[Mage] WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 190

Cwealm · 08/14/08, 5:27 PM

Originally Posted by manly

Didn't the very first blizzcast (or was it a blizzcon panel? -- possibly the first blizzcon mage panel) they said specifically that using rank 1 arcane explosion to detect rogue was specifically unintended ? I'm pretty 100% sure they said that.

Blizzcon, 2007. Link Here:

The MMO Gamer: Let me ask you a hypothetical: Let’s say you walked outside of the convention center right now, and there was a DeLorean with a flux capacitor in the back waiting at the curb. You have the opportunity to go back in time to when you first began working on WoW. What would you do differently the second time around, and how would you do it without creating a time paradox that could destroy the entire universe?

Jeffrey Kaplan: Well, I can’t promise about creating a time paradox and destroying the entire universe, but there are definitely some things that I would do differently. One thing that we’ve often talked about—that we could never change in WoW, but, I’d like to revisit the concept of in future games—was not locking the action bar in World of Warcraft.

We definitely didn’t want to have the constraint system that EverQuest had, with very few spells and abilities, we wanted players to have a lot of spells and abilities, but I think we should have limited the overall amount of buttons that were on the screen, I actually think it would have been a benefit to players. I actually think as new expansions come out, new abilities, new clickable items, we’re getting to the point where it’s actually a lot of clutter on the screen, and I would have liked to have locked the action bar.

There are other things that are sort of adverse that came out of this, an example is we never intended for Mages to have point blank AE stealth detection, but because any Mage can just put rank one Arcane Explosion on his bar at any time and just spam it any time he thinks a Rogue is in the area, it’s given the Mage an ability that we didn’t actually intend them to have, but because we don’t limit what you can put on your action bar there’s no downside to doing that.

So that’s one example. I don’t have a large example, there’s not one thing that I could point to and say I would change this huge system, or I would never do this or that. It’s a lot of small decisions along the way, I think that’s where great game design ultimate comes from, is a series of small very important decisions that no one decision is the make or break for the game, it’s all the little choices along the way.

Feh.

Others beat me to it. Delete this please.

Daydreamer · 08/14/08, 5:29 PM

The 6% caused to ensnared targets from Torment the Weak is strange because it seems to be more of a Frost talent since Frostbolt has the built-in snare... there's nothing preventing the Arcane mage from leading with Frostbolt, though, if that turns out more fruitful than using Slow, but it would be a shame if the intent is to make Slow more worthwhile.

It helps Arcane some, but the GCD from casting Slow is 10% of the 15 seconds of the debuff, so off a straight rotation you're only outputting (0.90 * 1.06) 95.4% of the damage you'd normally have over that 15 seconds span, not to mention losing any Arcane Blast stack you might have. But not all time you spend casting has the same constant DPS, and it could worthwhile to sacrifice 1.5 seconds of casting time to boost 13.5 if the next 13.5 has a much higher base DPS. So you could cast Slow before you use your trinket/Icy Vein/Arcane Power/Presence of Mind and squeeze an extra 6% damage out of your cooldown-macro-of-doom. Even that might be iffy to get a positive DPS return on. And, of course, you do get an extra 6% damage bonus if you use Slow in its manifest purpose of debuffing enemies, although that doesn't seem to be very popular in practice.

Meanwhile for Frost, the snare would almost be consistently up. Likewise if you have an Arcane Frost mage with a rotation that includes Frostbolt. Of course, that's only on non-bosses.

I dunno if the intention of Torment the Weak was to encourage the use of Slow, but it doesn't look like it's going to work quite that way.

Originally Posted by Thegoodman

The initial wording I read was "..Slowed targets". I like this a lot and think they should move it down in the arcane tree and have it mean just that, ANY target that has the slow debuff on it receives 6% additional damage. It would give Mages a huge buff for PvE usefulness.

On that scale, you run the risk of every raid including an Arcane Mage not for their DPS, but for the express purpose of maintaining the 15-second debuff on the boss. That's a lot of mana and GCDs to be spending over the course of a boss fight.

