[Mage] WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 23

Nurru · 05/29/08, 1:41 AM

Originally Posted by Alvinrod

It's possible that T7 gear will give AB some coefficient.

Assuming that gear from here until the end of time will include set bonuses to improve AB's coefficient is bordelline crazy.

Finkum · 05/29/08, 2:17 AM

Originally Posted by alvinrod

It's possible that T7 gear will give AB some coefficient. I think that Blizzard must realize that AB is the main Arcane nuke. Also it's necessary to consider that the nature of the spell makes if fairly effective even without the large coefficient buffs that fire and frost receive simply because it casts one second faster (at most) than the speed at which its coefficient is based. Currently, it's the only spell that behaves that way. Technically it has a built it ~14% coefficient buff just from that alone which puts it on par with empowered fireball.

The huge bump to the base damage may make it more viable considering that it needed to rely on 2pc T5 in order to do well previously. It will eventually be surpassed by the other specs, but that doesn't mean that it won't be viable for a while at least. AB's average damage is only 25 points lower than fireball's at level 80. Just because arcane is based around a set bonus right now doesn't mean that it will be in WotLK.

Until we have good numbers and a good model for all of the talents and new abilities I don't think it's fair to discount Arcane. I really haven't seen many people presenting math or numbers so there's no proof at this point, only conjecture. I know there's no way to get exact results or information at this point, but if you can present some simulation numbers along with any assumptions that were used along with how talents were modeled we can make some rough estimates. Until then we can only argue about the utility merits of each spec or point out the differences between each.

If AB requires an additional 20% scaling factor now to be competitive (which it does) then it will need an equivalent scaling factor at 80 to remain competitive. The fact that AB has a better coefficient than its stacked cast time would normally give is irrelevant as this is as true now as it will be at 80, and yet 2t5 is still required to compete.

The point of my earlier post is that you can't just bump up the base damage and call the spell balanced. It will just lead to the spell being powerful at low gear levels and useless at higher levels.

Obviously we don't know how the final picture will look but, as things currently stand, AB cannot hope to compete as it is going into Wrath with effectively a -20% scaling factor compared to now (unless people are still running around in 2t5 at 80, which as others have pointed out, is unlikely; Blizzard will almost certainly nerf the set bonus as they did for 3t2 for priests).

xiaoxin21 · 05/29/08, 2:49 AM

They could make the 2 pc bonus an inscription of Arcane Blast, maybe not as powerful. Maybe 5% for T7 level. Some pattern to make it 10% for T8 level and so on. This will ensure that AB scales up well ,as the progression goes on deeper.

Alvira · 05/29/08, 2:49 AM

Originally Posted by manly

I'll be quite honest. I am not really concerned about the mage class as a whole. While I do believe the new deep-tree talents must be 'must-haves' for deep-tree specs (ie: talents that are better than other tree competing talents in the 25-35 branch), I am confident that the new light shun on the mage lack of synergies will make things much better. It is not often that Gurgthock/Praetorian makes a new thread about issues in wow, but generally the developers have listened. You can see pretty much everyone agreeing that something is off about mages as it is right now. I wouldn't expect really a huge makeover from Blizzard. But we can hope that we gain something akin to ferocious inspiration. That would fix both our scaling issues as well as our raid synergies without overpowering us for 5man content.

I finally read that thread that Gurgthock/Praetorian started. Was a very interesting read. I am not as confident as you though. :X The thing is, I don't think mage was originally concepted to be a "buff" type class. It was never seen as a hybrid, it definitely belongs into "pure DPS" class. So, I am not sure that Blizzard would consider putting in more raid synergistic buffs into mages. Unlike how they are much more free with the group or raid buffs they give to more hybrid classes. If its a new powerful group or raid buff, priests, shammy, paladins, etc are more likely to get it than us. If its a new powerful debuff, then locks are a better candidate conceptually than us, because locks were meant to be the class with the powerful curses (debuffs) in the first place. I think its telling that we don't even see much cross tree synergies in the new wotlk talents much less group wide or raid wipe. What happened to the trend of talents like shatter and elemental precision?

