[Mage] WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 165

Roywyn · 08/08/08, 7:18 PM

Originally Posted by Dorrinal

I was under the impression that a Frostbolt-spam spec would be better off dropping the Shatter/FoF combination in favor of Precision, Reach, etc. That may change after Blizzard takes a wrench to Fingers of Frost, or if it turns out that Frostbolt is efficient enough by itself. Assuming Shatter and FoF on the other hand, I don't think dropping 1-2 points from Shatter would kill you either (worth about 1% crit per point on a boss I believe).

Not sure about your conclusion on Ice Floes. Why would it be better to drop something you can't gear for (reduced cooldown) for something you can (more mana/efficiency and spell hit)?
Here's an example 53 points:
0/18/53
Let's say Ice Barrier and/or Deep Freeze become desirable. Which talent points would you move around to get it?

Dropping Shatter/FoF is a 5% crit loss for 2-7 points. Dropping Ice Floes is a ~0.5% DPS loss for 3 points.

In your build, I'd drop the 3 points from Frost Channeling for Deep Freeze, 1/3 Precision and 5/5 Shatter.
Mana shouldn't be too bad. We'll have to see how things work in actual raids.
If I'm not drowning in +hit and need more, I'd drop 2/3 Ice Floes for 3/3 Precision.

aikiwoce · 08/08/08, 7:29 PM

I think everyone's checked out till the next build drops. Someone said, I think Lhivera, that Deep Freeze is the best use of the second charge on FoF procs, but only if it always did it's damage (through stun immunities).

Dorrinal · 08/08/08, 7:46 PM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Dropping Shatter/FoF is a 5% crit loss for 2-7 points. Dropping Ice Floes is a ~0.5% DPS loss for 3 points.

In your build, I'd drop the 3 points from Frost Channeling for Deep Freeze, 1/3 Precision and 5/5 Shatter.
Mana shouldn't be too bad. We'll have to see how things work in actual raids.
If I'm not drowning in +hit and need more, I'd drop 2/3 Ice Floes for 3/3 Precision.

Point taken. Are you doing your calculations on an available spreadsheet or program? I'd like to take a closer look at the numbers on Ice Floes myself. As far as Frost Channeling is concerned I personally take it for the threat reduction; that would make it more valuable than Precision in my eyes. Then again threat cap is another thing we'll have to see for ourselves when Lich King gets going.

Might as well wait to see what this patch brings.

manly · 08/08/08, 7:50 PM

The new build is out.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage
Basically Firestarter is now 100% chance to make an instant flamestrike after db/blastwave.
Fingers of Frost works on 2 spells.
Deep Freeze is instant cast.

aikiwoce · 08/08/08, 7:57 PM

Missile Barrage still procs off Arcane Blast, not Arcane Barrage.

Oh, and the completely overpowered Frozen Core talent hasn't been nerfed yet.</sarcasm>

An interesting Glyph for Shammys:
Glyph - Totem of Wrath 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Your Totem of Wrath also grants 1% spell haste.

Also Elemental Shaman got a talent reworked into 70% pushback resist. Hopefully frost will get some of this lovin.

itchytf · 08/08/08, 8:01 PM

Originally Posted by manly

The new build is out.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage
Basically Firestarter is now 100% chance to make an instant flamestrike after db/blastwave.
Fingers of Frost works on 2 spells.
Deep Freeze is instant cast.

Seems the change to Molten Shields remains too (by which I mean to 50% chance to effect spells and ranged attacks)

Talbain · 08/08/08, 8:01 PM

Originally Posted by manly

The new build is out.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage
Basically Firestarter is now 100% chance to make an instant flamestrike after db/blastwave.
Fingers of Frost works on 2 spells.
Deep Freeze is instant cast.

Also strange that Molten Shields is still 50% and not 100%. Torment the Weak buffed slightly, still don't really feel it's enough, but meh, pretty much the only option up at that tier that provides damage for Arcane.

Pintofbrew · 08/08/08, 8:07 PM

Fingers of Frost affecting two spells...

I wonder if it'll mean two bolts and a lance or one bolt and a lance.