Cwealm · 08/14/08, 5:33 PM

Originally Posted by Saruk

Personally, I think that is a pretty small iceberg. I have rank 1 AE and rank 1 Frostbolt on my bar for PvP, but for PvE in particular, when do you use rank 1 of anything? What are you casting a rank 1 fireball at? And you're not casting rank 1 scorch in a cast rotation on a boss and on trash who really cares?

Not being able to down-rank is not a big deal. Even for unstealthing, smart rogues always got around it.

Most of the mage concerns are pvp and not pve related. Consider polymorph, whose mana cost is based on the eternity that things stay sheeped in pve. In PVP, it is a different story. Why max rank polymorph when it is limited to ten seconds in pvp? Then considering DR, the scaling is even worse using max rank, and eventually you are blowing an excessive amount of mana for a few seconds of polymorph.

Rank one fireball specifically for the cast time and dot. In pve, there were times when I used rank on e scorch when I was OOM, hoping for a clearcast so I could cast a nuke.

And so on and so on. With crip poison permanently applied, rank 1 CoC is a must, since it does horrible damage at max rank for single target use. No one uses it for damage. Rank 1 blizzard is now useless. Rank 1 nova. Rank 1 Fb. Rank 1 poly. Rank 1 arcane explosion. All spells that had great utility and, considering mage mana isssues, great utility. They were different spells, really, than the max rank ones. This is, in essence, removing a ton of skills while creating mana issues.

This is really going to change mage pvp, and not for the good.

Arazan · 08/14/08, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by Cwealm

Most of the mage concerns are pvp and not pve related.

I have to STRONGLY disagree with that statement. A lot of people have found that mages can function quite well even in small arena with rogue/mage or RM/healer 2's and 3's setups by using the control and burst capabilities of the mage and rogue classes. While pvp mages may not like that they basically have to group with a rogue, they have to realize that all classes are forced into their own role. A warrior can't really function in 2's or 3's without a healer, for example... and in 2's arena they really can't even do very well with a paladin or shaman healer. So while mages might not like the role they've been pigeonholed into in the arena, they still have a viable one.

In PvE, however, mages are simply not viable as a dps class. It's been commented on recently by basically every major raiding guild who all said that the mage is the least valuable class in TBC because they're so overshadowed by other classes that either do the same thing but better, or can match what a mage does but also provide other functions to the group or raid. Mages in pve don't really have a defined role because they're so overshadowed by other classes, and I think the VAST majority of mage concerns are in regards to pve.

Maybe pvp concerns are voiced more often across the board because the arena seems to have become the primary focus of the game, but I think mages have far more complaints about their pve role and viability than they have of their pvp role and viability.

Talbain · 08/14/08, 5:49 PM

Slow still isn't worth it, and unless Torment the Weak gives a powerful, specific buff to Slow, it will not be worth it. As many others have mentioned, it would be more likely for Frost to take the ability.

Seeing as how the downranking thing doesn't appear to be going anywhere, it'd certainly be nice to see Shadowstep off of the Preparation cooldown. Or maybe our Poly could finally stop healing targets.

In PvP specifically, the downranking change hurts casters in general, one can only hope that casters receive some form of compensation for not being able to downrank anymore, such as higher sustained DPS. I sort of agree with Lhivera in the belief that these numbers are somewhat random due to the team not knowing where each ability needs to fall, but it's a bit unnerving to see Arcane Blast where it's currently at. Also unnerving to not know whether or not the Frost tree will fall in line with Fire and Arcane. It still hasn't, for all the changes made.

Zeldyrr · 08/14/08, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by Cwealm

Most of the mage concerns are pvp and not pve related. Consider polymorph, whose mana cost is based on the eternity that things stay sheeped in pve. In PVP, it is a different story. Why max rank polymorph when it is limited to ten seconds in pvp? Then considering DR, the scaling is even worse using max rank, and eventually you are blowing an excessive amount of mana for a few seconds of polymorph.

Rank one fireball specifically for the cast time and dot. In pve, there were times when I used rank on e scorch when I was OOM, hoping for a clearcast so I could cast a nuke.

And so on and so on. With crip poison permanently applied, rank 1 CoC is a must, since it does horrible damage at max rank for single target use. No one uses it for damage. Rank 1 blizzard is now useless. Rank 1 nova. Rank 1 Fb. Rank 1 poly. Rank 1 arcane explosion. All spells that had great utility and, considering mage mana isssues, great utility. They were different spells, really, than the max rank ones. This is, in essence, removing a ton of skills while creating mana issues.

