arcane Barrage) is good enough. Yes, if AM procs Impact it will be nice, the problem is, you're still standing there praying for the RNG to be favorable. Personally I'd rather cast two instants in that interval and continue moving around.
It's pretty dramatic in that it kills Fire or Arcane from being viably competitive with Frost in PvP. Since there's no global DR, it's basically just another way for a Frost Mage to lock you down; it changes nothing for Fire obviously, and while it helps Arcane, it helps Frost far more, considering Ice Lance.

Resident Cynic
My Blog - Genesis
http://genesis.lakuuna.org

 

Roywyn

Post should reflects the patch that made Burnout 50% and made Living Bomb useful.
It does not take into account that Fingers of Frost was changed to 4s - but that barely makes any difference for 51+ Frost since they can use Deep Frost.
It is a slight nerf to 0/30/37+4 variants that have to use an Ice Lance or skip their Shatter Combo.

Arcane Blast spam is completely with this change as it costs 3000 mana and more per cast. Hopefully an oversight.
Torment of the Weak is not considered until we know how it works.



First, some general stuff.

1) Crit still sucks.
With a high 3k spell power, 21% base crit (before molten armour), 10% gear haste and a 0/50/21 spec with CSD and EO, we get 362.25% crit damage.

At that point, 1 crit = 0.93 dmg, 1 haste = 1.06 dmg, 1 hit = 1.49 dmg.

Looking further, it requires 4k spell power until +crit gems are as good as +dmg gems for the highest crit damage spell, even at a relatively low crit rate.
The higher your crit rate is, the more spell power you need to break even.


2) 33 Arcane specs are dead. It's "50 Arcane or bust" now.
Kind of obvious, I know. To get spell power, you need 47 in Arcane, leaving you at most 24 for the other trees.
Since Netherwind Presence is better than any anything from 22-24 in Fire/Frost, you're at 50 Arcane.

Even if Arcane Barrage cannot proc Missile Barrage, it is still a key stone for Arcane rotations.
You can however completely forego it for a build like 50/3/18 that focuses solely on Arcane Blast spam.


3) Pet specs and fight length
Pet specs are strong for fights up to 2 minutes and for fights 6-8 minute fights.
The reason is just cooldown length. You start the fight with 2 Elementals. Then you recast one at ~3:15 and one at ~5:40. (Depends on points in it.)
When that ~5:40 runs out, Cold Snap comes back up and you can resummon it.

With 3/3 Imp. WE, you spend 0:00-2:00 and 5:48-7:48 with 2 minutes pet uptime, thus making it strong for 2 and 8 minute fights, but weaker for 4:30-5:30 fights.



Now for the spec comparisons at 3k spell power, 21% base crit, 10% haste, hit cap, 700 spi, 1k int.
Assuming CSD+Elemental Oath, the old WoA/ToW totems, no Moonkin Aura, Ret aura, no Frozen Runeweapon, 13% CoE, Misery.
I'm using a 6 minute fight thoughout all calculations.

I also assume Scorch/Winter's Chill are up.
Scorch is a must. If nobody in the raid has it, someone respecs. Simple as that.
Winter's Chill is a must have if you have at least 4 Fire/Frost/Arcane users.
A warlock might count as 2 casters due to the absurd benefit of Empowered Imp.

Having 1 Mage, 1 Moonkin and 1 Destruction Warlock (Empowered Imp) seems like a standard setup that makes Winter's Chill break even and offer a lot of raid mana from Improved Water Elemental.
Winter's Chillforces the use of WC.

I haven't included Focus Magic yet, mostly because it's bugged. Non-magic attacks eating charges being the major issue.
If that was fixed, then it would be a 5% (low gear) to 3.5% (high gear) increase to raid spell damage, while reducing your own DPS by about 15%.
So, about 10-15% more DPS at the cost of 11 talent points if you're not arcane and a bucketload of mana.

Every expects some adjustments there however.


4) Fire specs

Using Living Bomb as a Fire DoT is a very valuable addition to Fire DPS.
Some of my calculationg might be a little bit wonky, here is the odd part:

Before LB, Hot Streak should be used with Fireball+FireBlast combos to get a better chance on continuing your Hot Streak.
With LB however, this is may be slight downgrade. It depends on gear and crit.
The higher your spell power and crit is, the more likely is it that Fireball+FireBlast combost do not provide more damage.