About the best we can hope is some elemental based (either fire, frost or arcane) debuff that benefits other users of the same school like how scorch imcreases fire damage on the target by 15% and how winter's chill increases the crit rate on frost by 10%. And personally, I hope they don't take things too far in that direction either. I would be depressed if I was told I have to spec frost just because it gives more synergy or damage to the new deathknights, or if I was told I can only spec fire because all the locks are fire locks now and they simply must have my scorch debuff up... :X

Nurru · 05/29/08, 2:52 AM

Originally Posted by xiaoxin21

They could make the 2 pc bonus an inscription of Arcane Blast, maybe not as powerful. Maybe 5% for T7 level. Some pattern to make it 10% for T8 level and so on. This will ensure that AB scales up well ,as the progression goes on deeper.

We don't know enough about Inscription to really speculate this, but either way this is just a weak band-aid fix at best. Rather than think of ways to continue spamming AB through Wrath, perhaps people could put better use of their time to thinking about why Blizzard is adding something like Arcane Barrage to deep arcane (though the current coefficient must be a mistake).

manly · 05/29/08, 3:19 AM

Originally Posted by Finkum

If AB requires an additional 20% scaling factor now to be competitive (which it does) then it will need an equivalent scaling factor at 80 to remain competitive. The fact that AB has a better coefficient than its stacked cast time would normally give is irrelevant as this is as true now as it will be at 80, and yet 2t5 is still required to compete.

The point of my earlier post is that you can't just bump up the base damage and call the spell balanced. It will just lead to the spell being powerful at low gear levels and useless at higher levels.

Obviously we don't know how the final picture will look but, as things currently stand, AB cannot hope to compete as it is going into Wrath with effectively a -20% scaling factor compared to now (unless people are still running around in 2t5 at 80, which as others have pointed out, is unlikely; Blizzard will almost certainly nerf the set bonus as they did for 3t2 for priests).

Its not only 20% more dps. The 2pcT5 significantly increases dpm in addition to 20% more dps. I wonder why nobody mentioned this yet?

I do expect the set bonus to go, and unless they heavily boost the numbers I wouldn't expect similar results.

However, too many external factors are unknown to really make any real conclusions. Maybe the new gear will have an assload of int/spi making the spec favored over the rest. We don't know. We have no idea how bosses will work out. Maybe the spec will just tend to be unsuited for the fights at hand. I'm not even sure about mana potions at this point. Or the new mana regen mechanics. And if all of this were not enough, the moonkin aura might skew the spec totally out of the loop. Hell, if all of that weren't enough, maybe warlocks will be forced into firespec because their multipliers will turn out of whack for fire spec (I wouldn't be too surprised actually to see it happen -- for as long as DS and ruin exists). All of those factors will have an influence on the ultimately recommended raid spec of choice (tm).

Deedre · 05/29/08, 4:25 AM

Arcane is getting a 9% bump to spirit, which to some extent addresses the dpm issue.

Azzuro · 05/29/08, 4:43 AM

Originally Posted by alvinrod

It's possible that T7 gear will give AB some coefficient. I think that Blizzard must realize that AB is the main Arcane nuke. Also it's necessary to consider that the nature of the spell makes if fairly effective even without the large coefficient buffs that fire and frost receive simply because it casts one second faster (at most) than the speed at which its coefficient is based. Currently, it's the only spell that behaves that way. Technically it has a built it ~14% coefficient buff just from that alone which puts it on par with empowered fireball.

The huge bump to the base damage may make it more viable considering that it needed to rely on 2pc T5 in order to do well previously. It will eventually be surpassed by the other specs, but that doesn't mean that it won't be viable for a while at least. AB's average damage is only 25 points lower than fireball's at level 80. Just because arcane is based around a set bonus right now doesn't mean that it will be in WotLK.

Until we have good numbers and a good model for all of the talents and new abilities I don't think it's fair to discount Arcane. I really haven't seen many people presenting math or numbers so there's no proof at this point, only conjecture. I know there's no way to get exact results or information at this point, but if you can present some simulation numbers along with any assumptions that were used along with how talents were modeled we can make some rough estimates. Until then we can only argue about the utility merits of each spec or point out the differences between each.

