You'd need 2.7k spell damage with 2T5, or 3.5k with 2T5 for 10k hits

Changing the 3-stacked Blast from 3*15% to 3*25% is pretty much exactly a 20% increase.
(From 145% to 175% is a 20.689655...% increaese.)
So that's 2T5 practically made baseline, and they can remove it in the future. It might also just have been totally random.
There is still the thing of an 80% better mana efficiency on this state without 2T5 *cough*


Mana Cost of Arcane Blast
255/446/673/828 - normal
247/432/617/802 - with Arcane Focus
321/506/691/876 - with Arcane Focus and Arcane Power
So the Arcane Power cost and Arcane Blast cost penalties are additive like before, and multiplicative with Arcane Focus.

That means that Arcane Power is still a large DPM increase for Blast spam.


Regarding Spell Power
The currently best setup in Rawr has 1603 fire damage raid buffed without spirit for a tailor/enchanter.
With IDS and Hex instead of Sliver you'd be at at 1691 fire damage raid buffed without pots/cooldowns.

Also, for what it's worth:
Level 60 Fireball was 638 base damage, AQ book is listed as 678.
Level 66 (our BC spell) is 735 at level 70. The level 70 spell that never made it in-game was 815.
Level 78 Fireball is listed as 1010.
These base damage increases seem pretty random to me. I was trying to look for something like a pattern, but they seem mostly random and insignificant.

If the current version of Arcane Blast can work, I don't see why Living Bomb can't.

The Arcane Blast specs these days go through a ton of mana. This is fine for short fights or conditions where you have a large surplus of mana, but if you lack mana sources your dps will tank big time. Arcane Missiles sucks hard, and you lack the fire talents to perform well with fireballs and scorches. Basically, once your oom, the full fire mages will catch up and pass you.

Living Bomb will work similarly, allowing you to become a mana-guzzling machine to pump out extra damage. It may not do that as well as the current Arcane Blast spec does, but it also doesn't suffer when mana becomes an issue. Because a LB mage IS a full fire mage, he can fall back on a boring old fire rotation, and do it just fine because he's got all the talents for it.

Don't think of Living Bomb as part of your regular fire rotation, but rather as a "mana dump" for those situations when your regular rotation just isn't going to use all of the mana you have available, either because you've got more mana regen than you were expecting or the fight is simply too short to blow through your mana pool. It doesn't redefine how a fire mage plays, but it gives the fire mage a nice way to use his mana faster when mana is a luxury and time is not.


Now all this is great assuming that deep fire is still actually viable. If fire rotation without LB doesn't actually perform well enough, LB is not going to fix it. Deep fire needs to be viable with or without LB. I mean, deep fire mages these days don't exactly depend on Dragon's Breath. I expect that Living Bomb will at least see more utility in raids than Dragon's Breath is bringing right now.

Although it can work this way, you also have to take into account the lost of 1 talent point that could be put into another talent like coldsnap.

Just for the sake of CD stacking before logging out, you can use SCB and hex and log out with close to 1.8k damage.

but cold snap is mostly going to be used for an additional icy flows which will also increase your dps and mana consumption so..

anyway taking 51/20 builds fireball spam with 20% haste is 1165mp/5, with living bomb it's around 1500mp/5

ffb is around 960mp/5 at the same haste going up to 1250mp/5 with living bomb

note i didnt account for the 1.3sec gcd for casting living bomb so the second mp/5 values would actually be lower, seems to work out at around a 1.3x increase in mana consumption though

also bear in mind that 51/20 builds for fireball and ffb will also be including frost channeling giving a boost to efficiency that isnt present in tbc.

does anyone know if living bomb is giving moe procs in beta? that may have quite an impact on its sustainability.

there's also always mage armor, living bomb is around a 10% dps increase right? so losing the 3% crit from molten may be worthwhile to make use of the 30% regen (it seems like it would be worthwhile if it allowed you to sustain living bomb but the crit modifiers of ffb and the extra returns from moe may make it closer than you would assume) especially considering the increased prevalence of spirit.

