Elitist Jerks [Mage] WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion

 08/08/08, 12:07 PM #4051 Prom Von Kaiser     Pyrene Orc Mage   Al'Akir (EU) Well Torment of the Weak is in Tier 4 just like scorch. It's not a debuff spell that can be applied to a target and therefore I'm assuming that it's simply an improvement to Slow (just like Malediction) increasing all dmg done (by the raid) to the target by 3% when Slow is up, tuning it to have a similar effect like scorch. However this wouldn't make sense, to have Totw earlier in the talent tree than Slow, if it was to affect slow only. Which leads me to think that Totw is simply a talent affecting the player only, targeting slowed targets and therefore having no effect on the raid dps. Either way, the wording is confusing at the very least and a clarification would be very nice PS: Wheres our new lvl 80 spell? Since shattered barrier was fused into the frost tree, there's still no news of our new lvl 80 spell. Last edited by Prom : 08/08/08 at 12:12 PM.
08/08/08, 12:09 PM   #4052
Qbert
Piston Honda

Moonrunner
 Originally Posted by Prom Hahahahahhaha, good one I'll be content when testing has progressed to the phase of number-adjusting and these words are put in practice. We all remember the famous "Jaw-breaking dmg" that mages would deal @ 70 but never really delivered.
While the fiasco during TBC beta certainly tainted confidence in their damage-tests, which made many false conclusions despite countless theorycrafters including myself informing them of their errors... I have to believe that they have learned from their mistakes. However, I feel like TBC is playing itself out again where Mage DPS is being handled like fragile egg while other classes are haphazardly getting substantial damage buffs (every intelligent mage cringed when they first read the burnout description and sighed when learning fury warriors will dual wield 2Hers). Not to mention that the current existing theorycraft appears like a carbon copy of TBC sheets; Mages well behind Destro Locks.

Hopefully when they get into the brunt of their damage testing they make the same realizations that we have and adjust accordingly. It won't be time to declare WotLK a repeat of TBC until we get word back from their tests saying that they're done without any significant tuning.

08/08/08, 12:39 PM   #4053
solbergb
Don Flamenco

Gnome Mage

Earthen Ring
 Originally Posted by Alvira From Lhivera's numbers, it looks close enough that I don't believe frostfire bolt will be overpowered. With crit rating requiring even more to make up 1% in wotlk, I believe its going to take a very long time before gear inflation will bring mage's crit rate anywhere near 50%. Even with the gear inflation levels in TBC, its not like mages currently average 50% crit rates easily in raid.
The higher spell damage coefficient of fireball will cause them to scale differently with gear as well, with fireball in the long run improving better as spellpower increases than frostfire.

Whether gear will boost high enough to make the coefficent win I can't say, but the trend should be that at 80, frostfire relative to fireball will degrade slowly as gear improves.

08/08/08, 12:40 PM   #4054
manly
Soda Popinski

Troll Mage

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Roywyn First, some general stuff. 1) Crit still sucks. With a high 3k spell power, 21% base crit (before molten armour), 10% gear haste and a 0/50/21 spec with CSD and EO, we get 326.25% crit damage.
I could be wrong, but I was under the impression this would give:
(150 + 25 + 50) * 1.03 * 1.06 * 1.4 = 343.917% crit
CSD and EO as far as I know apply on the entire pre-crit value, not just the crit bonus damage.

Also, I'd like to point out that while I enjoy the numbers, I can't stop but notice a big loophole. Which spec assume winter's chill and which spec doesn't ? I realise that having a deep frost mage is better than having a 0/30/41 for the express purpose of WC stacking (1- for faster WC stacking, 2- for the mana regen). The dps between both spec is similar too.

However, since I do not see EJ raiding with more than 2 mages in the future, and even if we did, I better plan for 2, what is more relevant to me is dps comparisons including explicit information about which spec has WC counted-in. You did for scorch, but not WC.

If I were to compare the specs, I'd much rather compare 0/30/41 with WC (his own) vs 0/50/21 without WC. Since WC will help warlocks I have a hard time to give much credence to a pure fire spec. Truth is, I don't think we can discredit the impact of WC on warlocks, at the cost of personal dps.

--- edit
Also, while a more minor detail. I think you should include a 'real' arcane blast spam spec. One dedicated purely to the cause. I'm thinking here 51/20/0. 3/3 master of elements a must, for DPM concerns. Maybe with that spec we can just about permanently keep AB spam a reality ?

