[Mage] WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 186

Talbain · 08/13/08, 10:15 PM

Possible, but I haven't checked other class changes yet.

Zeldyrr · 08/13/08, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Muphrid

Well, Blizzard seems to have addressed the Fingers of Frost problem (of Ice Lance still being useless to cast with it) by implementing the 4-second cap. But this is a simple DPS loss due to Ice Lance's poor scaling and base damage. In addition, with enough haste (which is not going to be too hard to do with Icy Veins at least every once in a while), we're right back to double Frostbolts being ideal when Deep Freeze is on cooldown.

Hmmm. You are usually much more on the ball than me when it comes to these sort of things so I hesitate to question you. But if you have tons of haste + 4 seconds can't you:

fb
fb + IV/DF combo?

That was the point of no charges thing. You can ALWAYS slip in a shatter combo at the end?

Edit: The wording of the talent seems to imply that it is a debuff on the target but only specific to the mage that cast it. Are there any debuffs in the game that work like that? Mind you I think it is fine--it was odd to get FoF proc on one target and turn and blast a different one. But did Blizzard have to code a unique debuff to make this happen?

Talbain · 08/13/08, 10:25 PM

It's possible with a certain amount of haste Zeldyrr. So Fingers of Frost is now much more powerful. Though I'm curious, is the change to Fingers of Frost a self-buff or a debuff on a target?

aikiwoce · 08/13/08, 11:02 PM

There's something odd going on with spell cost in this build. Apparently down-ranking will be more expensive than using the max rank. It seems that all spells may now cost a % of base mana. I was seeing some odd numbers in the data file, but this image and the MMO-Champion Talent Calc are what I'm basing my current theory on. (Notice how Ice Barrier costs 25% of base mana)

Could someone in Beta please provide more information when you log in?

edit: Here's another example.
edit2: Another example this time shammy's lightning bolt spell - Rank 12: 310 mana, Rank 1-11: 403 mana.

Note: Images are coming from Main Page - WotlkWiki - Wrath of the Lich King Information, and he's posting them to the frontpage at the moment.

Update: Thottbot confirmed my suspicion. All spells now cost a % of your base mana, and non-max ranks have an additional cost added to them.

This should be what Frostbolt look like all the time. Another pic.

manly · 08/13/08, 11:31 PM

For me its always crashing at 50% at the blue bar.

Talbain · 08/13/08, 11:33 PM

Downranking is dead... well this makes things interesting for Frost Mages now doesn't it?

PsyBomb · 08/13/08, 11:49 PM

There is no way that the downranking thing is final. Period. If they were going to do something like this, then they would have removed the downranked spells from the spellbook completely and had them update like warrior/rogue/DK abilities.

What I suspect is that it's supposed to be the %base cost for the top rank, with slightly less cost for the lower spell. Someone just put a plus sign instead of a minus in the calculation equation.

Talbain · 08/13/08, 11:50 PM

I'd actually be happy if downranking were dead, but unfortunately you're probably right.

Nurru · 08/13/08, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by PsyBomb

There is no way that the downranking thing is final. Period. If they were going to do something like this, then they would have removed the downranked spells from the spellbook completely and had them update like warrior/rogue/DK abilities.

What I suspect is that it's supposed to be the %base cost for the top rank, with slightly less cost for the lower spell. Someone just put a plus sign instead of a minus in the calculation equation.

You're forgetting that there's still value in casting a 0.5 second Frostbolt, regardless of mana cost. This applies to other spells as well and isn't as cut and dry as replacing old ranks of Warrior / Death Knight abilities that all are instant or on-next-attack.

• Hamlet · 08/13/08, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by PsyBomb

There is no way that the downranking thing is final. Period. If they were going to do something like this, then they would have removed the downranked spells from the spellbook completely and had them update like warrior/rogue/DK abilities.

What I suspect is that it's supposed to be the %base cost for the top rank, with slightly less cost for the lower spell. Someone just put a plus sign instead of a minus in the calculation equation.

It's entirely possible that this was simply the easiest way to implement the desired change, from a technical perspective.

Talbain · 08/13/08, 11:57 PM

Mana Shield
Absorbs 1330 damage, draining mana instead. Drains 0 mana per damage absorbed. Lasts 1 min.

Anybody know what the deal is with this? Spelling error? Wrath of the Lich King - Mage - Arcane Skills

Lurker · 08/14/08, 12:00 AM

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/3...8215750za9.jpg

Guess I'll go play with Frost for a while.