Also it's necessary to keep in mind that in WotLK that 10 man raids will probably be important for a large portion of players. I imagine that most people to spend time here will be participating in 25 mans, but that doesn't mean that the ideal mage spec is the same for each.

If AB is to be Arcane's main nuke, as it is now, then what is the future of Arcane Missiles? Will it be an antiquated spell used only in pre-2.4 rotations?

Lileith · 05/29/08, 5:00 AM

Originally Posted by Nurru

We don't know enough about Inscription to really speculate this, but either way this is just a weak band-aid fix at best. Rather than think of ways to continue spamming AB through Wrath, perhaps people could put better use of their time to thinking about why Blizzard is adding something like Arcane Barrage to deep arcane (though the current coefficient must be a mistake).

My views on Arcane Barrage, Netherwind Presence and Incanter's Absorbtion,is they are made for pvp.

Arcane Barrage adds nice dps while beeing focused/running:
AB, Fireblast, AB, CoC, AB, sheep on healer ,AB ect

I think the goal of Arcane Barrage is to be close from what the warlock can currently do with their instant dots (average dps while focused)
The pve uses are of course very low due to low scaling.

Netherwind Presence brings burst while beeing focused ,when Netherwind Presence procs, just ask your rogue to blind:
AP/trinket + instant fireball +AB+pom pyroblast+AB will be a very good burst , and still can be done while moving.
The pve impact remain very low as it was pointed out few pages before

Incanter's Absorbtion brings more synergy with priest for 33 and finally something that people will think about before focusing us. Right now there is no point in not focusing a mage, this talent with the new shatter armor
will be a very good addition to the whole "dps while beeing focused" and "you'd better hit something else" thing.

Arcane Focus beeing changed to 3% hit only is also a big nerf for pve (which doesn't even balance the 3/4% crit won with Potent Spirit).

Overall I don't think Blizzard want us to use only arcane spell in pve, Arcane Blast will remain the best way to make sure we don't waste mana (end the fight with more than 0-5% mana) and won't need more than 33 points in Arcane to be efficient.

Aeryn · 05/29/08, 7:21 AM

Originally Posted by Finkum

If AB requires an additional 20% scaling factor now to be competitive (which it does) then it will need an equivalent scaling factor at 80 to remain competitive. The fact that AB has a better coefficient than its stacked cast time would normally give is irrelevant as this is as true now as it will be at 80, and yet 2t5 is still required to compete.

I'm putting all my hopes in the new AB ranks. As far as I'm concerned, the 2t5 bonus was only so powerful because they forgot to add AB rank 2 at level 70 (similar to Incinerate from warlocks). We had to make due with a spell that was 6 levels below all other nukes, which had level 70 versions. So they had to make up with the bonus. Looking at alpha screenshots, the fact that there's a new AB rank immediately at level 71 speaks volumes to me, namely that AB had indeed been neglected (there's another rank at 76, last one at 80). And with competitive ranks I don't think it would lag as far behind as now without 2t5.

Cryic · 05/29/08, 9:51 AM

Originally Posted by Aeryn

I'm putting all my hopes in the new AB ranks. As far as I'm concerned, the 2t5 bonus was only so powerful because they forgot to add AB rank 2 at level 70 (similar to Incinerate from warlocks). We had to make due with a spell that was 6 levels below all other nukes, which had level 70 versions. So they had to make up with the bonus. Looking at alpha screenshots, the fact that there's a new AB rank immediately at level 71 speaks volumes to me, namely that AB had indeed been neglected (there's another rank at 76, last one at 80). And with competitive ranks I don't think it would lag as far behind as now without 2t5.

It's been pointed out before: Any new rank of AB will only move the bar for when AB spam is no longer optimal. The higher the base damage is, the longer / more dominate the spell is at the start of level 80 raiding. But at some point, it will be passed.

What has been neglected: Arcane becomes extremely powerful through gimmicks due to the odd mechanics of AB and AM, both of which "casts" and "hit" at sub 1.5 seconds. Nobody knows what new trinkets / meta sockets / procs will be around at level 80. I personally believe Blizzard does not want arcane to become uber etc through gimmicks, which is why they nerf them over and over (internal cooldowns on everything), yet I have no doubt several will make it through for at least a patch cycle or two.