It seems strange to me that Bliz would intend an AoE spell like LB - which does not insignificant dmg to surrounding mobs AND has a secondary knock-up effect - to be included in the standard spell rotation on single mob/raid bosses. Show me the other AoE spell that is used to enhance single-target dps? I'm not holding out much hope that it's going to stay the way it is.

It was reported a bit earlier in thread that it currently does not.

Hopefully they'll have checked over our armors and fixed them in some way so this is a nonissue. At least I still hope they fix our armors.

It's somehow very similar to Shamans Chain Heal which is quite effective for single target healing too.
I don't know much about Hunters, but Multishot?

I think the actual design of LB is really great. It's a substential dps increase for single target dps (at the cost of mana) and for aoe.
In the last 10 pages fire mages were complaining that they don't want to sacrifice single target dps for aoe (talents) and want talents useful for aoe AND single dps. Living Bomb is a perfect answer for these problems.
I can only hope it stays as it is, where is the problem in this spell? It's a 51 point talent after all and costs extra mana.
The knockback? Mobs which are immune to stuns/slows/stc. will probably be/get immune to the knockback also, so not an issue.


A question to Beta players: Has anyone tested, if Blizzard can proc impact if specced?

Chain lightning, whirlwind, swipe, consecration, divine storm and maybe murder spree.
The factoring point is that primary aoe skill isn't intented to replace any primary single target skill. All these skills have CD or dot portion(swipe might outscale lacerate which is kinda problem) what make these aoe skills not spammable but useable in rotation. Just like living bomb.

And hunters get Explosive shot if they are survival, which seems to be somewhat similar to LB.

It's just a matter of degree and LB seems to be a few magnitudes removed from the general mechanics affecting spells like ABr - which is just a more powerful spell, not a radical change in a mechanic that has been pretty much consistent since the beginning of the game.

I guess it just doesn't feel like an elegant solution to fire mage single-target and AoE issues. If it ends up being balanced around single target dps rotations we're getting the AoE effect for free, if it ends up costing us more because of the AoE effect and we are using it mainly on single targets we're paying more for nothing.

Even more disturbing is the seemingly adhoc way we ended up with a 51 point talent - it went from completely useless to almost op in one change.

I'd classify all of these as different to the mechanics of caster AoE dps. I'm talking about the type of talents/skills that put you on top of the dmg meters in an AoE encounter. None of these do. LB has a pure caster AoE component - a component that is different to 'x number of mobs get hit'.

Koraas statement about utility/DPS compromises really hit a nerve for me. I really hope it was directed purely at the imp WE mana regen. It frustrates me whenever the changes to Imp Scorch & WC are even considered utility. They should by no means be treated as utility for DPS balance purposes, since they are specifically designed to boost the classes own DPS.

It seems that the only way Mages will have competitive DPS is when all Mage debuffs are present.It is like the devs realized the Mages lack of damage capability and opted to give the trees a few debuffs to close the gap.... then point to the exact same DPS-modifying debuffs as an example of utility, and thus a reason to nerf the damage!
I'm sorry but it just doesn't work both ways. Yes, the WC debuff will help Destruction Firelocks and Moonkin, and imp scorch will help Moonkin whereas it has always boosted Firelocks.... but Focus Magic is nothing but a damage spell with a different mechanic, and it seems like Mages are the only ones going OOM getting excited about the imp WE mana regen.

In the end, all this so-called utility is essentially Mage-only. Shaman, Priests, Warriors, Paladins, Rogues, Hunters and 2 out of 3 Warlock/Druid specs still couldn't care less if a Mage is brought to the raid. That sounds a lot more like liability than utility, and certainly not any reason to bring multiple Mages to a raid unless Mage DPS rivals Rogues.

As it stands now, I can easily see a raid justifiably bringing 0 Mages, 0 Destruction Warlocks & 0 Moonkin. The only way to redeem the classes/specs is ensuring that the three specs combined do more damage than any other 3 class/spec combination. Otherwise, you replace a Mage and lose Imp Scorch? Moonkin, Destrolock & Mage lose 10% damage. Lose WC & imp WE? Moonkin, Destrolock & Mage lose 10% crit & sustainability. Lose the Moonkin? Destrolock & Two Mages lose 5% crit and ~5% overall haste.

note: if you drop Mages, you might as well drop any Destruction Warlock too because 10% damage and 10% crit lost would cripple viability.