Last edited by manly : 08/08/08 at 12:54 PM.

<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS.
Very Manly Staff

08/08/08, 12:44 PM   #4055
solbergb
Don Flamenco

Gnome Mage

Earthen Ring
 Originally Posted by Talbain It's pretty dramatic in that it kills Fire or Arcane from being viably competitive with Frost in PvP. Since there's no global DR, it's basically just another way for a Frost Mage to lock you down; it changes nothing for Fire obviously, and while it helps Arcane, it helps Frost far more, considering Ice Lance.
Actually the ability to proc impact off of arcane explosion is a pretty big deal for fire, speaking as a fire mage that uses impact. I even appreciate frost lance...if I'm chasing somebody and he's out of arcane explosion range, it's ice lance that I'm using. Proccing a stun, I can plant and hit him with something bigger, or run up and get him into AE range.

08/08/08, 12:49 PM   #4056
Muphrid
Don Flamenco

Gnome Mage

Stormrage
 Originally Posted by solbergb The higher spell damage coefficient of fireball will cause them to scale differently with gear as well, with fireball in the long run improving better as spellpower increases than frostfire. Whether gear will boost high enough to make the coefficent win I can't say, but the trend should be that at 80, frostfire relative to fireball will degrade slowly as gear improves.
An Empowered Fireball and Frostfire Bolt both have m/r values in the 900s. There is little to no scaling difference with +damage for the spells.

 08/08/08, 12:55 PM #4057 toth Von Kaiser   Senres Blood Elf Priest   Dragonmaw Pardon my ignorance, but what are m/r values?
08/08/08, 12:58 PM   #4058
Lhivera
Bald Bull

Human Mage

Aggramar
 Originally Posted by manly I could be wrong, but I was under the impression this would give: (150 + 25 + 50) * 1.03 * 1.06 * 1.4 = 343.917% crit CSD and EO as far as I know apply on the entire pre-crit value, not just the crit bonus damage.
It works like so:

1.5 * 1.03 * 1.06 = 1.6377 (this is CSD and EO affecting the entire pre-crit value)
1.6377 - 1 = 0.6377 (removing non-crit damage gives the new crit damage bonus, which is what Ice Shards and Burnout apply to)
0.6377 (base crit damage bonus) + 0.6377 (ice shards) + 0.5 * 0.6377 (Burnout) = 1.59425 (this is your new crit damage bonus)
1.59425 + 1 = 2.59425 (adding the base non-crit damage back into the total)
2.59425 * 1.4 (Ignite) = 3.63195 = 363.195% crit

Seems bizarre, but it does work that way. For a simpler example, here's a modern-day Frost Mage with a CSD:

1.5 * 1.03 = 1.545
1.545 - 1 = 0.545
0.545 + 0.545 = 1.09
1.09 + 1 = 2.09 = 209% crits (which is indeed what we see with Ice Shards + CSD)

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

08/08/08, 1:01 PM   #4059
solbergb
Don Flamenco

Gnome Mage

Earthen Ring
 Originally Posted by toth Pardon my ignorance, but what are m/r values?
What he said.

FFB presumably has a 3.0/3.5 coefficient, where improved fireball has a 1.15 coefficient.

.857 < 1.15 so presumably spell damage adds more for fireball than frostfire bolt

Hm...ok, that's too simplistic, because you multiply crits by the coefficient as well as the base damage.

If FFB crits bigger and more often by a sufficient amount than just fireball, then the coefficient
considering crit will be larger than fireball. Same goes for winters chill I guess.

08/08/08, 1:03 PM   #4060
Muphrid
Don Flamenco

Gnome Mage

Stormrage
 Originally Posted by toth Pardon my ignorance, but what are m/r values?
The ratio of base damage to coefficient. When speaking of relative scaling between spells, it's useful to note that the relative (percentage) increase in DPS for a spell for adding +damage is...

\begin{align} \frac{\Delta E}{E}=

The number 1/(m/r+d) appears in any stat equivalence formula that goes either to +damage from another stat or vice versa. Since smaller m/r values make the denominator smaller and the whole quotient larger, the percentage increase in DPS for a spell with a small m/r value is greater than it is for one with a large m/r value (that is, smaller m/r means the spell scales better from a relative standpoint).

When two spells have similar m/r values, it means that, if crit chance and other stats are held constant, increasing +damage will not alter the ratio between the two spells' damage very much. Hence, from a relative standpoint, both spells scale nearly equally with +damage.