Deedre · 05/29/08, 10:22 AM

If AB rank 3 gets me through tier 8, I'll be happy. I never expected any single spec to carry me through all content. Nothing lasts forever in this business.

C'mon folks, we are just borrowing trouble here. Band aids? This whole game is held together by bubble gum, spit, and hope.

Roywyn · 05/29/08, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Aeryn

I'm putting all my hopes in the new AB ranks. As far as I'm concerned, the 2t5 bonus was only so powerful because they forgot to add AB rank 2 at level 70 (similar to Incinerate from warlocks). We had to make due with a spell that was 6 levels below all other nukes, which had level 70 versions. So they had to make up with the bonus. Looking at alpha screenshots, the fact that there's a new AB rank immediately at level 71 speaks volumes to me, namely that AB had indeed been neglected (there's another rank at 76, last one at 80). And with competitive ranks I don't think it would lag as far behind as now without 2t5.

http://elitistjerks.com/761195-post3295.html
http://elitistjerks.com/553923-post2.html

Let's assume 1800 damage for fire, and 2000 damage for arcance (250 more from Mind Mastery, 50 less from gemming intellect over damage/haste).
That's taking the best Sunwell gear and adding a good 10% on top of that as a guess for level 80 blue gear.

Arcane Blast

Arcane Blast rank 1: 195 mana, 648 to 752 arcane damage.
Arcane Blast rank 4: 335 mana, 912 to 1058 arcane damage.

Arcane Blast then is 2129 damage for rank 1 and 2414 for rank 4 on average before multipliers, a 13.4% increase.

Let's slap on 2T5, that should be a ~120 spell damage equivalent loss from worse stats at sunwell level. Let's assume a 150 loss for level 80 blues.

Then Arcane Blast becomes 2426 damage for rank 1 and 2768 for rank 4 on average before multipliers, while costing 20%/(1+3*75%) = 6.2% more mana.

I think this shows pretty well how good 2T5 is, and how good it scales.
Rank 4 without 2T5 hits as hard as rank 1 with 2T5 while costing 6% less mana.

That's not accounting for the changed based mana costs - I'll leave that out because the mana cost of everything seems out of whack right now.
It's alpha and 3 classes don't have talent trees and everything is just leaks/datamined.

Fireball

Fireball rank 13: 425 mana, 649 to 821 fire damage, 84 fire damage over 8 sec.
Fireball rank 16: 655 mana, 888 to 1132 fire damage, 116 fire damage over 8 sec.

Fireball then is 2805+14 damage for rank 13 and 3080+19 for rank 13 on average before multipliers, a 9.9% increase.
(The 14 and 19 are 2/3 of one DoT tick - it will tick once and can't crit).

Comparison

With WotLK ranks and the (probable) removal of 2T5, Arcane Blast gains 6% mana efficiency while Fireball gains 10% more damage.
That's how awesome the new talent ranks are.

The major issue is scaling, and Arcane Blast scaling without 2T5 is really really bad.
The idea of putting it in again as a set bonus for a new tier set is just ... *headdesk*
It needs a 2T5 talent to compete.

Deedre · 05/29/08, 10:54 AM

Roywyn, once again, I point to the +9% gain in spirit arcane is getting. And as you point out, we do not know mana costs. We shouldn't assume that future ranks of AB will increase in casting cost linearly with damage. We just don't know.

And then there's the mana tax on burnout to consider, athough this too is something of a mystery in its particulars at the moment.

Rouncer · 05/29/08, 11:12 AM

Edit: Beaten by Roywyn...

Originally Posted by Aeryn

I'm putting all my hopes in the new AB ranks. As far as I'm concerned, the 2t5 bonus was only so powerful because they forgot to add AB rank 2 at level 70 (similar to Incinerate from warlocks). We had to make due with a spell that was 6 levels below all other nukes, which had level 70 versions. So they had to make up with the bonus. Looking at alpha screenshots, the fact that there's a new AB rank immediately at level 71 speaks volumes to me, namely that AB had indeed been neglected (there's another rank at 76, last one at 80). And with competitive ranks I don't think it would lag as far behind as now without 2t5.