No matter how you swing it, 2 Mage specs, Destrolock and a Moonkin appear necessarily a package deal, or you lose 10% damage from each remaining source. Then, even if all are present, if they don't outdamage 4 rogues or 4 hunters or 2 rogues/1 enhance shaman/1 warrior, etc. etc. ... then theres no reason to ever bring them to raid for anything beyond gimmick AoE/spellsteal encounters. This is why having top DPS potential is so imperative if the specs remain the way they are; without the DPS potential the so-called "utility" is nigh useless and not worth the slot, because the main beneficiaries of the "utility" would be the lagging DPS classes.

Consecration and Divine Storm might actually do this, consec scales with AP now and rets got spelldmg so it scales which it didn't do before for a ret pally (and dind't scale much either for holy or prot). I haven't seen any numbers on this so I don't know how much dmg it actually is. but that's not the point, using Consec to do single target dps seems to be the same kind of wrong than using LB but still it is common place.
Maybe accept it as a new and interesting mechanic that could actually change our play style (which frankly didn't change much form the beginning of WoW Classic), if only a little bit

Getting back to the mana regen issues and "raid-wide" buffs, I'm wondering if anyone knows how these will work. If the talents still have a range, being raid-wide won't change matters much on many boss fights because of the requirement to stay spread out in a huge space. It would be wonderful to receive all these benefits, but the fight mechanics won't allow it in many instances. I suppose we will have to wait until raids are implemented in beta to know for sure. Until then, I think mana regen is still a big concern.

OMG a mage that understands that a destrolock and mage are in the same boat. You should post this on the mage forums in wow cause all you see them do there is whine about how mages should not be equaled in range dps. What most of those fools don't realize is that if Destro lock DPS doesn't rival a mage there is no need to bring a destro lock at all to a raid ever. A demo lock will provide all the utility a lock can possibly offer now that Ebon Plague doesn't stack with CoE. Affliction our so called "debuff" tree has all its useful debuffs at the top of the tree that any lock can easily get. The bottom of the tree does nothing for the raid. Destruction does nothing for the raid. You will see at most 1 demo lock who is just their to put up CoR and One mage for the occasional if sheep these classes aren't given specs that can provide top end DPS that is right bellow rogues. Ideally Mages should have 2 primary dps specs and 1 utility spec. Warlocks should have 2 utility specs and 1 primary DPS spec. Affliction/Demo utility Destro primary DPS. For mages Arcane/Fire Primary DPS and Frost Utility. Affliction/Demo/and Frost should be doing about the same damage because of utility but arcane/fire/and destro needs to be doing amazing DPS. Hopefully this is where Blizz is trying to head with the classes.

Its no different than pointing out that WC is better than COE or COR. You absolutely want 2 warlocks for COE and COR (well, maybe not anymore ?). You absolutely want 2 mages for scorch and WC. COR affects all melee, whereas WC affects a much smaller subset of players, although the boost is significant enough to absolutely enforce a WC mage.

Then theres imp WE thats unaccounted for. I just don't know why they made it regen mana.

I was taking into account nature and shadow schools too.

Well, they did want the WE to give mana all the way back from pre TBC. The first blue posts on the matter and i think it was blizzcon or something like that, they hinted that they thought about WE giving mana since its a water elemental. Personally I'm not against it; its more the fact that, in my view, WC should probably be frost-only or WC should have a lower increase.

The point I'm trying to make though is that you don't absolutely want 2 mages for scorch & WC. There are even further limited raid slots now and as a result it can be pretty reasonable to assume a Destruction Warlock and a Moonkin could likely not be present. If that is the case. Imp scorch and WC are totally useless to all classes except Mages (and possibly DKs depending on how much of their damage will be frost in raids) ... unless you want to really stretch the situation to include arcane shot. The only ones who would absolutely want the 2 mages would be the 2 mages.

This likely scenario actually presents Mages with zero added raid utility beyond imp WE. If Mages don't stack up in the damage department at this point, then there really isn't any justification for the class at all unless your raid clings to Polymorph and AI. This is quite a serious concern IMO. Resto Druid, Feral Druid, Affliction Lock and Demo Lock are all very likely to be brought... so unless your raid brings a 3rd Druid and/or Warlock, there is no utility from Imp Scorch or WC.