At least it's relatively independent of haste effects... No more "once you hit N haste you gain m% extra dps because you can fit in another bolt under FoF"

Interestingly, it also means Gnomelancing in BG will now process at least two fat lances when FoF procs.

What Torment needs is a lock-style "barrage refreshes duration of slow" to make the whole Torment malarkey work, but that'd probably be rather horrid in PvP.

[DRF]Solmyr · 08/08/08, 8:07 PM

Well, from an Fire AoE perspective, we've been given a "pseudo" nova-shatter combo.

00.00: Cast LB on middle target of AoE pack
03.00: Run up and cast Dragon's Breath (5 second Disorient, LB shouldn't break disorient)
08.00: Cast Instant Flamestrike
09.50: Cast Blastwave
11.00: Arcane Explosion
12.00: BOOM?

I've always thought that they should have kept the old LB, and gave it the effect: "your attacks that hit 2 or more targets cause no threat while living bomb is active"

alia · 08/08/08, 8:08 PM

New talent push, Things I see:

deep freeze is now instant
fingers of frost is indeed next 2 spells
2/2 molten shields is still only 50% for ranged attacks
arcane blast is back (still?) on Missile Barrage proc list
ToW now 2/4/6%
Focus magic back at 1k mana

Talbain · 08/08/08, 8:12 PM

Weren't given any new skills in this build. Would be nice for them to release the new non-talent abilities, so they can start to be factored into everything.

Edit: Also... wow at the Deep Freeze change. 8% of base Mana makes that... hoo. I don't think that's making it to Live in its current form.

Dorrinal · 08/08/08, 8:16 PM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

Fingers of Frost affecting two spells...

I wonder if it'll mean two bolts and a lance or one bolt and a lance.

At least it's relatively independent of haste effects... No more "once you hit N haste you gain m% extra dps because you can fit in another bolt under FoF"

Interestingly, it also means Gnomelancing in BG will now process at least two fat lances when FoF procs.

Since it's a self-buff I'm sure you can't cheat a third spell out of it. And I'm betting the Gnomelancers (my new favorite word!) will follow up with an instant Deep Freeze if they notice the proc.

Given a 0/18/53 build what is the value of using a Frostfire Bolt on your second charge? Or an instant Fireball, for that matter?

Roywyn · 08/08/08, 8:16 PM

Originally Posted by aikiwoce

Missile Barrage still procs off Arcane Blast, not Arcane Barrage.

It just never got changed in the Blizzard calculator

Spell Impact is also 6% damage, not 6% crit. Just like the previous builds.

Torment of the Weak is 2% per talent (6% total) against slowed targets. Whatever slowed means.

On a totally different note:
When people were talking about good and bad talent talent, the consensus seemed to be that "1% damage per point is a good talent".
I wouldn't sign that really. I'd consider 2% talents good and 1% talents okay'ish.

A chain of 1% talents is okay if they lead to 2% talents.

But having only 1% talents usually won't get you anywhere.
A good example for that is Frost past 30 points.

Arctic Winds, Imp. Water Elemental and Brain Freeze are all roughly 1% DPS.
The only thing that keeps the tree about competitive is Water Elemental as a ~10% boost for one point and the strong points Empowered Frostbolt and Fingers of Frost.

aikiwoce · 08/08/08, 8:17 PM

Originally Posted by Talbain

Weren't given any new skills in this build. Would be nice for them to release the new non-talent abilities, so they can start to be factored into everything.

Edit: Also... wow at the Deep Freeze change. 8% of base Mana makes that... hoo. I don't think that's making it to Live in its current form.

Yeah, w/FoF you'd be creaming people from 36yds with just Ice Lance/Deep Freeze, and not really spending any mana to do it.

Originally Posted by Roywyn

On a totally different note:
When people were talking about good and bad talent talent, the consensus seemed to be that "1% damage per point is a good talent".
I wouldn't sign that really. I'd consider 2% talents good and 1% talents okay'ish.

A chain of 1% talents is okay if they lead to 2% talents.

But having only 1% talents usually won't get you anywhere.
A good example for that is Frost past 30 points.

