Well Torment of the Weak is in Tier 4 just like scorch.
It's not a debuff spell that can be applied to a target and therefore I'm assuming that it's simply an improvement to Slow (just like Malediction) increasing all dmg done (by the raid) to the target by 3% when Slow is up, tuning it to have a similar effect like scorch.
However this wouldn't make sense, to have Totw earlier in the talent tree than Slow, if it was to affect slow only.

Which leads me to think that Totw is simply a talent affecting the player only, targeting slowed targets and therefore having no effect on the raid dps.

Either way, the wording is confusing at the very least and a clarification would be very nice



PS: Wheres our new lvl 80 spell? Since shattered barrier was fused into the frost tree, there's still no news of our new lvl 80 spell.

While the fiasco during TBC beta certainly tainted confidence in their damage-tests, which made many false conclusions despite countless theorycrafters including myself informing them of their errors... I have to believe that they have learned from their mistakes. However, I feel like TBC is playing itself out again where Mage DPS is being handled like fragile egg while other classes are haphazardly getting substantial damage buffs (every intelligent mage cringed when they first read the burnout description and sighed when learning fury warriors will dual wield 2Hers). Not to mention that the current existing theorycraft appears like a carbon copy of TBC sheets; Mages well behind Destro Locks.

Hopefully when they get into the brunt of their damage testing they make the same realizations that we have and adjust accordingly. It won't be time to declare WotLK a repeat of TBC until we get word back from their tests saying that they're done without any significant tuning.

The higher spell damage coefficient of fireball will cause them to scale differently with gear as well, with fireball in the long run improving better as spellpower increases than frostfire.

Whether gear will boost high enough to make the coefficent win I can't say, but the trend should be that at 80, frostfire relative to fireball will degrade slowly as gear improves.

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression this would give:
(150 + 25 + 50) * 1.03 * 1.06 * 1.4 = 343.917% crit
CSD and EO as far as I know apply on the entire pre-crit value, not just the crit bonus damage.

Also, I'd like to point out that while I enjoy the numbers, I can't stop but notice a big loophole. Which spec assume winter's chill and which spec doesn't ? I realise that having a deep frost mage is better than having a 0/30/41 for the express purpose of WC stacking (1- for faster WC stacking, 2- for the mana regen). The dps between both spec is similar too.

However, since I do not see EJ raiding with more than 2 mages in the future, and even if we did, I better plan for 2, what is more relevant to me is dps comparisons including explicit information about which spec has WC counted-in. You did for scorch, but not WC.

If I were to compare the specs, I'd much rather compare 0/30/41 with WC (his own) vs 0/50/21 without WC. Since WC will help warlocks I have a hard time to give much credence to a pure fire spec. Truth is, I don't think we can discredit the impact of WC on warlocks, at the cost of personal dps.


--- edit
Also, while a more minor detail. I think you should include a 'real' arcane blast spam spec. One dedicated purely to the cause. I'm thinking here 51/20/0. 3/3 master of elements a must, for DPM concerns. Maybe with that spec we can just about permanently keep AB spam a reality ?

Actually the ability to proc impact off of arcane explosion is a pretty big deal for fire, speaking as a fire mage that uses impact. I even appreciate frost lance...if I'm chasing somebody and he's out of arcane explosion range, it's ice lance that I'm using. Proccing a stun, I can plant and hit him with something bigger, or run up and get him into AE range.

An Empowered Fireball and Frostfire Bolt both have m/r values in the 900s. There is little to no scaling difference with +damage for the spells.

It works like so:

1.5 * 1.03 * 1.06 = 1.6377 (this is CSD and EO affecting the entire pre-crit value)
1.6377 - 1 = 0.6377 (removing non-crit damage gives the new crit damage bonus, which is what Ice Shards and Burnout apply to)
0.6377 (base crit damage bonus) + 0.6377 (ice shards) + 0.5 * 0.6377 (Burnout) = 1.59425 (this is your new crit damage bonus)
1.59425 + 1 = 2.59425 (adding the base non-crit damage back into the total)
2.59425 * 1.4 (Ignite) = 3.63195 = 363.195% crit

Seems bizarre, but it does work that way. For a simpler example, here's a modern-day Frost Mage with a CSD:

1.5 * 1.03 = 1.545
1.545 - 1 = 0.545
0.545 + 0.545 = 1.09
1.09 + 1 = 2.09 = 209% crits (which is indeed what we see with Ice Shards + CSD)

What he said.

FFB presumably has a 3.0/3.5 coefficient, where improved fireball has a 1.15 coefficient.

.857 < 1.15 so presumably spell damage adds more for fireball than frostfire bolt

Hm...ok, that's too simplistic, because you multiply crits by the coefficient as well as the base damage.

If FFB crits bigger and more often by a sufficient amount than just fireball, then the coefficient
considering crit will be larger than fireball. Same goes for winters chill I guess.

The ratio of base damage to coefficient. When speaking of relative scaling between spells, it's useful to note that the relative (percentage) increase in DPS for a spell for adding +damage is...



The number 1/(m/r+d) appears in any stat equivalence formula that goes either to +damage from another stat or vice versa. Since smaller m/r values make the denominator smaller and the whole quotient larger, the percentage increase in DPS for a spell with a small m/r value is greater than it is for one with a large m/r value (that is, smaller m/r means the spell scales better from a relative standpoint).

When two spells have similar m/r values, it means that, if crit chance and other stats are held constant, increasing +damage will not alter the ratio between the two spells' damage very much. Hence, from a relative standpoint, both spells scale nearly equally with +damage.

Edit: latex mostly fixed. Apparently % signs in mboxes are bad. And I still can't get rid of the double ==.

It's important to note that when Muphrid talks about two spells scaling equally with +damage, he's referring to how much they scale as a percentage of their naked DPS, not how much they scale in terms of actual DPS itself. In other words, if Spell A goes from 100 DPS to 200 DPS, while Spell B goes from 200 DPS to 400 DPS, they both scaled by the same percentage (100%), even though the DPS gap between the two of them doubled. While I understand where Muphrid's coming from on his view of scaling, it isn't the way most people look at it (as far as most people are concerned, Spell B scales considerably better than Spell A). So it's worth clarifying, I think.

Arcane looks like it has tons of potential but I really don't like how they pigeon hole you into using non arcane nukes. My vision of arcane would be using Abar/Ablast/MBAM cycles for extremely high dpm(1stack Ablast) then using arcane blast spam during heroism and trinkets.

I have no idea why people think that blizzard should raise the debuff of arcane blast because as it stands right now it is a main nuke AND a mana dump. It is really too bad that the last calculator update and the Abar nerf really destroyed the possibility of using 1 stack Ablast as a filler; now we have to go and spend at least 15 points in other trees making arcane feel very bloated and preventing you from taking what I think are the fun talents that make arcane a cool tree(that shaman crit talent in 20 resto comes to mind here).

What they really need to do is buff Abar and Ablast synergy or at least put Ablast back on arcane barrage so that it can be used as a filler instead of the other spells. Like Lhivera said it would be awesome for arcane to have focus mind and slow switched with also having focus mind buffed exponentially. My suggestion would be for all arcane spells to recharge the spells charges by 2-3 with every hit making it almost sustainable indefinably unless you are forced to stop casting while others cast. With this even if arcane get nerfed in dps the raid would still really want an arcane specced mage. Also PLEASE don't make us cast slow every 15 seconds, it would be hell.

People with always spam Ablast as long as Ablast is the highest dps you can get with arcane. I would really like to avoid forcing people to use the same nuke the entire fight.(its boring) What I propose it a debuff of you that adds 2-4% extra mana cost every time you cast arcane blast and have that debuff removed by arcane barrage. This allows arcane blast to be a mana dump but makes it so that you wont be pigeon-holed into casting arcane blast while making arcane more interactive.

Improved arcane missiles now has very little worth to the average mage. It either has to be baseline, merged with some other spell such as Arcane empowerment or it has to effect all arcane spells.

What I really want is our level 80 spell to be is either A) telekinesis but with a better name
B) A highly interactive and high dps AoE spell that all specs can
use effectively.

In conclusion: I spec arcane to be able to cast arcane spells not to be forced to use spells from other trees and to actually think about what I cast. I really would love if arcane becomes what I think it should become.

Indeed. Lhivera has done a good job of translating my viewpoint. But, in my defense...

Emphasis mine, of course. When I saw that, I knew that was my cue.

To continue, we have m/r values;
Empowered Fireball: (1010 [on hit] + 116/4 [one tick]) / 1.15 = 903.5
Frostfire Bolt: 780 / .857 = 910

Pretty darn close, meaning that the ratio of Emp. Fireball DPS / Frostfire Bolt DPS doesn't vary much, if at all, as +damage is varied. Indeed, this is only a matter of crit.

Save for Arcane Blast and Barrage, all the mage's main raid nukes are around 900 or 950 for m/r. The difference is the crit.

And obviously with such a massive crit multiplier, Frostfire Bolt's crit scaling is going to blow everything else out of the water.

I sort-of posted about this before, but 51/9/11 is absolutely ridiculous DPS by my calculations. By alternating casts of Arcane Barrage and Frostfire Bolt, and casting Arcane Missiles whenever you get a Missile Barrage proc, you seriously get to cheat on a lot of mechanics. Remember, the three spells you're casting are:

- A 3-sec cast spell with a 86% coefficient and 330% crit damage.
- A 1.5-sec cast spell with a 86% coefficient and 200% crit damage.
- A 2.5-sec cast spell with a 188% coefficient and 200% crit damage.

Xequecal, arcane barrage now has a 62% coefficient.

Arcane crit modifier is 175% not 200%... and I believe ABar's coefficient was reduced to ~62%.

In my post I was saying that using non arcane nukes and being forced to spec many point into another tree is the problem so I have no idea what you are talking about.

I thought it had been settled as a (3 / 3.5 * 0.75) = 64.29% coefficient? (Not a huge deal, but be nice if we can know for sure.)

Couldn't help noticing this. Is this based on normal crit rate or non-crit or with pom +30% crit?

It strikes me that arcane mages can wait for missile barrage to proc, then POM, AP, arcane missiles for very mega damage (arcane powered missiles channeling twice as fast with 30% more damage and 30% more crit sounds scary!). And with arcane flows, they can do that every 2 minutes.

Wouldn't this push up arcane pve dps? Not to mention the burst arcane can do in pvp with this combo seems very very nice too!

Not that I am complaining. But seems like skilled arcane mages who can make maximum use of missile barrage procs, AP, and POM will be able to do very good damage. I love how arcane looks so interesting in wotlk now. But fire and frost looks pretty yummy too! Especially since they buffed burnout and impact for fire. And Deep Freeze looks very interesting, and brain freeze helps breaks the monotony of spamming frostbolts.

I am gradually being lured back to my mage again come Wotlk! Think that DK alt can wait.


One more small little thing. Shouldn't they relook playing with fire now? I am sure they can balance 3% more damage without having to force fire mages to take 3% more damage... especially if they really want to improve fire mage pvp. Fire mages are already the biggest glass cannons pvp wise without having to take talents that cause them to receive more damage just for the sake of a bit more dps...

Vontre pointed this out in the beta forums.
Living Bomb has 1390 damage over 12s. This is actually an extremely strong single-target dot. For comparison' sake, Corruption is 1080 dmg over 18s. Corruption has 93.6% coefficient.

This could possibly make Living Bomb an honest single-target DPS spell. It all depends on the coefficient.

You are assuming you know how far/long the knock back is, the few video i have seen it was minimal ( i do not know how it was change ) the way i look at it, it's just basically a cool interrupt affect on casters but that is about it.

In PVE I could see how useful this is, in Mount Hyjal for example, having the Necromancers interrupted by this AOE sounds pretty cool.

If Seed of Corruption is any guide, the DoT may very well get a great coefficient, while the AoE blast will no doubt have a poor one.

Doesn't seem like they intended for this to be a single target DPS spell though. Plus given that its an AOE, I would be very surprised if it has a high coefficient.