PsyBomb · 08/14/08, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by Nurru

You're forgetting that there's still value in casting a 0.5 second Frostbolt, regardless of mana cost. This applies to other spells as well and isn't as cut and dry as replacing old ranks of Warrior / Death Knight abilities that all are instant or on-next-attack.

I thought of that, but chew on this. The only spells in the Mage's spellbook that I can think of benefitting from a downrank of any kind is R1 Frostbolt (pure kiting) with an EXTREMELY obscure use of R3 and lower Fireball (spam to hit Impacts). Nobody uses Fireballs like that, and R1 Frostbolt kiting died when Intercept started suppressing snares. When is the last time you used a downrank for anything other than mana concerns?

manly · 08/14/08, 12:02 AM

Ok so heres the base mana cost for everything now. I am 0/0/0 and have no talents lowering the costs. All spells are max rank for lvl 77. Percentages are of the base mana.

Arcane Blast - 40%, 1184 (lol)
Arcane Barrage - 18%, 522
Fireblast - 21%, 621
Fireball - 21%, 621
Frostfire Bolt - 16%, 473
Scorch - 8%, 236
Frostbolt - 15%, 444
Ice Lance - 7%, 207
Deep Freeze - 8%, 236

Shadowbolt - 17% (cheaper than fireball, go figure)

Arcane Explosion - 25%, 725
Arcane Missiles - 34%, 1006
Focus Magic - 535
Mana Shield - 7%, 207
Polymorph - 12%, 355
Slow - 20%, 592
Spellsteal - 20%, 592
Remove Curse - 8%, 236
Blink - 21%, 620
Counterspell - 9%, 266
Invisibility - 16%, 473

Flamestrike - 53%, 1568
Blastwave - 28%, 828
Dragon's Breath - 31%, 917
Living Bomb - 31%, 1095
Pyroblast - 22%, 651

Blizzard - 74%, 2190
Cone of Cold - 29%, 858
Frostnova - 8%, 236
Ice Barrier - 25%, 740
Water Elemental - 16%, 473

Nurru · 08/14/08, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Psybomb

I thought of that, but chew on this. The only spells in the Mage's spellbook that I can think of benefitting from a downrank of any kind is R1 Frostbolt (pure kiting) with an EXTREMELY obscure use of R3 and lower Fireball (spam to hit Impacts). Nobody uses Fireballs like that, and R1 Frostbolt kiting died when Intercept started suppressing snares. When is the last time you used a downrank for anything other than mana concerns?

You missed some major ones, lets go down the list:
Frost Nova
Polymorph
Cone of Cold
Ice Armor
Arcane Intellect
Dampen Magic

You don't have to think very hard to understand why people were using rank 1 of those abilities.

Talent/Skill Update:
Frostbolt's graphic is enormous.
Frostfire Bolt has its own graphic now.
Brain Freeze is not proccing.
3/3 Prismatic Cloak still breaks Invisibility.
Fingers of Frost is properly back to 4 seconds, but still does not count as "Frozen".
Shattered Barrier does still not proc when Ice Barrier is removed via dispel or damage.
Improved Water Elemental still does not provide mana regeneration.
Deep Freeze now gains benefit from Ice Shards.

Tanavael · 08/14/08, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by Talbain

Mana Shield
Absorbs 1330 damage, draining mana instead. Drains 0 mana per damage absorbed. Lasts 1 min.

Anybody know what the deal is with this? Spelling error? Wrath of the Lich King - Mage - Arcane Skills

This seems to be a spelling error; the german client still says the old thing about the 1.5 mana per damage - and you still lose mana if you get hit.

Did somebody else noticed a lot less partial resists versus higher moblevels?
It doesn't seem so brutal anymore.

PsyBomb · 08/14/08, 12:35 AM

*sigh* looks like I'm just going to have to eat crow (and my foot) on the downranking thing. Blue poster said that most spells get a bit cheaper when they hit their final rank, so it looks like that was all intentional.

Oh, and Nuuru, I said other than mana concerns. Sorry I didn't put it earlierin the post, I was working under the assumption of the %base cost already.

manly · 08/14/08, 12:42 AM

new graphics

Lhivera · 08/14/08, 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by Muphrid

Well, Blizzard seems to have addressed the Fingers of Frost problem (of Ice Lance still being useless to cast with it) by implementing the 4-second cap. But this is a simple DPS loss due to Ice Lance's poor scaling and base damage. In addition, with enough haste (which is not going to be too hard to do with Icy Veins at least every once in a while), we're right back to double Frostbolts being ideal when Deep Freeze is on cooldown.