This is really going to change mage pvp, and not for the good.

Well it is only bad if they don't do anything to compensate. The blue post said they are ready to make changes to address issues as the result of the downranking change. Normally one might be pessimistic that they would actually make changes. But so far they have been really good about listening and making reasonable decisions.

In some ways I think this is just another change of mindset mages have to make. They got creative and dealt with pvp by some clever tricks. But how many other classes are forced to use tricks like these? I don't remember reading about rogues using "rank 1 stab" to build up combo points quickly. Running around doing rank 1 scorch to get a clearcast seems, well, tedious. Max rank CoC does horrible damage, so everyone uses rank 1 for just the snare? Well what if it didn't do horrible damage?

Additionally, if blizzard does make some pvp balancing changes to address the loss of all the rank 1 abilities, maybe these changes could benefit all the specs more equally and the domination of frost in pvp wouldn't be as strong.

Cwealm · 08/14/08, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by Arazan

I have to STRONGLY disagree with that statement. A lot of people have found that mages can function quite well even in small arena with rogue/mage or RM/healer 2's and 3's setups by using the control and burst capabilities of the mage and rogue classes. While pvp mages may not like that they basically have to group with a rogue, they have to realize that all classes are forced into their own role. A warrior can't really function in 2's or 3's without a healer, for example... and in 2's arena they really can't even do very well with a paladin or shaman healer. So while mages might not like the role they've been pigeonholed into in the arena, they still have a viable one.

In PvE, however, mages are simply not viable as a dps class. It's been commented on recently by basically every major raiding guild who all said that the mage is the least valuable class in TBC because they're so overshadowed by other classes that either do the same thing but better, or can match what a mage does but also provide other functions to the group or raid. Mages in pve don't really have a defined role because they're so overshadowed by other classes, and I think the VAST majority of mage concerns are in regards to pve.

Maybe pvp concerns are voiced more often across the board because the arena seems to have become the primary focus of the game, but I think mages have far more complaints about their pve role and viability than they have of their pvp role and viability.

You are not following this thread very well. My response that prompted this wall of text from you was in regard to the downranking change, which is most assuredly a concern for mages mainly (only) in the PVP aspect of the game. I am well aware of the other issues that face mage on the pve side of the game, but the downranking will have little if any impact.

Talbain · 08/14/08, 6:00 PM

Regardless, this certainly changes the whole realm of issues one has to think about. Perhaps more changes similar to Frost Nova's (the damage co-efficient being increased by some 300%) will be seen now that these mana changes have taken place... one can only hope.

Mystiq · 08/14/08, 7:43 PM

This really should not be affecting Mages in PvE. I haven't heard of Mages using rank 1 spells for Clearcasting since the heyday of SSC. I'm really just hoping this will help spells that are used for their utility instead of the effectiveness of their rank (Cone of Cold, Polymorph, Frost Nova, et al).

Arazan · 08/14/08, 7:46 PM

Originally Posted by Cwealm

You are not following this thread very well. My response that prompted this wall of text from you was in regard to the downranking change, which is most assuredly a concern for mages mainly (only) in the PVP aspect of the game. I am well aware of the other issues that face mage on the pve side of the game, but the downranking will have little if any impact.

Actually I haven't been following it at all.

I generally hate "we'll have to wait and see" type statements, but for pvp at level 80 we really will. We have absolutely no idea how much regen and what type of itemization pvp gear will have at level 80, and in all honesty there's so much variability that it's one of the few areas where we really just cannot speculate well at all. DPM system and regen in pve has a lot of variability, but in all honesty it's irrelevant. In PvE, mages are the best class for casting regen. Just tossing on mage armor gives us equal to what all other caster classes get at best, and talenting it up to 60% casting regen is way better than any other mage-type class gets.

So really, with spirit casting regen, they will (or at least should) balance it around classes that get at most 30% casting regen. Any mage can get 30% by tossing on mage armor, 60% with arcane meditation, so mages should be sitting pretty in the regen game. If not, we still have evocation to fall back on, and if they design the casting regen system in such a way that a caster with 60% casting regen AND evocation still can't manage their mana, then ALL casters are fucked. So really, in pve either mages will be well off in terms of regen, or all casters will be equally screwed by a system that doesn't work. Either way, there's no point in arguing over it.