Ignite bugging is a problem. If Ignite always bugs and you lose the FB and the FiBl Ignite equally often, you get about the same damage from cycling as from spamming.
I'm not considering FB*3-FiBl rotations that use FB+FiBl on Hot Streak, because you usually won't have your FireBlast cooldown up when you'd need it.

Those calculations also disreagard the Fireball DoT. Ticks for about 45 with 0/51/20.
It adds up to 20 DPS when spamming Fireball, depending on haste.
In cycles however, you can gain only ~12 more DPS in a rotation like FB*4/FiBl*2/LB.


5157 - Without Winter's Chill: New 50% Burnout 0/51/20 Fireball spam, with FB/FiBL on Hot Streak
5803 - Without Winter's Chill: Spam Fireball*5/LivingBomb, use Fireball+FireBlast on Hot Streak; including FB DoT; assuming no Ignite bugs

(5249) - Old 25% Burnout 0/50/21 Fireball spam, even through Hot Streak
(5426) - Old 25% Burnout 0/50/21 Fireball spam, with FB/FiBL on Hot Streak; assuming no Ignite bugs

5595 - New 50% Burnout 0/51/20 Fireball spam, even through Hot Streak
5798 - New 50% Burnout 0/51/20 Fireball spam, with FB/FiBL on Hot Streak
5620 / 5709 - In case you get exactly one of the 2 Ignites to bug out 100% / 50% of the time.

6042 - New 50% Burnout Wait-Fireball-Scorch-FireBlast rotation under 100% crit, assuming no Ignite bugs
5466 / 5754 - In case you get exactly one of the 3 Ignites to bug out 100% / 50% of the time.

6191 - Spam Fireball*5/LivingBomb, even through on Hot Streak
6257 - Spam Fireball*4/FireBlast*2/LivingBomb, even through on Hot Streak; assuming no Ignite bugs
6365 - Spam Fireball*5/LivingBomb, use Fireball+FireBlast on Hot Streak; assuming no Ignite bugs

6385 - Spam Fireball*5/LivingBomb, use Fireball+FireBlast on Hot Streak; including FB DoT; assuming no Ignite bugs

(5874) - Old 33/38/0 Fireball spam
(5982) - Old 33/38/0 rotation of Fireball*3+FireBlast, assuming Ignite never bugs.


5) Frost Specs

Assuming all this without Frozen Runeweapon. If it comes back as a Runeforge Enchant, it'll likely be the best choice for raid DPS.
The DPS value of frost would then be increased by 10%, but have to be reduced by whatever the Death Knight loses from not taking a better Runeforge Enchant.
On the bright side, Runeforge Enchants do not require talents and can easily be changed before entering a dungeon. It's also possible to have two weapons with different Runeforge Enchants.
IF it comes back at all, that is.

Deep Freeze has an extremely high base damage. It's more DPS than Frostbolt when used on a frozen target until you break 5k spell power.

Due to its cast time (1.5s/instant), that high DPCT doesn't make it too attractive for Fingers-of-Frost procs.
With FoF is changed to 2 casts, you should use Deep Freeze on your second cast when you have less than 3k spell power.

"Deep Frost with FoF + 0.4*Frostbolt with 10% chance on FoF" = "Frostbolt with FoF" breaks even at around 3ek spell damage.

Also, I don't assume it counts as freezing unfreezable targets. If it does (need FoF to work to see it) in the future, it'll be the spell of choice to cast it on FoF procs to make the target considered frozen.

The listed values currently don't account for the 1.4% cast time loss to cast Water Elemental.
I'll fix that later, just keep in mind that you need to drop that amount to compare to non-pet specs.


935 - Waterbolt spam during WE uptime; assuming the WE can be hitcapped.

4847- Frostbolt with Deep Freeze and instant Fireballs in 0/18/53
4848 - Frostbolt with instant Fireballs in 0/18/53
5345 - Frostbolt with Deep Freeze and instant Fireballs in 0/18/53 and 53% pet uptime
5347 - Frostbolt with instant Fireballs in 0/18/53 and 53% pet uptime

With Frozen Runeweapon, those values are as follows:
1028 - WB; 5273 - FrB/DF/FB, 5821 - with 53% pet uptime; 5276 - FrB/FB, 5825 - with 53% pet uptime


6) Frostfire Specs

For 0/30/37+4 type specs, Frostfire Bolt is the only useful spell in that spec.
For 0/18/53, Frostfire Bolt is worse than Frostbolt until you reach 40% crit before Winter's Chill/Shatter.
For 0/50/20+1 types, Frostfire Bolt is usually better than Fireball.

Assuming no Frozen Runeweapon and no double-dipping for standard numbers.

Those calculations also disreagard the Frostfire Bolt DoT which scales with gear. Ticks for about 300 with 0/51/20.
It doesn't get to tick usually, but it will whenever you use Scorch to debuff or FireBlast/LivingBomb/WaterElemental.
You can gain up to ~65 more DPS in a rotation like FFB*4/FiBl*2/LB.

5150 - No Winter's Chill: New 50% Burnout Frostfire Bolt spam as 0/50/21
5706 - No Winter's Chill: Spam FrostfireBolt*4/FireBlast*2/LivingBomb, even through on Hot Streak; including FFB DoT; assuming no Ignite bugs

5504 - Frostfire Bolt spam as 0/34/37

5154 - Frostfire Bolt spam as 0/30/41
5574 - Frostfire Bolt spam as 0/30/41 with 45% pet uptime

(5385) - Old 25% Burnout Frostfire Bolt spam as 0/50/21
5666 - New 50% Burnout Frostfire Bolt spam as 0/50/21

6340 - New 50% Burnout Wait-FrostfireBolt-Scorch-FireBlast rotation under 100% crit, assuming no Ignite bugs
5736 / 6038 - In case you get exactly one of the 3 Ignites to bug out 100% / 50% of the time.

6198 - Spam FrostfireBolt*5/LivingBomb, even through on Hot Streak
6272 - Spam FrostfireBolt*4/FireBlast*2/LivingBomb, even through on Hot Streak; assuming no Ignite bugs
6307 - Spam FrostfireBolt*5/LivingBomb, use FrostfireBolt+FireBlast on Hot Streak; assuming no Ignite bugs


6329 - Spam FrostfireBolt*5/LivingBomb, use FrostfireBolt+FireBlast on Hot Streak; including FFB DOT; assuming no Ignite bugs
6338 - Spam FrostfireBolt*4/FireBlast*2/LivingBomb, even through on Hot Streak; including FFB DOT; assuming no Ignite bugs


*7955 - Frostfire Bolt that double-dips from CoE/Scorch/WC (as 0/51/20, casting FFB*5/LB, FFB+FiBl on HS)



7) Arcane specs

I'll just list the DPS values of the spells first. Cycles will depend on what will proc Missile Barage.
Also note that spammed Arcane Blast has higher DPM than Arcane Barrage and Arcane Missiles.

I'm leaving out "Torment of the Weak" until we know how it works. It's not worth Slow's GCD/Mana from how it looks.
Specs are 53/18/0, i.e. taking Imp. Scorch instead of Icy Veins. Add ~3% for specs with Frost fillers.

6922- Arcane Barrage (16 DPM)
4418 - Arcane Missiles (17 DPM)
8723 - MBAM, Arcane Missiles under Missile Barrage

4378 - Arcane Blast, single cast (29 DPM)
4639 / 4666 / 4813 - Frostbolt / Fireball / Frostfire Bolt in their specialised 51/*/* specs (24/18/24 DPM).
Note that the FFB spec cannot pick IV and has to drop 2 points from Arcane Flow or Mind Mastery.


Let's do some cycles. They do not include that you lose damage from casting Scorch every 30 seconds, to make different specs/cycles equal.
Notice that the cycles are not very attractive even with WC, and they'd drop even lower without it.