The critical difference is that, no matter how much Haste you have, you can always follow up your last Frostbolt with a Deep Freeze (if it's up) or an Ice Lance (if it's not).

Assuming the proc happens on hit, we'll say you're 1 second into your next Frostbolt when the proc happens, so:

0.0 secs: Frostbolt 0 procs buff
1.5 secs: Frostbolt 1 releases
4.0 secs: Frostbolt 2 + Deep Freeze or Ice Lance releases

With 0 haste this is tricky, but with even a little haste, it's pretty much guaranteed. So you now get 2 Shatter Frostbolts plus a Shatter Ice Lance or Deep Freeze.

Originally Posted by Zeldyrr

Edit: The wording of the talent seems to imply that it is a debuff on the target but only specific to the mage that cast it. Are there any debuffs in the game that work like that? Mind you I think it is fine--it was odd to get FoF proc on one target and turn and blast a different one. But did Blizzard have to code a unique debuff to make this happen?

Still reads as a buff to me. And it would be pretty silly of them to make it a debuff since it only affects the caster -- why consume a debuff slot with it?

Sinless · 08/14/08, 12:57 AM

Please delete.

manly · 08/14/08, 1:10 AM

Upload wasn't working for a small while.

-- edit: also, edited for the new data for spell mana cost in my previous post. some truly mind boggling stuff in there (40% arcane blast)

Soul · 08/14/08, 1:18 AM

Originally Posted by PsyBomb

I thought of that, but chew on this. The only spells in the Mage's spellbook that I can think of benefitting from a downrank of any kind is R1 Frostbolt (pure kiting) with an EXTREMELY obscure use of R3 and lower Fireball (spam to hit Impacts). Nobody uses Fireballs like that, and R1 Frostbolt kiting died when Intercept started suppressing snares. When is the last time you used a downrank for anything other than mana concerns?

Conjuring food/water for lowbies :-P. I'm not making any stacks of muffins if it costs 48% base mana for 20.

Zeldyrr · 08/14/08, 1:32 AM

Originally Posted by Lhivera

Still reads as a buff to me. And it would be pretty silly of them to make it a debuff since it only affects the caster -- why consume a debuff slot with it?

I agree. The only thing making a debuff would gain them is preventing people from proc'ing FoF on one target and then turning and unloading on a different one. Which while that seems odd is hardly game-breaking. So while I agree with you, the text from mmo-champions is:

Gives your Frost damage spells a 10% chance to apply the Fingers of Frost effect, which treat your Frost spells cast on the target as if the target were Frozen. Lasts 4 sec.

It says "...cast on the target..." Why even add this? And if you do add it, shouldn't it be "...cast on your next target..."? The term "the target" seems to mean "the target that proc'ed FoF"? Probably just a typo but could someone with beta access test?

And since they do mention targets, what happens if you cast Blizzard or Cone of Cold, which you can cast without having a target chosen?

Nurru · 08/14/08, 1:33 AM

FoF is still a self buff and has been that way since Winter's Grasp was renamed. Not sure why people keep thinking otherwise. We can't test it because it simply doesn't work still as I mentioned in my post a bit up.

Lhivera · 08/14/08, 1:37 AM

Originally Posted by Zeldyrr

I agree. The only thing making a debuff would gain them is preventing people from proc'ing FoF on one target and then turning and unloading on a different one. Which while that seems odd is hardly game-breaking. So while I agree with you, the text from mmo-champions is:

Gives your Frost damage spells a 10% chance to apply the Fingers of Frost effect, which treat your Frost spells cast on the target as if the target were Frozen. Lasts 4 sec.

It says "...cast on the target..." Why even add this? And if you do add it, shouldn't it be "...cast on your next target..."? The term "the target" seems to mean "the target that proc'ed FoF"? Probably just a typo but could someone with beta access test?

And since they do mention targets, what happens if you cast Blizzard or Cone of Cold, which you can cast without having a target chosen?

They call me mad, but I'm still expecting that this buff will only work against the target you actually procced it on. I realize there's not another buff in the game that works this way, but if they can track combo points by target, they can certainly figure out a way to track buffs per target as well...in fact, this could explain why it's taking so long to get it working.