In PvP, it means mages can't freely use AE to search out stealthers (something the devs previously said they didn't ever intend mages to do), and it means you'll have to use a pretty hefty chunk of mana to get that 1 second frostbolt.

Talbain · 08/14/08, 7:55 PM

I'm really hoping this change means that Polymorph will no longer be a "heal the enemy" spell.

Nurru · 08/14/08, 7:59 PM

Originally Posted by Talbain

I'm really hoping this change means that Polymorph will no longer be a "heal the enemy" spell.

Perhaps I missed something, but are you suggesting that because we can't downrank spells that Polymorph should no longer heal?

Talbain · 08/14/08, 8:05 PM

Originally Posted by Nurru

Perhaps I missed something, but are you suggesting that because we can't downrank spells that Polymorph should no longer heal?

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. If Frost Nova can do 200-300% more damage, then it's probably realistic to expect that Polymorph doesn't have to heal.

Cwealm · 08/14/08, 8:09 PM

Originally Posted by Arazan

In PvP, it means mages can't freely use AE to search out stealthers (something the devs previously said they didn't ever intend mages to do), and it means you'll have to use a pretty hefty chunk of mana to get that 1 second frostbolt.

That is just it, it also means you can not rank 1 CoC kite the rogue chasing you while you have permanently applied crippling poison, it means you get charged the maximum mana cost for a several second sheep after two DR's, it means you can not use a rank 1 fireball on a poly'd rogue to keep them from vanishing, it means you can not do a lot of things.

And mark my words, I know what we will get in return to "fix" this.

Spirit on pvp gear.

Zaroua · 08/14/08, 8:14 PM

Originally Posted by Talbain

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. If Frost Nova can do 200-300% more damage, then it's probably realistic to expect that Polymorph doesn't have to heal.

Frostbolt > Frost Nova > Frostbolt > Deep Freeze > Ice Lance > Frost Bolt > Water Elemental Freeze > Frostbolt > Deep Freeze > Ice Lance > Frostbolt > Cold Snap > Frost Nova > Frostbolt > Deep Freeze > Polymorph > Frostbolt > Polymorph > Frostbolt > Polymorph > Frostbolt.

Most Mages and pretty much everyone who plays a non-Mage will whine so much that the change will never go through, and with good reason. I'd go so far as to say that Fear/Cyclone/Seduce should also somehow heal up the target in PvP to see how it balances it out.

Vhad · 08/14/08, 8:18 PM

All CC's should have a heal component! There's deminishing returns on poly as well as other spells so just cause you can poly run a little and frostbolt doesn't make it more overpowered than fear/cyclone/seduce, by any means.

Evalara · 08/14/08, 8:22 PM

Originally Posted by Arazan

So really, with spirit casting regen, they will (or at least should) balance it around classes that get at most 30% casting regen. Any mage can get 30% by tossing on mage armor, 60% with arcane meditation, so mages should be sitting pretty in the regen game. If not, we still have evocation to fall back on, and if they design the casting regen system in such a way that a caster with 60% casting regen AND evocation still can't manage their mana, then ALL casters are fucked. So really, in pve either mages will be well off in terms of regen, or all casters will be equally screwed by a system that doesn't work. Either way, there's no point in arguing over it.

Comparing regen rates by themselves doesn't tell us much. A priest at 30% is going to regen more than a mage at 30% because his gear has more spirit. And even that isn't the whole story, because you have to consider mana output as well as input. Even with identical amounts of spirit, a 30% warlock is spending mana faster than a 30% mage because Shadowbolt has a similar mana cost to Fireball but casts a half second faster. Of course warlocks can also Life Tap or Dark Pact if they run bone dry and out of other options, whereas a mage can only wand once we've expended gems, pots (now pot, singular), and Evocation. So we can't draw any conclusions without seeing the final versions of everything in play.

itchytf · 08/14/08, 9:47 PM

Originally Posted by Zaroua

Frostbolt > Frost Nova > Frostbolt > Deep Freeze > Ice Lance > Frost Bolt > Water Elemental Freeze > Frostbolt > Deep Freeze > Ice Lance > Frostbolt > Cold Snap > Frost Nova > Frostbolt > Deep Freeze > Polymorph > Frostbolt > Polymorph > Frostbolt > Polymorph > Frostbolt.