I'm gonna disagree with this thought.

Current AB - 700 average damage base
Current Fireball - 719 average damage base

So Fireball is 2.7% more damage then AB

Datamined AB - 985 average damage base
Datamined Fireball - 1010 average damage base

So the Datamined Fireball is 2.5% more damage then the datamined AB

The issue is that Arcane Blast only gets 175% damage on crits and only has 3% more damage as a modifier and 12% crit from talents. Fireball gets a lot more depending on spec, not least of which is the 17% or so associated with increasing it's casting time. 2T5 basically makes up for that 17% and gives a little more (not least of which is a very large boost in DpM) but without that there is no way AB will be able to scale purely on the damage increase associated with the new ranks.

The new Arcane Tree rotations will have to be based off of Arcane Missiles and unless the math shows that it will competitive in dps with Fireball and Frostbolt, or they give us another gimmick set bonus like 2T5, Arcane seems pretty dead as a stand alone spec.

Improved Arcane Missiles does offer the largest coefficient increase of any spell in game and the spell is the most friendly single target spell for haste rating (since the amount needed to get it down to the GCD is so huge) so perhaps the increased Bonus spell damage associated with WoLK and the availability of large amounts of spell haste might be enough to make the spell viable.

Lhivera · 05/29/08, 11:24 AM

Anyone seen any info on the level 80 base regen factors for Spirit?

Ivorthemage · 05/29/08, 11:35 AM

Further thoughts:

1) Synergy of IA with school protection potions. Situationally could be better than mana pots.

2) I do agree that IA may be primarily intended as a PVP talent. No one likes to focus warriors because it gives them rage. Focusing the arcane mage with his array of instant cast options that get more deadly when you focus him could be an equally bad idea. The use of mana shield as an absorber is more viable in PVP as well, and makes improved mana shield a better talent. Consider a lock fight with magic absorbtion, improved mana shield, shatter shield (for the pet attacks) mage armor, arcane barrage, and IA. Spell locks, fears, and death coils last half as long, ~25% resistance rate, and the lock's dots and pet attacks give you a mild buff. Arcane is looking more and more like a viable pvp tree.

3) I won't be throwing away 2T5 until I see what they do. The damage bonus it gives is phenomenol, and easily outshines likely gear improvements between level 70 and 80 for two slots. I wouldn't even bank on a Blizzard nerf - they didn't get around to nerfing shammy T2 chain heal bonuses until very recently. If any build with AB spam is viable without T5 it will be absolutely lethal *with* 2T5 unless Blizz brings out the nerf bat.

4) All this said, I recall the speculation when he first saw the BC talents. Water elementals were a joke. Fire looked awesome for pvp, and spellsteal was OMGcool. On the bright side, mages correctly saw that ice lance rocked and that slow sucked.

Kugala · 05/29/08, 11:42 AM

Slightly OT question on scaling: What do people believe is proper scaling? Fixed difference or percent?

Take 2 spells that start at 10 DPS and 20 DPS.

With fixed difference, they're always 10 DPS apart. So eventually, 500 DPS and 510 DPS.

With percent, one is always half the other. So eventually, 500 DPS and 1000 DPS.

I don't think spells should scale outside of these limits (Inherently at least, debuffs, talents and secondary effects add another element), but at what point is the balance?

Lileith · 05/29/08, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Improved Arcane Missiles does offer the largest coefficient increase of any spell in game and the spell is the most friendly single target spell for haste rating (since the amount needed to get it down to the GCD is so huge) so perhaps the increased Bonus spell damage associated with WoLK and the availability of large amounts of spell haste might be enough to make the spell viable.

Improved Arcane Missiles offer the largest coefficient (9%/sec), but it doesn't mean It scale the best with spellpower.

If you gain 100 spellpower with Arcane Missiles:

you will get 188*1.03= 193.64 damages over 5 secondes for 38.72 dps

If you gain 100 spellpower with Fireball

you will get 115*1.10*1.15*1.03 = 149.83 damages over 3 secondes for 49.9 dps

And I'm not even counting the impact of critical strikes (3% for AM, 9% for Fireball , 175% for AM and 210% for Fb)

Arcane Missiles Scaling makes this spell worthless.