Arctic Winds, Imp. Water Elemental and Brain Freeze are all roughly 1% DPS.
The only thing that keeps the tree about competitive is Water Elemental as a ~10% boost for one point and the strong points Empowered Frostbolt and Fingers of Frost.

Did you see the Elemental Shaman changes? They get 25% more spell power for their lightning bolt, 5 yards more range on Earthshock, and 100% more damage on the Flame Shock DoT. On one 5 point talent.

That's a good talent.

Jonny_Monroe · 08/08/08, 8:23 PM

None of you noticed yet? Arcane blast is now 25% per stack, up from 15%.

AB spam are gooooooo.

Pintofbrew · 08/08/08, 8:24 PM

Roywyn: It's not about 1% per talent point. If "slowed" means "owner of a Slow debuf" It's 4 talent points and one GCD per 15sec for 6%. That's barely a 6% buff for ~93% of the time, with 0DPS for the remaining ~7%

Unless we can gain the benefit from FFB or FrB. Which makes more sense than assuming a tier 4 talent requires a tier 9 talent to function.

aikiwoce · 08/08/08, 8:41 PM

I was snooping around when I found this:

Glyph of Blessing of Might - Your Blessing of Might also grants offensive spell power equal to 10% of the attack power it grants.

I don't know how to read the numbers in the file, but it's an interesting glyph.

Edit: It's 10%.

Lhivera · 08/08/08, 8:41 PM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

Fingers of Frost affecting two spells...

I wonder if it'll mean two bolts and a lance or one bolt and a lance.

If Deep Freeze can deal damage to Boss targets, then it's a bolt and a deep Freeze, otherwise it's two bolts.

Hopefully they've got FoF working in the new build, so someone can go get an FoF proc on Dr. Boom and see if Deep Freeze will damage him.

Originally Posted by Roywyn

When people were talking about good and bad talent talent, the consensus seemed to be that "1% damage per point is a good talent".
I wouldn't sign that really. I'd consider 2% talents good and 1% talents okay'ish.

...

Arctic Winds, Imp. Water Elemental and Brain Freeze are all roughly 1% DPS.

Just a matter of perspective, I guess. I consider 1% good, 2%+ very good to great, and 1% plus (some non-DPS effect) can range anywhere in-between. Using your examples:[/quote]

Arctic Winds is good; I don't really put a value on the avoidance.

Imp. Water Elemental is very good, because while the DPS increase is only 1% per point, it does permit sustained very high damage for up to 120 seconds, which can sometimes be valuable, and the new mana regen is quite a good side benefit.

Brain Freeze is very good, because the efficiency increase is so strong.

Roywyn · 08/08/08, 8:45 PM

Originally Posted by aikiwoce

Did you see the Elemental Shaman changes? They get 25% more spell power for their lightning bolt, 5 yards more range on Earthshock, and 100% more damage on the Flame Shock DoT. On one 5 point talent.

That's a good talent.

Empowered Imp is 20% or 2 talent points too

Everyone has some strong talents that are tree-defining, and that is perfectly fine.
The cast time reductions and crit multiplier talents are grant high increases, because they are the defining talents.

A fire mage's Frostbolt has terrible DPS because it casts so slow and doesn't crit for meaningful damage and vice-versa.
That's fine, because that's their specialisation.
Apart from those and the Empowered talents, Frost is kind of weak.
It's a huge amount of 1% talents. FoF offers ~10% crit now for 7 points (used to be 9), which is okay. A bit on the expensive side.
What keeps the spec up is the massive increase of the Water Elemental, if it can be kept alive.

Fire on the other hand doesn't have a talent like Water Elemental, but the entire middle of 20-40 points consists of mostly 2% talents which makes the tree rather good overall.

[Edit]: Yes, the efficiency increases with Imp.WE and Brain Freeze are nice. The bonus miss chance and improved snaring is okay for general play.
But in the end, the amount of damage multipliers is the important part.
Was just voicing my opinion on that, everyone to everyone their own

Pintofbrew - I wasn't actually referring to Torment of the Weak there. Just my general view on how good talents should be that I wanted to tell a while ago. Torment fitting that as well is just a side-effect.

Originally Posted by Jonny_Monroe

None of you noticed yet? Arcane blast is now 25% per stack, up from 15%.
AB spam are gooooooo.