// If Arcane Barrage can proc MBAM:
// 6138 - Cycle (ABar-FrB)*3-ABar-MBAM (18 DPM) with frost off-tree; haste capped
// 6008 - Cycle (ABar-FB)*3-ABar-MBAM-FiBl (16 DPM) with Imp. Scorch
// 6103 - Cycle (ABar-FFB)*3-ABar-MBAM (19 DPM) with an impossible spec; haste capped
// (6229) - PoM exploiting ABar-AM (20 DPM) for permanent +30% crit; includes Missile Barrage procs

If Arcane Barrage cannot proc MBAM:
5684 - Cycle (ABar-AB)*7-ABar-MBAM-FiBl (19 DPM); haste capped.
5821 - Cycle (ABar-FrB)*7-ABar-MBAM (19 DPM) with frost off-tree, is haste capped
5727 - Cycle (ABar-FB)*7-ABar-MBAM-FiBl (17 DPM); spec includes Imp. Scorch
5811 - Cycle (ABar-FFB)*7-ABar-MBAM (19 DPM) with an impossible spec
(5894) - PoM exploiting ABar-AM (20 DPM) for permanent +30% crit


If we can make Arcane Blast spam work with sufficient gear:
(Note that an (ABar-AB*2) spammed cycle under haste is not useful since ABar is worse DPS and DPM.)

With WC:
7661 - Spammed Arcane Blast as 50/21/0 (17 DPM)
7881 - Spammed Arcane Blast as 50/3/18 (18 DPM)

Without WC:
7179 - Spammed Arcane Blast as 50/21/0 (15 DPM)
7385 - Spammed Arcane Blast as 50/3/18 (17 DPM)


8) AoE comparisons before caps, in Damage per Cast time

1822 - Arcane: Arcane Explosion
2581 - Arcane: Blizzard (14 frost)

2050 - Frost: Blizzard (8 fire)
2183 - Frost: Blizzard with 15% Frostbite (8 fire)

1448 - Fire: Arcane Explosion
1648 - Fire: Flamestrike (direct damage)

2011 - Fire: Blizzard (14 frost)
2272 - Fire: Flamestrike (including DoT)

3231 - Fire: Instant Flamestrike (direct damage)
3372 - Blastwave
3469 - Dragon's Breath
3842 - Fire: Instant Flamestrike (including DoT)

7694 - Living Bomb


9) Other caster classes

Those are just rough approximations, bear in mind that different classe usually are in different states of completion/polish.

3993 - Shadow Priest with a generous use of MF/MB/SWD/VT/SWP

4886 - Elemental Shaman as 43/28/0 spec
5093 - Elemental Shaman as 52/0/19 spec

5375 - Balance Druid with two Glyphs and Starfire/Wrath with Moonfire ticking

6043 - Shadow Destruction Warlock (early approximation as 7/13/51) without CoD
6816 - Fire Destruction Warlock (early approximation as 7/13/51) without CoD


10) TL;DR Spec summary

5347 - Frostbolt with instant Fireballs in 0/18/53 and 53% pet uptime; 3/3 IWE for raidwide mana
5574 - Frostfire Bolt spam as 0/30/41 with 45% pet uptime; no mana from the WE

5706 - Without Winter's Chill: Spam FrostfireBolt*4/FireBlast*2/LivingBomb, even through on Hot Streak; including FFB DoT; assuming no Ignite bugs
5803 - Without Winter's Chill: Spam Fireball*5/LivingBomb, use Fireball+FireBlast on Hot Streak; including FB DoT; assuming no Ignite bugs

5818 - Spam Fireball as 0/51/20, with FB/FiBL on Hot Streak; including FB DoT; assuming no Ignite bugs
5821 - Cycle (ABar-FrB)*7-ABar-MBAM (19 DPM) with frost off-tree; is haste capped

6329 - Spam FrostfireBolt*5/LivingBomb, use FrostfireBolt+FireBlast on Hot Streak; including FFB DOT; assuming no Ignite bugs
6338 - Spam FrostfireBolt*4/FireBlast*2/LivingBomb, even through on Hot Streak; including FFB DOT; assuming no Ignite bugs
6385 - Spam Fireball*5/LivingBomb, use Fireball+FireBlast on Hot Streak; including FB DoT; assuming no Ignite bugs