Concerning "haste friendly" I don't really see your point 1% haste means 1% dps increase as long as you are above gcd, and fire mage are still very very far from beeing limited by gcd :p

The only point of Arcane Missiles was the lightning capacitor combo, maybe that combo prevented the dev team from seeing how poor that spell is.

Rouncer · 05/29/08, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Lileith

Concerning "haste friendly" I don't really see your point 1% haste means 1% dps increase as long as you are above gcd, and fire mage are still very very far from beeing limited by gcd :p

The only point of Arcane Missiles was the lightning capacitor combo, maybe that combo prevented the dev team from seeing how poor that spell is.

Well take a look at that Improved Moonkin talent and tell me how far we are away from Fireball hitting the GCD.

If that talent actually makes it to live then you will have Fire mages butting into the GCD with a normal amount of haste but not Arcane Mages spamming Arcane Missiles and that is what I was referring to.

This thread is supposed to be looking at mage info for WoLK so maybe you should take a look at the other things that come with that instead of sticking your head in the dirt and saying that Fire mages are very far from being limited by the GCD :p

Lileith · 05/29/08, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Well take a look at that Improved Moonkin talent and tell me how far we are away from Fireball hitting the GCD.

Even with proced Improved Mookin Aura It would take an other 50% haste to reach global cooldown on Fireball (which is around 785 haste rating, I won't call that a normal amount of haste)

Deedre · 05/29/08, 12:27 PM

Edit: deleted.

Deedre · 05/29/08, 12:54 PM

After taking a closer look at the base spell increases from 70 to 80, it turns out that fireball is gaining no less that 40%.

It is in fact the single largest scaling increase in the game, even over icelance and AB, both clocking in around 35% increases. The earlier post looking at this made the boo boo of comparing rank 14 fireball to the new max rank; but rank 14 fireball doesn't exist on live.

So AB isn't making up any ground at all. It is in fact losing ground relative to fireball, although this may be partially offset by spirit gains.

Edit: and frostbolt is also increasing by 35%, btw. Same mistake was made, no rank 14 frostbolt on live.

Vontre · 05/29/08, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by Lhivera

I've missed something, then. What's changed regarding Arcane Missiles?

If I know how blizzard thinks, which I don't, then I'm presuming that Netherwind Presence is no accident, but specifically designed to take advantage of the AM proc synergy we endlessly rambled on about with the MSD. As a talent this is extremely appropriate and not at all overpowered. The modeling I've done indicates that with a chance to proc each wave, AM is finally pulling respectable dps, while also taking advantage of its 'buff everything' philosophy. An elegant solution.

Rouncer · 05/29/08, 1:10 PM

Originally Posted by Lileith

Even with proced Improved Mookin Aura It would take an other 50% haste to reach global cooldown on Fireball (which is around 785 haste rating, I won't call that a normal amount of haste)

I have 256 haste rating on my raiding gear and I don't have the sliver or the skull. Haste Effects are multiplied by orther Haste Effects and then multiplied by total Haste Rating (ratings are added together and then multiplied by all the separate effects). Which means that Bloodlust multiplies by other Haste effects, like Icy Veins AND the new Moonkin Aura, and by haste rating to give total haste.

Since the moonkin aura is 100% haste (not a haste rating) it gets multiplied by the 30% so under Bloodlust and then by the haste rating on my gear, 16.3% haste. So with my 256 haste rating you would actually have Fireballs casting in 0.99 seconds or UNDER the GCD and that's without popping any trinkets or using Icy Veins or having something like the Quag's eye proc. Pop Icy Veins along with Bloodlust while the Improved Moonkin Aura was active and you get Fireballs shooting out in 0.827 seconds, which makes it an issue to stack Icy Veins with Bloodlust and haste trinkets on the off-chance that Moonkin Aura will proc and you will lose dps.

Arcane Missiles just keeps firing since that much haste drops the channel down to 1.38 seconds which is still over the GCD.