I think Mages saw the Imp Scorch and WC changes and got blown away at the appearance of utility because it was simply from the Mage perspective. In practical circumstances, those WC and scorch debuffs may in fact provide zero non-mage utility.

again ebon plague does not stack with CoE. Ebon Plague > CoE. You only need ONE curse now from ONE lock come. Now what type of lock will this lock be? If you had it your way would it be a destro lock who does nothing for the raid and provides subpar DPS? Or would it be an affliction lock who again does nothing for the raid and provides supbar DPS. Or would it be a demo lock who can buff the oh so leet mages with demonic pact while bringing CoR and ISB. So again if a destro lock doesn't rival mage dps why bring one to a raid EVER? At least you could argue bringing an affliction lock if some how your raid doesn't have a DK. In reality you bring your one demo lock and call it a day. You have your soul stone, health stone, summon, banish, CoR, ISB, Dark Pact, Demonic Pact (all of a warlocks utility) in one player. If your raid needs more healthstone they can buy pots. If they need more soul stones something is wrong. See why Destro has to rival the best mage dps spec? Its not infringing wrongfully on mage territory because by design the destro tree is meant to do exactly just that.

Qbert, you are effectively assuming a melee heavy raid here. I'm doubting this is very desirable, and there's some reason to believe that Blizz is going to be throwing a lot of aoe along the way.

Is our utility caster specific? Sure, but then again, I don't get a whole lot out of battleshout or sunder armor or windfury totem or the like. Utility need not apply to every single class to be useful.

I haven't followed warlock WotLK news but has Blizzard said that affliction locks would be doing subpar DPS in the xpac? I realize that they do subpar DPS now. But them times they are a changin'.

Blizzard has certainly said a design goal is that DPS + Utility should be equal across specs. And they further said that a spec with tiny dps and HUGE UTILITY is a bad idea (ala shadow priests) because you HAVE to bring shadow priests for the utility and the ones that get to come get to sit there and watch others put up the fun numbers because of their utility. They don't want any "HAVE TO BRING THIS" specs in the xpac. Hence the nerf of VT and the increase in shadow priest person damage. Or the change to tanking where any of the 4 tanking classes can be a raid MT.

I know I keep harping on similar topics, but at least half the arguments here seem to be from the mindset of WoW how is it now. Things like one spec pigeonholed into pvp or specs that are all utility and no personal contribution are going away. At least that is the goal. In terms of helping Blizzard with the beta, I'd much rather see the community help them make this goal a reality instead of reverting to thinking like "Affliction locks will always suck in raids, who would bring one? So buff Destro damage!!!!" Wouldn't it be better if affliction locks approached (and scaled with) destro lock damage, minus a little if they have more utility? Same for frost spec vs arcane/fire.

You're contradicting yourself though. You may not get much out of shouts or sunders... but every single physical DPS class does. I believe they are even adding a ranged version of Windfury. That utility is desired because it synergizes with many classes/specs that will assuredly be present because of scaling. If sunders & shouts only affected Warriors ... and totems only affected Shaman ... would you consider their utility as valuable as it is now? The problem is that what people are calling the new "Mage utility" is in all likelihood not providing any raid utility at all. In that case it is simply splitting Mage damage modifiers between 2 players, it isn't utility. Even if you switched up the matrix to be extremely caster-heavy, Imp Scorch and WC does not affect all casters, in fact it affects very few non-mage casters (2 specs). It wouldn't even be considered in the same league as melee utility when you stack the raid with casters.

Let me make it clear though that I'm fine with it the way it is as long as Mage damage is competitive enough to be brought for damage alone. I just don't enjoy reading so many posts (mainly WoW/beta forums) exaggerating Mage utility like raid are seriously going to be desiring mages now for Imp Scorch and WC when they wont be, and then reading a class designer post about potentially reducing mage damage due to this phantom utility. Put the debuffs in realistic raid matrices and you'll find that it really isn't benefiting anybody but mages and maybe a destro lock if he is lucky enough to be invited. WC/IS are not utility, they are modifiers and should only be treated as such.