6922- Arcane Barrage (16 DPM) as filler spell

7881 - Spammed Arcane Blast as 50/3/18 (18 DPM)
*7955 - Frostfire Bolt that double-dips from CoE/Scorch/WC (as 0/51/20, casting FFB*5/LB, FFB+FiBl on HS)


[Edit]:
Added Living Bomb and AoE comparison

Debuff clarifications, added info for setups without Winter's Chill.
Fixed a typo on the crit damage number.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Valestra

By that logic we never see Shatter Combos am I right? ...
Mana Shield gets a nice buff eating 1.4 Mana per damage point absorbed with new Arcane Shielding talent.
Charge is easily denied. Intercept is on a notcable CD. Thunderstorm is meele range only. Shall I continue?
Bah why am I even arguing with narrow minded people?

Nonsense, Arcane and fire provide more burst with less conditions to meet for execution. Seeing how most classes get additional anti cc or cc you will be even more pressed to get a shatter combo off and outside of a shatter combo Frostmage damage is pitiful.
Frost was also just better in arena and even here people managed to get to 2.4k rating with Arc/Fire and 2.2k with Deep Fire builds. In BGs and Open PvP there aren't many differences. As soon as Frost runs out of CDs they are not very dangerous anymore.

 

grayrest

The bloat is clearly intentional and I'd argue that it is a good thing because it suggests most of the talents are viable. It's certainly nowhere near as bloated as, say the Prot tree for pallys or the Resto tree for Shamans.

Your choices for the build are strange, like the failure to pick up Focus Mind (it's Detect Magic 2.0, R1 is 65 mana), taking Torment of the Weak* without Slow, not taking NWP, and 5/5 ignite over 3/5+flame throwing. I did read your comments about not being able to sit long enough to channel a MBAM and completely disagree. While an arc mage will be the best kiting class in the game, I see no changes that would completely eliminate the ability to channel an AM. I also think Slow gets dumped on more than it deserves. With the 24%->20% reduction it's the same cost as a fireblast and it's not a bad spell but a situational spell useful when you need a snare now, when it can't be dispelled, or when it's protected by other stuff. Otherwise, R1 frostbolts are the tool of choice, as always. My preference for an Arc pvp build is 51/0/15+5 with the last 5 depending on the situation. Shatter is the obvious choice, but Arcane Flows would be great for BG but not arena, Incanter's is fantastic if you're with a disc priest, and Frost Channeling is potentially interesting.

* My reading of TotW is that it's a raid debuff. Elementalist specs get Scorch and WC while Arc counters with TotW and Focus Mind, respectively. That said, I'd rather see Focus Mind disappear or become a hemo on some other spell, e.g. all non-damaging arcane spells.

Edit: And for burst, i'm going to go out on a limb and say that MB proc->AP+PoM->AM->Pyro is going to be a bigger burst than the shatter combo.

 

frosty

I think a cycle of AM-ABar under permanent PoM is worth considering. The dps and dpm numbers actually look fairly reasonable, thus the permanent PoM could indeed be intentional.

 

dedmonwakeen

EDIT: Reminder to self not to post before morning coffee.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Prom

I certainly wouldnt agree that Arcane or Fire can deal more burst dmg than Frost. Of course burst is all relative to a specific time frame. The disadvantage with Fire/Arcane is that you can be cc'ed while using your CDs(if theyre not dispelled), whereas with frost you can just reset and start fresh with cold snap.
Furthermore with Frost your opponents have to deal with 2 entities, you and your pet. That means that if they go to cc one of the two you gain an advantage. Frost dps is also very respectable outside of shatter combos in PvP and it can last for a long time.

Of course with Frost you have even more advantages, i.e. many more cc abilities. Reduced cooldown on Nova and of course the very powerful ranged nova of your pet.
As if this is not enough, with frost you have much better survivability with 2 IBs and IceBarrier absorbing significant amounts of dmg. It gives you the advantage in PvP because your opponents may opt to go for another opponent instead of the Frost mage and give you the opportunity to cc/dps.

And it's not like the LichKing talents deviate away from this trend. You get Deep Freeze and Shattered Barrier; 2 talents that contribute more into survivability,cc and burst dmg.

But I guess your probably right, after all its not like 2k+ rated teams with Mages are 90%+ specced Frost. Oh wait....