Most Mages and pretty much everyone who plays a non-Mage will whine so much that the change will never go through, and with good reason. I'd go so far as to say that Fear/Cyclone/Seduce should also somehow heal up the target in PvP to see how it balances it out.

I'm not really an arena player, but there is no way in hell you'll get this kind of combo through: dispel silence counterspell dispel fear dispel dispel trinket dispel pushback

The argument against polymorph not healing anymore died when it got diminishing returns, lasted 10 seconds in PvP and everyone got stupid amounts of health and resilience. Need I remind you of dot > dot > dot > fear > shadowbolt > fear > shadowbolt > fear > shadowbolt > dot > dot > dot > drain life?

Zeldyrr · 08/14/08, 9:57 PM

Originally Posted by Cwealm

And mark my words, I know what we will get in return to "fix" this.

Spirit on pvp gear.

That seems overly pessimistic to me. If you told me that raiding frost mages would have gotten shatter combos on bosses, I would have laughed. If you told me that arcane mages would get a nuke-on-the-run for pvp I would have laughed. If you told me that fire mages would get push back, knock up, and a DOT in pvp I would have laughed.

We'll see what Blizzard does but this dev team seems a lot different that the BC one.

radikal · 08/14/08, 10:46 PM

Anyone seen the new wanding? It's pretty nifty. No second GCD.

Talbain · 08/14/08, 11:07 PM

Well two proposals have been given, one is frequent Evocating (minute cooldown range), the other is converting damage to mana to try and create some form of band-aid for Mage downtime. Mages are the only class at this point that don't really have an effective way to convert something they do regularly into Mana (lifetapping for Warlocks, damage for Paladins, damage for Shadow Priests, Water Shield for Shamans, Aspect of the Viper for Hunters).

Nurru · 08/14/08, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by Talbain

Well two proposals have been given, one is frequent Evocating (minute cooldown range), the other is converting damage to mana to try and create some form of band-aid for Mage downtime. Mages are the only class at this point that don't really have an effective way to convert something they do regularly into Mana (lifetapping for Warlocks, damage for Paladins, damage for Shadow Priests, Water Shield for Shamans, Aspect of the Viper for Hunters).

Shadow Priest ability costs are balanced around the regen VT gives already, so you can't compare VT to something like Water Shield or Lifetap. A more correct comparison would have been Dispersion and Meditation.

Talbain · 08/14/08, 11:13 PM

I was more referring to Spirit Tap, but you're correct in any case.

More on topic: can you explain the changes to wanding in more detail? I.e. is wanding off the GCD now so that it doesn't interrupt casts?

aikiwoce · 08/14/08, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by Talbain

I was more referring to Spirit Tap, but you're correct in any case.

More on topic: can you explain the changes to wanding in more detail? I.e. is wanding off the GCD now so that it doesn't interrupt casts?

From what I heard, the first wand "attack" triggers the GCD, but every wand "attack" after that doesn't. It's more like a channeled spell now. You pay for the GCD at the beginning, but if you want to cancel it and cast something else you can.

MetallicaRulez0 · 08/14/08, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by Cwealm

Most of the mage concerns are pvp and not pve related.

I'll agree with an above poster and say this is most certainly not true. If you've been following the theoretical numbers for various other classes (Fire Locks and BM Hunters specifically), you'll see we're pretty far behind with no real utility to make up for this gap. Focus Magic is far too mana intensive as a 50 charge effect, and getting Winter's Chill requires a pretty substantial DPS loss (though you also get a pocket shadow priest in the form of WE if you're this deep in the tree). I personally have already informed my guild leader that unless I see a little more promise out of the Fire or Frostfire builds, I'll be rerolling Hunter for WotLK.

The above wasn't meant to be any sort of "QQ Mages suck" type post, but I guess it sorta reads that way. I'm just disappointed that the class I've been playing for over 3 years is in such a sorry state.