Oh god. "Father Forgive Them For They Know Not What They Do."
That's going to put holes into mobs and our mana pools alike. Hopefully they shot down 2T5 along with that.

[Edit]: Totem of Wrath
Summons a Totem of Wrath with 5 health at the feet of the caster. The totem increases the damage done by spells and effects by 6% and increases the chance strike chance of spells and effects by by 3% for all party and raid members within 30 yards. Lasts 2 min.

aikiwoce · 08/08/08, 8:49 PM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Originally Posted by Jonny_Monroe

None of you noticed yet? Arcane blast is now 25% per stack, up from 15%.
AB spam are gooooooo.

Oh god. "Father Forgive Them For They Know Not What They Do."
That's going to put holes into mobs and our mana pools alike. Hopefully they shot down 2T5 along with that.

The 2t5 bonus still looks like 20%/20% in the file I have.

Edit2: I found it, and it does say 25%/75% dmg/mana cost increase for the new Arcane Blast.

Jonny_Monroe · 08/08/08, 8:57 PM

Blasts the target with energy, dealing 912 to 1058 Arcane damage. Each time you cast Arcane Blast, the damage is increased by 25% and mana cost is increased by 75%. Effect stacks up to 3 times and lasts 3 sec.
335 Mana, 30 yd range, 2.5 sec cast

Quoted from MMO-champion, who themselves claim that its from the latest build.

I'm not sure how I feel about this version of the spell... I want arcane to have a main nuke in its own tree, and AB as a spell brings a lot of depth and dynamic play to the table with regards to balancing mana consumption against damage output...but... it still suffers heavilly from pushback compared to FFB or deep fire specs, or frost specs to a lesser degree.

I'd say at the very least 25%/75% isn't overpowered simply because theres no way in hell thats sustainable unless you can find a nice balance and throw the buff when you need to. ABar certainly makes that easy to do. What drags it down still is the crit% and the fact that the spell really doesn't like haste beyond a certain threshold.

aikiwoce · 08/08/08, 9:02 PM

Found this, too:

Darkglow Embroidery - "Embroiders a magical pattern into your cloak, giving you a chance to restore $55767s1 mana when you cast a spell. You can only embroider your own cloak and embroidering your cloak will cause it to become soulbound."

Lightweave Embroidery - "Embroiders a subtle pattern of light into your cloak, giving you a chance to cause an additional $55637s1 Holy damage when you damage an enemy with a spell. You can only embroider your own cloak and embroidering your cloak will cause it to become soulbound."

Swordguard Embroidery - "Embroiders a magical pattern into your cloak, causing your damaging melee attacks to sometimes ignore $55775s1 of your target's armor. You can only embroider your own cloak and embroidering your cloak will cause it to become soulbound."

Looks like they are implementing tailoring only cloak enchants. I'll update if I find more.

Update: Maybe not tailoring, given the third one.

Deltrus · 08/08/08, 9:04 PM

I think that the mana penalty on arcane empowerment has been removed.

Pintofbrew · 08/08/08, 9:05 PM

Is AB turning into a hunter-style thing, where we are supposed to regulate whether we want to spam at full debuff or constantly rotate low-rank ABs just like BC hunters select 3:2 1:1 or 1:1.5 ratios?

3*75% cost increase does strike as sliiightly unsustainable. For any realistic time-frame that is.

Roywyn · 08/08/08, 9:06 PM

Originally Posted by Jonny_Monroe

I'd say at the very least 25%/75% isn't overpowered simply because theres no way in hell thats sustainable unless you can find a nice balance and throw the buff when you need to. ABar certainly makes that easy to do. What drags it down still is the crit% and the fact that the spell really doesn't like haste beyond a certain threshold.

Remember when they said that in BC?
Keep in mind that Blast spam is now 66% more mana efficient (because it's not a speed increase but a damage increase) and that the level penalty for spirit regen is pretty low right now and and that JoW is retardedly good.

From the numbers, Blast spam is very likely sustainable once you get some level 80 epics. 600 spirit and 900 intellect before kings/talents should be sufficient along with raid buffs and JoW to sustain Blast spam through 6 minutes.