Edit: latex mostly fixed. Apparently % signs in mboxes are bad. And I still can't get rid of the double ==.

Last edited by Muphrid : 08/08/08 at 1:11 PM.

 08/08/08, 1:10 PM #4061 Lhivera Bald Bull     Lhivera Human Mage   Aggramar It's important to note that when Muphrid talks about two spells scaling equally with +damage, he's referring to how much they scale as a percentage of their naked DPS, not how much they scale in terms of actual DPS itself. In other words, if Spell A goes from 100 DPS to 200 DPS, while Spell B goes from 200 DPS to 400 DPS, they both scaled by the same percentage (100%), even though the DPS gap between the two of them doubled. While I understand where Muphrid's coming from on his view of scaling, it isn't the way most people look at it (as far as most people are concerned, Spell B scales considerably better than Spell A). So it's worth clarifying, I think. At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
 08/08/08, 1:12 PM #4062 Deltrus Von Kaiser   Deltrus Draenei Mage   Rexxar Arcane looks like it has tons of potential but I really don't like how they pigeon hole you into using non arcane nukes. My vision of arcane would be using Abar/Ablast/MBAM cycles for extremely high dpm(1stack Ablast) then using arcane blast spam during heroism and trinkets. I have no idea why people think that blizzard should raise the debuff of arcane blast because as it stands right now it is a main nuke AND a mana dump. It is really too bad that the last calculator update and the Abar nerf really destroyed the possibility of using 1 stack Ablast as a filler; now we have to go and spend at least 15 points in other trees making arcane feel very bloated and preventing you from taking what I think are the fun talents that make arcane a cool tree(that shaman crit talent in 20 resto comes to mind here). What they really need to do is buff Abar and Ablast synergy or at least put Ablast back on arcane barrage so that it can be used as a filler instead of the other spells. Like Lhivera said it would be awesome for arcane to have focus mind and slow switched with also having focus mind buffed exponentially. My suggestion would be for all arcane spells to recharge the spells charges by 2-3 with every hit making it almost sustainable indefinably unless you are forced to stop casting while others cast. With this even if arcane get nerfed in dps the raid would still really want an arcane specced mage. Also PLEASE don't make us cast slow every 15 seconds, it would be hell. People with always spam Ablast as long as Ablast is the highest dps you can get with arcane. I would really like to avoid forcing people to use the same nuke the entire fight.(its boring) What I propose it a debuff of you that adds 2-4% extra mana cost every time you cast arcane blast and have that debuff removed by arcane barrage. This allows arcane blast to be a mana dump but makes it so that you wont be pigeon-holed into casting arcane blast while making arcane more interactive. Improved arcane missiles now has very little worth to the average mage. It either has to be baseline, merged with some other spell such as Arcane empowerment or it has to effect all arcane spells. What I really want is our level 80 spell to be is either A) telekinesis but with a better name B) A highly interactive and high dps AoE spell that all specs can use effectively. In conclusion: I spec arcane to be able to cast arcane spells not to be forced to use spells from other trees and to actually think about what I cast. I really would love if arcane becomes what I think it should become.
08/08/08, 1:17 PM   #4063
manly
Soda Popinski

Troll Mage

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Lhivera It works like so: 1.5 * 1.03 * 1.06 = 1.6377 (this is CSD and EO affecting the entire pre-crit value) 1.6377 - 1 = 0.6377 (removing non-crit damage gives the new crit damage bonus, which is what Ice Shards and Burnout apply to) 0.6377 (base crit damage bonus) + 0.6377 (ice shards) + 0.5 * 0.6377 (Burnout) = 1.59425 (this is your new crit damage bonus) 1.59425 + 1 = 2.59425 (adding the base non-crit damage back into the total) 2.59425 * 1.4 (Ignite) = 3.63195 = 363.195% crit Seems bizarre, but it does work that way. For a simpler example, here's a modern-day Frost Mage with a CSD: 1.5 * 1.03 = 1.545 1.545 - 1 = 0.545 0.545 + 0.545 = 1.09 1.09 + 1 = 2.09 = 209% crits (which is indeed what we see with Ice Shards + CSD)
Well that would sure change Roywyn' numbers quite significantly. His crit multiplier did felt low compared to what I'm used to see.

<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS.
Very Manly Staff

08/08/08, 1:28 PM   #4064
Muphrid
Don Flamenco

Gnome Mage

Stormrage
 Originally Posted by Lhivera It's important to note that when Muphrid talks about two spells scaling equally with +damage, he's referring to how much they scale as a percentage of their naked DPS, not how much they scale in terms of actual DPS itself. In other words, if Spell A goes from 100 DPS to 200 DPS, while Spell B goes from 200 DPS to 400 DPS, they both scaled by the same percentage (100%), even though the DPS gap between the two of them doubled. While I understand where Muphrid's coming from on his view of scaling, it isn't the way most people look at it (as far as most people are concerned, Spell B scales considerably better than Spell A). So it's worth clarifying, I think.
Indeed. Lhivera has done a good job of translating my viewpoint. But, in my defense...

 Whether gear will boost high enough to make the coefficent win I can't say, but the trend should be that at 80, frostfire relative to fireball will degrade slowly as gear improves.
Emphasis mine, of course. When I saw that, I knew that was my cue.

To continue, we have m/r values;
Empowered Fireball: (1010 [on hit] + 116/4 [one tick]) / 1.15 = 903.5
Frostfire Bolt: 780 / .857 = 910

Pretty darn close, meaning that the ratio of Emp. Fireball DPS / Frostfire Bolt DPS doesn't vary much, if at all, as +damage is varied. Indeed, this is only a matter of crit.

Save for Arcane Blast and Barrage, all the mage's main raid nukes are around 900 or 950 for m/r. The difference is the crit.

And obviously with such a massive crit multiplier, Frostfire Bolt's crit scaling is going to blow everything else out of the water.

08/08/08, 1:29 PM   #4065
Xequecal
Piston Honda

 Originally Posted by Deltrus Arcane looks like it has tons of potential but I really don't like how they pigeon hole you into using non arcane nukes. My vision of arcane would be using Abar/Ablast/MBAM cycles for extremely high dpm(1stack Ablast) then using arcane blast spam during heroism and trinkets. I have no idea why people think that blizzard should raise the debuff of arcane blast because as it stands right now it is a main nuke AND a mana dump. It is really too bad that the last calculator update and the Abar nerf really destroyed the possibility of using 1 stack Ablast as a filler; now we have to go and spend at least 15 points in other trees making arcane feel very bloated and preventing you from taking what I think are the fun talents that make arcane a cool tree(that shaman crit talent in 20 resto comes to mind here). What they really need to do is buff Abar and Ablast synergy or at least put Ablast back on arcane barrage so that it can be used as a filler instead of the other spells. Like Lhivera said it would be awesome for arcane to have focus mind and slow switched with also having focus mind buffed exponentially. My suggestion would be for all arcane spells to recharge the spells charges by 2-3 with every hit making it almost sustainable indefinably unless you are forced to stop casting while others cast. With this even if arcane get nerfed in dps the raid would still really want an arcane specced mage. Also PLEASE don't make us cast slow every 15 seconds, it would be hell. People with always spam Ablast as long as Ablast is the highest dps you can get with arcane. I would really like to avoid forcing people to use the same nuke the entire fight.(its boring) What I propose it a debuff of you that adds 2-4% extra mana cost every time you cast arcane blast and have that debuff removed by arcane barrage. This allows arcane blast to be a mana dump but makes it so that you wont be pigeon-holed into casting arcane blast while making arcane more interactive. Improved arcane missiles now has very little worth to the average mage. It either has to be baseline, merged with some other spell such as Arcane empowerment or it has to effect all arcane spells. What I really want is our level 80 spell to be is either A) telekinesis but with a better name B) A highly interactive and high dps AoE spell that all specs can use effectively. In conclusion: I spec arcane to be able to cast arcane spells not to be forced to use spells from other trees and to actually think about what I cast. I really would love if arcane becomes what I think it should become.
I sort-of posted about this before, but 51/9/11 is absolutely ridiculous DPS by my calculations. By alternating casts of Arcane Barrage and Frostfire Bolt, and casting Arcane Missiles whenever you get a Missile Barrage proc, you seriously get to cheat on a lot of mechanics. Remember, the three spells you're casting are:

- A 3-sec cast spell with a 86% coefficient and 330% crit damage.
- A 1.5-sec cast spell with a 86% coefficient and 200% crit damage.
- A 2.5-sec cast spell with a 188% coefficient and 200% crit damage.

 Elitist Jerks [Mage] WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion